FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Nightmist66 on May 09, 2020, 08:46:11 PM
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I am getting a few things bolted together in my car finally and today I decided to put the clutch linkage and z bar back in. I now have a Quick Time SFI bell for a toploader and a stock fork. I know others have mentioned fitment issues with the newer bells. I have not modified the length of the stock z bar. This is my current solution for alignment issue:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG6PkbHp/20200509-145010.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bZ5Hkn17)
Any foreseeable issues with it? This is a piece of hardened 3/8" rod. I did not feel anything funny throughout pedal travel. seems firm and smooth.
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It might want to fold up if the clutch is stiff. The other thing it might do is try to kick the fork off the pivot as it will be pushing downward on it...despite the bend. I'd try it like that though.
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I like it as long as the rod stays where it is and doesn't flip over I'm not seeing any problem. Years and years ago a friend made me a clutch rod out of tool steel that I still use but to this day I'm not happy with the Z-bar and alignment with a Lakewood. Might have to redo something similar next winter.
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Is that z bar a Fairlane piece? I’m assuming you removed the factory pin to install the rod. The rod seems short, is that due to the window in that bell being higher than the stock location? I can’t tell from the pic. Could you fab the same piece out of 7/16” stock?
I know you are very good at engineering stuff.
JB
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Looks fine to me. Worst case, you could gusset or sleeve the bend to strengthen it.
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The bend is working against you, but if the material can hold the pressure from the clutch, certainly no issues.
If you start losing adjustment, you'll know it wasn't strong enough
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A few years ago I ran into a problem where my z-bar was hitting my headers. It is a Crite's one piece z-bar. I laid it out on cad and wound up shortening the end of the z-bar and relocate the pin. I didn't notice any increase in pedal effort. Been fine for over 10 years.
(http://www.fairlanet.com/images/zbar.jpg)
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Looks fine to me. Worst case, you could gusset or sleeve the bend to strengthen it.
As Brent noted, you do need to gusset it, sleeving would work too it one could match the contour.
I had a shifting problem with my '70 Mach 1 and thought my big feet (not that big btw) were not depressing the clutch enough. Although it was a bent clutch adjustment rod, not quite the same as yours, I was very surprised that over time, a not perfectly aligned 3/8's rod did in fact slowly bend, not allowing full cltuch release, to where I was crunching gears on the shifts.
Case in point: one can't have strong enough clutch linkage parts with our old school mechanical stuff.....even without killer pressure plate clamping numbers.
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I don't think it'll try to flip, since the pressure is working towards the bend and not away from it. Being you used hardened steel, and as long as you didn't use heat to bend it, I think it'll work fine. Hardened steel is hard to bend. Did you use a "captured" design on the fork, or just poking through it?
And yes, Jared is pretty good at designing stuff and coming up with good ideas.
Glad to see you're making real progress on the car.
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Is that z bar a Fairlane piece? I’m assuming you removed the factory pin to install the rod.
Yessir on both.
The rod seems short, is that due to the window in that bell being higher than the stock location?
Window is a little lower than a stock bell...
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A few years ago I ran into a problem where my z-bar was hitting my headers. It is a Crite's one piece z-bar. I laid it out on cad and wound up shortening the end of the z-bar and relocate the pin. I didn't notice any increase in pedal effort. Been fine for over 10 years.
(http://www.fairlanet.com/images/zbar.jpg)
Thank you for sharing. Looks like you put a little more time in yours than I did. ;D
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Case in point: one can't have strong enough clutch linkage parts with our old school mechanical stuff.....even without killer pressure plate clamping numbers.
That's for sure... I have already gusseted the z bar as it was stress cracking from abuse over the years.
I don't think it'll try to flip, since the pressure is working towards the bend and not away from it. Being you used hardened steel, and as long as you didn't use heat to bend it, I think it'll work fine. Hardened steel is hard to bend. Did you use a "captured" design on the fork, or just poking through it?
And yes, Jared is pretty good at designing stuff and coming up with good ideas.
Glad to see you're making real progress on the car.
Thanks Doug! Your being way too kind. I don't think it'll flip either for the same reason. No, I didn't heat the rod, I just gave it a few tappy tap taps in the vice with the old swing press. I am using a locking flanged nut on the back side so the rod cannot pop out, if that's what you're asking... I am also using a return spring(not pictured) on the fork.
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where is the oil ? doesn't look like mine , I try to keep it clean , but it is a battle .
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I worried about the side load the misalignment would create so I lengthened my z-bar about 3/4". Don't know what the pedal pressure usually is with a twin disc but mine certainly requires a man size push now. Next time it's apart I might consider lengthening the z-bar on the top to counteract this.
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Curious what type clutch you are running and what would be your total travel of clutch fork? The reason I ask is because I am in a similar situation and my clutch (a twin disk McLeod) specifically calls for no more than .500 of total travel of t/o bearing against pressure plate.
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Curious what type clutch you are running and what would be your total travel of clutch fork? The reason I ask is because I am in a similar situation and my clutch (a twin disk McLeod) specifically calls for no more than .500 of total travel of t/o bearing against pressure plate.
I'm prepared to dodge the rotten tomatoes and get boo'd off stage for my choice. I went with some old skool junk laying around. A gently used Ram 3 finger and a NOS sintered disc from way back, and a Ford Racing flywheel. Not sure what the total travel is, I haven't measured that yet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1Xjhhb9s/20200321-101929.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kRKhW16p)
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The name "Cleaning Lady" is more than just some random advertising. Those were known to "clean out" everything behind the flywheel. They will absolutely expose the weak link in the driveline.
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I fully understand the history of this setup from someone who used them before me. I have tried to do my best to prevent catastrophic failure. I haven't mentioned my setup much. I have a fully prepped toploader with some tricks, a new custom driveshaft with billet steel slip yoke, chromoly ends, 1350 non-greasables, and a whole new rear setup waiting for me to assemble. I have a custom Strange housing fully braced and internally gusseted(I also boxed the perches), HD Pro Aluminum center with their spool and 35 spline axles. Caltracs, split mono's, and double adjustable Vikings.
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The 6 pad disc pictured is an early version. One of the first failures will be that the springs in the disc center will collapse and when you physically shake the disc they will rattle. Later versions had urethane encapsulated springs as that was the only way the mfg. could get any service life at all. I ran those in an 11" configuration which, by the way only had 9 springs in the pressure plate; I can only imagine how violent engagement will be with the 11.5"/12 spring setup. Those discs were produced in two different configurations. The early model only had 3 pads on the disc while, probably, to your advantage, the 6 pad is the later and slightly less violent version. The good news is that, other than spring issues, you can hardly damage the disc friction surfaces.
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Curious what type clutch you are running and what would be your total travel of clutch fork? The reason I ask is because I am in a similar situation and my clutch (a twin disk McLeod) specifically calls for no more than .500 of total travel of t/o bearing against pressure plate.
I'm prepared to dodge the rotten tomatoes and get boo'd off stage for my choice. I went with some old skool junk laying around. A gently used Ram 3 finger and a NOS sintered disc from way back, and a Ford Racing flywheel. Not sure what the total travel is, I haven't measured that yet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1Xjhhb9s/20200321-101929.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kRKhW16p)
Very nice - thanks. Are the top loader tricks something you’d share??
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The 6 pad disc pictured is an early version. One of the first failures will be that the springs in the disc center will collapse and when you physically shake the disc they will rattle. Later versions had urethane encapsulated springs as that was the only way the mfg. could get any service life at all. I ran those in an 11" configuration which, by the way only had 9 springs in the pressure plate; I can only imagine how violent engagement will be with the 11.5"/12 spring setup. Those discs were produced in two different configurations. The early model only had 3 pads on the disc while, probably, to your advantage, the 6 pad is the later and slightly less violent version. The good news is that, other than spring issues, you can hardly damage the disc friction surfaces.
At least it's a sprung hub. My guess is that the engagement will either be on/off without much chance of slipping. Great for a race application.
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Yeah, great for a racer yet a they were a real transmission/driveline breakers for sure.
We used to run a diaphram 3,200# clutch (Schiefer) in our 3,400 lb. BBC '69 Camaro (sorry!) in the early 70's and with 10.90 et's, it killed many ST-10 B-W trannys for sure! Sadly, adjustable clutches (called slippers) for bodied cars were just coming on-line in the mid-70's at affordable prices when we quit and sold the car. A fellow racer later said that with proper adjustments in a similar car, he ran it all season long with zero driveline breakage. Moral: some take-off slippage is very handy in many situations.
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Am i looking at the disc rite i dont think i ever seen a fine spline top loader input shaft.
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My .02. I don't like the bend design. With any kind of pedal pressure it will continue to work on that kink and it will give up at some time. When? Don't know, but I would eliminate that chance.
I would rather just have a straight line rod pushing at a slight angle like all my hot rods are set up.
Yup, that is gunno be an on/off kind of clutch. With the minimal surface(6 puck) it takes MORE pressure to hold the surface from slipping. That is why a 3 puck is real brutal.
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What burns my butt is that Quicktime won't change the design. Nobody can tell me that they haven't received enough feedback to know that the fork placement is a problem, as everybody has the same issue. Just goes to show they don't give a damn about making a part correctly, just selling their product, and let the end user deal with the issue. >:(
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That's the aftermarket world. Close is good enough, make the end user make it fit/work. There is not such thing as a "bolt on"!
Doesn't QT offer two hole placements? Normal and lower? Or is that only on certain models.
I'll never give up one of my vintage Lakewoods!
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That's the aftermarket world. Close is good enough, make the end user make it fit/work. There is not such thing as a "bolt on"!
Doesn't QT offer two hole placements? Normal and lower? Or is that only on certain models.
I'll never give up one of my vintage Lakewoods!
Yes as old Lakewoods are quite valuable too.
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Are the top loader tricks something you’d share??
It's essentially a poor boy's Jerico.
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Am i looking at the disc rite i dont think i ever seen a fine spline top loader input shaft.
You are correct. It has an 18 spline input...
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Perhaps lowering the fork hole is to be able to SFI certify it? I want one to replace my old Lakewood, i'd just move the block pivot lower and lower the frame pivot the little bit it can go and run the Z bar tipped down at an angle.
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Just a thought---
When I acquired my '63 F-100, it had already had a 390 swapped in. The truck originally had a '6' and automatic. EVERYTHING had been sorta cobbled together and nothing quite fit and many of the parts were worn out. One of the things I didn't cotton on to right away was that the bushing (brass two piece) in the block end of the Z-tube was badly worn. I found that I could source one that was supposed to go in a '57 T-bird and replaced it with a goodly amount of grease. It only lasted a couple of months. In order to fix it, I ultimately replaced the ball-headed stud on the block bracket with a bolt through a Teflon 'doughnut' from a later model car.
I never was completely satisfied with the clutch action even though I'd re-manufactured just about every piece of the linkage. But with Heim joint ends and hardened bushings in the 'wallered-out' holes, it was much better than when I started. Good luck to you!
KS
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Jared, I see your signature now includes 4.71 cogs. Looks like it is gonna be rip city. 4.57s weren’t gonna get you revving high enough? Used to be 4.33s IIRC. Gonna be fun.
JB
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Jared, I see your signature now includes 4.71 cogs. Looks like it is gonna be rip city. 4.57s weren’t gonna get you revving high enough? Used to be 4.33s IIRC. Gonna be fun.
JB
Good memory, JB. Yes, was 4.33's when I had the clapped out old motor in there...The new one is going to be a little more high strung. I was running some numbers and it came down to a 4.71 or a 4.86. This will be street/strip. I decided for now to try out the 4.71. If I happen to get greedy and slap a 50 shot at it, I should still be fine. I don't mind a little extra noise on the highway, there's a reason I have a radio delete. :)
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I like your fairlane sure makes me miss my the one i had.