FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Sand hauler on May 10, 2020, 11:52:44 AM
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Discovered this while surfing the interwebs. Was wondering if anyone has used it, or thoughts on using it for there flat tappet motors ?
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I have not used 10w/30 Motorcraft but have ran Rotella 15w/40 for the last 9 years.
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Haven't run that. Look up Amsoil Z-rod. Lots of zinc and other flat tappet friendly ingredients. Not for a brand new engine.....only after sufficient break in. The Amsoil break in oil is mineral based, and has 2200 ppm zinc. I am sold on the stuff. We have been dynoing and running the break in oil for 500 miles, and then switch to the appropriate Amsoil synthetic after the break in. Their break in oil has friction modifiers to promote ring seal prior to putting the synthetic in there. Just my thoughts and opinions.
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I used the rotela also in the past as well as delo . This one here states right on the bottle over 1000 ppm zinc so there no wondering, just thought maybe it would be a more affordable option to the V1 and others. Idk what say you builders?
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A good point Blair, just thought I'd throw it out there as a possible option especially for the price
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I used the rotela also in the past as well as delo . This one here states right on the bottle over 1000 ppm zinc so there no wondering, just thought maybe it would be a more affordable option to the V1 and others. Idk what say you builders?
It says over 1000 ppm of phosphorus, not zinc. Two different things. Is there a further breakdown online?
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Haven't run that. Look up Amsoil Z-rod. Lots of zinc and other flat tappet friendly ingredients. Not for a brand new engine.....only after sufficient break in. The Amsoil break in oil is mineral based, and has 2200 ppm zinc. I am sold on the stuff. We have been dynoing and running the break in oil for 500 miles, and then switch to the appropriate Amsoil synthetic after the break in. Their break in oil has friction modifiers to promote ring seal prior to putting the synthetic in there. Just my thoughts and opinions.
Amsoil says their break-in oil has no friction modifiers. ???
I've mentioned this a while back, but a sit-down with the guy who runs Torco Oil near me resulted in his saying that anything over 1400 ppm zinc was detrimental, and 1100-1200 was the sweet spot. Any clue why he would say that? I mean, I believe you have success with Amsoil, don't jump to any conclusions. Too much of that lately around here.
Have you ever tried Amsoil for break-in and non-synthetic after that? You run the initial oil for 500 miles? Shouldn't the break-in oil be dumped to remove assembly lube and any particles that result? Thanks for your feedback.
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https://www.rockauto.com/Newsletter/#triviaq
Here's a link to the article I found on it from rock auto
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https://www.rockauto.com/Newsletter/#triviaq
Here's a link to the article I found on it from rock auto
Interesting. He mentions 1400 ppm also as the upper limit, as Torco told me for flat tappet cams. I wonder if the 2200 Blair uses is on roller cam engines.
I'm not buying that z and p are the same thing. I have seen numerous data sheets over the years, and they are always broken down separately. Here's an example. https://sharena21.springcm.com/Public/Document/18452/ff44b91e-cb81-e711-9c10-ac162d889bd3/8213a6c1-0cbd-e711-9c12-ac162d889bd1. However, they are pretty close. I suspect there's an effort going on to conflate the two using an average. Why else would Ford plaster that number on the oil bottle?
I suppose if you were to try and target a sweet spot, you could use the Ford oil and the "proper" amount of ZDDP additive. I think a lot of guys just dump the bottle into an oil change because math is too hard, and wind up with problems.
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Lol maybe so,I believe the 2200 ppm is just for the break in process or at least that's how I understand it. Just thought it'd be a good possible alternative on a tight budget.
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Lol maybe so,I believe the 2200 ppm is just for the break in process or at least that's how I understand it. Just thought it'd be a good possible alternative on a tight budget.
Blair did mention ring seal, but my thoughts revolve around camshaft break-in. We'll see.
Lots of good feedback elsewhere on the oil private labeled through Walmart. Seems a good choice for daily driving. Last time I checked msds, it had ZDDP in the middle of the pack.
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That's good to know , thanks for the info
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The two best builders, in my area, have recommended Driven to me and to steer away from synthetic, until it is broke in.
I will also look for the Amsoil Break In oil, too.
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Felony, I probably used a wrong term there. The "friction modifiers" I was referring to are designed to aid in ring seating, and are really a separate conversation from the zinc/phosphorus conversation. Before you can successfully change over to a synthetic, you MUST have ring seal. The R&D folks at Amsoil know this, and the break-in oil is formulated to aid ring seal on a properly prepped cylinder wall.
I wouldn't discourage a person from dumping the start-up oil fairly quickly, but my thoughts are to run the break in oil for the 500 miles. If that leads you to refill with more of the break in oil, I wouldn't see how that is a bad idea.
While the flat tappet cams get the most conversation, there are parts of the valvetrain, thrust bearings, cam thrust plate, timing chain and gears, etc., ........all places where direct oil pressure is not present, that benefit from zinc and phosphorus. While the OEMs went to roller tappets to cut down on zinc in order to keep from plugging up catalytic converters, I believe that roller lifters still benefit from high zinc when spring loads are higher than "stock", and new parts are wearing themselves into happy places.
I've had great success with the Amsoil "program" lately......I was just adding a little info that I thought might help. I was a VR1 fan for years, and poked a few holes in Valvoline Racing Oil cans when they were cardboard with metal tops........I think Valvoline is great oil, but I have gone another direction....
FWIW, I think Brad Penn break in oil is very good. The Driven would be my last choice. I have heard that the base stock before the additives is not the best......
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Blair, in the old days it was suggested, to properly seat rings, an aggressive wind-up and wind-down in gear, several times, was best. On a test stand, how would you break in rings along with the recommended procedure (20 min varying rpm) for breaking in a flat tappet cam?
That 500-mile break-in thing. What about a track-only engine that will never see 500 miles? Rumor has it you have built one or two of those. I mean, if it takes 500 miles for all the parts to find their happy place, is a race motor ever actually broken in, or does it spend its life not quite so happy?
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An engine does need to be loaded to seal up. Your 20 minute cam break in ( I do three 20 minute cycles) is not going to seal up the rings.
Hone procedure, and cylinder wall prep is different for a race piece than for a high miler. I like the 500 mile deal on a street engine for two reasons. One..... it is not going to seal as quick as a race engine, and two....the extra run time on the mineral oil is only going to insure that the rings are seated before putting the synthetic in there.
We run the heck out of race engines on the dyno. You can tell when they seal by the numbers it spits out over the first ten or so pulls. Also, you would lay a gold brick over what the rings cost for some of the race engines. Just a different set of circumstances.
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IMHO "diesel oil/Rotella" etc was an old school deal before specific oils like Brad Penn and the like came out. Most diesel oil is similar to current passenger car oil specs. Note that all new diesels have to run that low sulfur fuel with additives. Most current stuff has less need for ZDDP, etc. So if you think you're saving a dollar, you probably aren't. Buy the correct oil for your intended use.
That said, any flat tappet break in I've ever done was done with 10w-30 VR1 racing and the additive supplied by the cam mfg. And for ring break-in, I load the motor against the converter a few times, then it's ready for whatever - driving or racing. Can't exactly drive 500 miles in the dragster. With modern moly faced rings and proper bore finish, your rings are pretty much seated before the motor gets hot.
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I think modern rings with correct honing techniques goes a long way.
On the dyno, the rings are seated in about 3-4 good hard pulls. You can watch the power keep rising and then it will level off. Then it's time to start tuning.
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I think modern rings with correct honing techniques goes a long way.
On the dyno, the rings are seated in about 3-4 good hard pulls. You can watch the power keep rising and then it will level off. Then it's time to start tuning.
Ah yes, but you wouldn't want to run right in there and pour in the synthetic. I have seen the rings come undone and start losing power if you switch over too soon. I won't put the synthetic in until the 18-20 dyno pull mark, which is a fair amount of loaded run time after the power stops going up after the initial few pulls. Those rings need time to find a home before the really slick oil goes in.
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I think modern rings with correct honing techniques goes a long way.
On the dyno, the rings are seated in about 3-4 good hard pulls. You can watch the power keep rising and then it will level off. Then it's time to start tuning.
Ah yes, but you wouldn't want to run right in there and pour in the synthetic. I have seen the rings come undone and start losing power if you switch over too soon. I won't put the synthetic in until the 18-20 dyno pull mark, which is a fair amount of loaded run time after the power stops going up after the initial few pulls. Those rings need time to find a home before the really slick oil goes in.
What's the true power difference running non-synthetic? Or a blend like Motorcraft?
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Power difference depends on oil viscosity and other factors. I have seen 5 to 20 hp difference, depending on the situation. There are benefits other than just the power. I used to be a "never synthetic"-ER.......now I am a "synthetic when the time is right, and the procedure is right"-ER.
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I think modern rings with correct honing techniques goes a long way.
On the dyno, the rings are seated in about 3-4 good hard pulls. You can watch the power keep rising and then it will level off. Then it's time to start tuning.
Ah yes, but you wouldn't want to run right in there and pour in the synthetic. I have seen the rings come undone and start losing power if you switch over too soon. I won't put the synthetic in until the 18-20 dyno pull mark, which is a fair amount of loaded run time after the power stops going up after the initial few pulls. Those rings need time to find a home before the really slick oil goes in.
Agreed. I don’t use synthetic, so I dont have to worry about that.
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My engine test stand will have a shorty bell that was hooked to a pump on a 428FT rig. Can I grassroots something up to create a load, or am I a terminal dreamer? ???
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I once changed from regular to synthetic on the dyno. I don't remember the weights, but they were similar. Gained 5 hp, about 1 percent. We had done somewhere around 16 dyno pulls on the motor so it should have been mostly broken in. It might have been over 20 pulls. I like to try stuff on the dyno....we were messing with spacers, jetting, and timing a lot. And different size headers.
I know that small of a difference could be within the noise of the dyno. I think it is real, though.
paulie
Oh yeah, using 15W50 Mobil One with over 400 lbs open pressure on a solid flat tappet.
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I use AmsOil break in oil in my flat tappet engines, even though it is expensive. Haven't lost a camshaft yet with the AmsOil. The oil will turn black after about 12-15 dyno pulls on break-in, so it should be changed. I go straight to the oil I am going to run in the engine, either a 10-30W synthetic, or 5-20W synthetic, and haven't had an issue with oil consumption this way. Going to a lighter oil will give an increase in hp simply due to the oil pump not having to work as hard. Also, have seen a dyno mule with nearly 300 pulls lose up to 10 hp power slowly, only to have it come back in one pull after a fresh oil and filter change. Joe-JDC
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I'm not really an oil snob, per se. I use VR-1 for street engines and Brad Penn for my race stuff. Never have tried Amsoil. Driven/Joe Gibbs smells like rusty anus. A 5hp difference on a dyno session can be anything and on higher horsepower engines, a 5hp bump could literally be within the error margin of the dyno.
What I mainly look at is how the bearings look when engines come back in for freshen up. If the bearings look like I could leave them in because they look new, then I consider that a success. I've had some dry sump high rpm engines come back for freshen up and I had to argue with myself whether I should put the bearings right back in and save the customer some money, or charge them for a new set of bearings and re-measure/verify, because $300 of bearings on a $40k engine is kind of a drop in the bucket.
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Oh yeah, using 15W50 Mobil One with over 400 lbs open pressure on a solid flat tappet.
Did you brake it in with those springs? If so, what cam and lifters?
Also, what is considered the max spring pressure that can be used on break in and can higher pressures be used with higher zink content?
I've read that the zink, depletes in use.
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Oh yeah, using 15W50 Mobil One with over 400 lbs open pressure on a solid flat tappet.
Did you brake it in with those springs? If so, what cam and lifters?
Also, what is considered the max spring pressure that can be used on break in and can higher pressures be used with higher zink content?
I've read that the zink, depletes in use.
I took the inner springs out for break in. My understanding is that zinc does get used up.
paulie
edit: I think I used 0.050" taller retainers for brake in, too. It was a long time ago.
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My understanding is that zinc does get used up.
paulie
Does zinc embed? If so, x amount would do so and "appear" to be depleted. If not, then why not continue using 2200 ppm after break-in? If so, is there an advantage to soaking a cam and lifters with break-in oil for x days prior to assembly.
And for rings, has there been a discussion here on plateau honing?
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I was told by an oil company tech here in Australia yesterday (Nulon) that ZDDP gets 'used up' as ash. So as it is loaded between surfaces it turns to ash & is carried away by the rest of the oil.
Not saying its true or not. Just what I was told.
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I was told by an oil company tech here in Australia yesterday (Nulon) that ZDDP gets 'used up' as ash. So as it is loaded between surfaces it turns to ash & is carried away by the rest of the oil.
Not saying its true or not. Just what I was told.
That is what I read about it, also.
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My understanding is that zinc does get used up.
paulie
Does zinc embed? If so, x amount would do so and "appear" to be depleted. If not, then why not continue using 2200 ppm after break-in? If so, is there an advantage to soaking a cam and lifters with break-in oil for x days prior to assembly.
And for rings, has there been a discussion here on plateau honing?
My understanding is that it is sacrificial, as far as completely used up in a 5-9 quart system?...I have no idea. Maybe scouring some of the used oil analysis information on Bobistheoilguy could tell us that, but I haven't done it
I'd also be interested in seeing how fussy a modern ring pack is, seems like the hone, thickness and shape of the ring, and ring material would make a huge difference on break in, but in the end, fire it on the pump, always checking for leaks, dumping the oil/filter, why waste the expensive synthetic...when you can waste expensive dino oil? LOL
As far as continually needing zinc, to a significant extent, a lifter and cam, under pressure and heat, will burnish, which essentially "pressure-polish" which hardens and smooths the surface, that's why the break in is important, and why, in theory, once break in is done, it usually stays done
I do think though that flat tappet cams do need "enough" zinc after the fact too. I think that number is lower though, but at that point, why bother going that much lower? At the levels provided in a specified oil mix, it's not hurting anything, and every wear point gets to use it
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Ah yes, but you wouldn't want to run right in there and pour in the synthetic. I have seen the rings come undone and start losing power if you switch over too soon. I won't put the synthetic in until the 18-20 dyno pull mark, which is a fair amount of loaded run time after the power stops going up after the initial few pulls. Those rings need time to find a home before the really slick oil goes in.
I'm sure that the 7.3L gas motor in our new 2020 F-350 never had conventional oil in it. Just as a point of reference. I haven't felt a need to run synthetic in any of my race engines, VR1 10w30 does what I need and its reasonably affordable. Everything else here gets full syn, especially the trucks.
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Sorry for the tangent, but what do you think of the 7.3 so far?
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I tend to think that cars/trucks leaving the assembly line do not have synthetic in them, but a break-in oil. Not 100% sure on that, but knowing that we, as engine builders, are 100X more careful with honing techniques, ring filing, piston/cylinder clearance, etc., than the OEM assembly lines, I can't see how they just throw synthetic in from the get-go.
Most vehicles now don't get their first oil change until 3000-5000 miles, so that would be a great time to introduce ring seating procedures with conventional oil.
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I tend to think that cars/trucks leaving the assembly line do not have synthetic in them, but a break-in oil. Not 100% sure on that, but knowing that we, as engine builders, are 100X more careful with honing techniques, ring filing, piston/cylinder clearance, etc., than the OEM assembly lines, I can't see how they just throw synthetic in from the get-go.
Brent, I do know for a fact that Corvettes and my Audi (all Audis I was told) do leave the factory with syn oil and syn oil is recommended thereafter. It is (or was) a head-scratcher to me when I learned this some years ago. Yet, I do think the reason why is captured in your post: finely honed cylinders, moly-type tight and narrow ring packs and carefully set clearances. Just my opinion on that.
On edit: I was curious and found this from Consumer Reports. 70% of US made cars leave the factory with syn oil or a blend. I was surprised by that little factoid!
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-maintenance/should-you-use-synthetic-oil-in-your-car/
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I can't say for sure about Ford assembly line, but I know that a big truck manufacturer I did some work for filled everything with synthetic right off the end of the assembly line no matter who's engine, transmission or drivetrain the truck was spec'd with. They used whatever spec oil was called for, but it was all synthetic. Those engines are not pre-run before they are installed in the truck. First time they get started is with the synthetic oil in them and end up with about 1.8 miles on them with a quick chassis dyno to test for rated power and brake force and then parked until they're shipped to the dealer.
The "level" of EP additive in the oil (traditionally a zinc based EP additive package is used but there are others besides ZDDP and some not even based on a zinc compound) doesn't make the additive "work" better, it just lasts longer so the additive makes it until you're next oil change. The higher the additive levels (typically measured in whole by comparing TBN/TAN numbers) the longer you can theoretically run the oil before the additive package is depleted. An oil with 500ppm of zinc doesn't work half as well as preventing a lifter from going flat as an oil with 1000ppm.
Having had the chance to work with some oil companies directly, and having ready 100's of thousands of used oil samples (they add up fast when you go through 800 gallons of engine oil a week) and having done some testing on my own, any good quality oil CHANGED on a reasonable mileage or time basis will work fine for 99% of anything that needs oil.
There are always exceptions where an engine on the dyno doesn't seat the rings correctly with synthetic, or insert failure point of your choice here. But with the modern additive packages and clean stable base oils we have now it's just a lot less of an issue. I think that for flat tappet cams making sure you order max taper on the lobes and not buying a shelf cam does wonders for durability. I've had very little trouble since I started ordering them that way, but I don't do nearly the HiPo gas engines as the builders on here so my results my not align quite the same. And I've mostly switched to running hyd rollers in most stuff that isn't real racey, for the little extra in cost I personally feel the gains are well worth it on several levels.