FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 66FAIRLANE on February 01, 2013, 12:50:30 AM
-
Just doing a bit of deep thinking about a project I have in mind. Will be freshening things up soon (well probably next year) and will most likely go 445 but thinking about going EFI. I have always wanted to make my own throttle body so here is the plan.
Tunnel wedge intake with injector bungs and homemade twin 4 barrel throttle bodies. I think this would look cool under a standard oval air cleaner in my Fairlane. I am thinking to buy Holley throttle plates as I am assuming at this stage they would be elliptical and hard to make and go from there. Probably 600 cfm as there would be no venturi or boosters in the flow so they would most likely flow around 650+ each.
Don't know a lot about EFI but am thinking I would need the following.
Injectors
Fuel rail (could be custom as TW intake runners look to be uneven)
TPS
MAP Sensor
Throttle Bodies
O2 Sensor(s)
Pump and Regulator
Brain Box
Idle Air Control Motor
Have I missed anything? If I decide to go ahead it won't be for a while and after I have gathered any info/help needed in the tech section here I will start a project thread.
Any thoughts?
-
Could you possibly use a pair pf 1850s gutted with the correct throttle arms installed? They are just going to flow air anyway. It would be a real deciever to the eye. I`m just thinking out of the box here.
-
I was going to take the same approach except use two GM 500 CFM throttle bodys and twin wide band oxygen sensors. The throttle body just needs the injector pod removed and a block off plate installed. Your CFM options are 450, 500 and 570, aftermarket throttle bodys come much larger. The other factor is you can buy adapter plates in rear, center and front to position them, also in any thickness and plenum configuration. I would go with the Holley HP system due to it's ability to configure to run two throttle bodys and two wide band sensors, also it is a self learning system with data logging. I have used this setup before and installed it for others, it offers excellent throttle response and way better fuel economy. Also it pulls consistent throughout the RPM range with no flat spots.
-
My advise would be to pick the brain box first, because that selection will drive a lot of your other selections. If you are computer savvy, I'd suggest a Megasquirt system, because they are fairly inexpensive and well sorted out. I've also used the FAST system with good results, although it was pretty expensive. My ems-pro system worked, but gave me starting problems in some cases. Both of my Mustangs are now running the Megasquirt MS3X system, and the Galaxie uses the FAST system.
You will typically need an electronic ignition setup to use with the EFI box, either a crank trigger setup or a distributor with a "crank" sensor, and maybe a cam sensor if you want to go full sequential injection with the EFI. You will also need an Air Temperature Sensor (ATS), Coolant Temperature Sensor (CTS), Throttle Position Sensor (TPS), and a Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP). And of course the wideband O2 sensors for tuning. Your fuel pump needs to be able to deliver the fuel at 45 psi or higher. The idle air control motor is optional, and I have never used one; I just use a normal hard throttle stop.
I think rather than just buying the throttle butterflies you might be better off buying a carb base plate, and machining a top to fit. Then you don't have to worry about the fit of the butterflies to your throttle body.
Last comment is once you go EFI, you'll never go back. The tunability is unbelievable.
-
I did.not think the fast had programmable auxiliary inputs and outputs so you would.need.to run.two ecm boxes in series. Plus it is.not self tuning so you gotta monkey with it, I can do that but it is a real pain and.does not compensate for density or elevation.
-
I'm in the process of changing my carbed 462 over to Powerjection 3. I chose it because I wanted the benifits of injection and looks of a carb (no big fuel rails on my vintage intake). I'm still working on the plumbing, so no report yet. But it does look promising.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj114/powertvmedia/09_Tech%20Articles/Retroteck/p3.jpg)
This was over on the FFR forum.
(http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/IMG_1498.jpg)
-
Actually the FAST XFI box does compensate for density and elevation, via the MAP sensor and the ATS sensor. It will also self tune to a degree, via the O2 sensor. But for optimum performance you have to tune it yourself.
As far as Auxiliary inputs and outputs, if you mean functions like switching on and off cooling fans, electric water pumps, nitrous systems, etc., the FAST XFI box has all that too. It also has extensive datalogging capabilities. It is a very complete system, just expensive.
-
It will run two TPS sensors, Idle air motors and two wide band sensors also? I tried a tuner AEM system once, it was a constant headaches. It would run great one day, the next I had to change the fuel map. Not very dependable.
-
It will run two wideband sensors, but not two TPS sensors and two idle air control motors. Why would you want to run two of those anyway? Seems to me that a single TPS and single IAC motor is the way to go, if you even want to run an IAC motor...
-
Im about to build a 8 idividual runner efi with a jays intake
adapter and 8 Opel Omega (Vauxhal something in australia
i think)throtle bodys I have the intake figured out and on
drawings but the electronics i leave to the younger generation ;D ;D
After two strokes i have hard to learn new things
Kinsler have o good guide to fuelinjection some one
here gave me a The link in some of my threads
-
I thought he mentioned two throttle body's on a duel quad intake was what he wanted?
-
You don't need the TPS on both throttle bodies, just on the one that is the primary throttle body. Same for the IAC.
-
How does the system know the position of the secondary then?
-
It doesn't need to know. The MAP sensor will tell the system how much manifold vacuum is there, and the fuel map adds fuel based on manifold vacuum. It is a speed density EFI system, so the TPS sensor doesn't affect the A/F ratio.
-
Hmm good to know, my Jeep is my next injection project. I thought the lack of another IAC would starve at idle and make it stumble. I haven't decided on the manifold yet but I will need long runners and idle to 5500 power with lots of torque maybe tpi with raised runner Brodix heads. Yes it is a Gm GASP, CHOKE did I say that here. But will be a 383 stroker with monster 9 ford high pinion axles.
-
Thanks for the input guys. I have considered using a carby base plate etc. but I really like the idea of making my own from scratch. I should be able to hold a fairly tight tolerance on the throttle bores so throttle blade fit shouldn't (famous last words!) be an issue. I have given this a fair bit of thought. The thing that concerns me most is the mixing and matching of components so they work together. I want use stuff as much as possible off the shelf that I can get here easily.
Jay, interesting you don't use an IAC motor. How does it idle on cold start up? I was also considering a simple solenoid for this job. Even maybe with a manual switch for fast and normal idle.
I have looked at all the aftermarket bolt on style stuff and while I like a lot about each one there doesn't seem to be one particular unit that ticks all my boxes and I reckon that a dual quad style set up would just be plain cool. Plus for some reason I have burning desire to make the bastards!
It will be costly and the body needs doing more than the motor. But hey, while it's out..........................
-
It idles lower on cold startup ;D I'm sure it would be smoother and a more reliable idle if I used an IAC, but with the cams I run the IAC tends to hunt around a lot, and I've had trouble getting them working properly. Shouldn't be an issue if you aren't going real radical on the cam. I didn't mean to discourage you from using one, just that its possible to go without.
-
Whife had an Opel 2,2injection they are known for burning
the IAC i got tired of changing them so i just plugged the
hose an gave it a litle throtle on start up. Works fine when
you figured out how much throtle ,but wont idle cold in the
winter
In sumer it idles after about 10 sec
-
My Jeep 4.2 HO had so many injection problems after replacing everything including the timing chain I pulled the engine and traded it for a 350 vortec crate engine that needed a rebuild LOL that engine was a gas guzzling, sputtering,wheezing, dog.
-
Having second thoughts about this now. The tunnel wedge intake concerns me. Realise now they are a Dove part and I don't want to spend a grand for a lawn sprinkler. What do you think my chances are of getting a decent one?
-
I've only bought one of those, but it was OK except for the water jacket openings in the intake. They extended down farther than the stock water openings, and when I first assembled the intake on the engine I had a leak there because I used a Victor Reinz gasket with a leak slot. After figuring out the problem I changed to Mr. Gasket intake gaskets without the leak slot, and they sealed up fine. Details on this are in my book.
-
The TW intake would be awsome with EFI.
Checkout DIYAuto tune for MegaSquirt info,click around that site for just about all the info you need on EFI.
I believe they sell individule injector bungs that can be plumbed for AN type hoses,that may give you a more "period correct" look without the tell tale fuel logs on both sides of the engine.
I think you will find with dual throttle bodies that they will both be about 99.5% closed to get it to idle down,efi seems to find the air it needs. I would also do a pair of carb bases for the throttle section,you could just about mount a 4" tube to the top if you wanted,LOL. A pair of used(up) Holleys gutted would do the job cheap, and trick the eye for sure.
If you havent done so yet look over some of Jays Road to Drag Week post for pieces of EFI tuning .