FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: FElony on May 09, 2020, 11:50:19 AM
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Skip to 11:19 to avoid toxic green death. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mDZln0-sVQ
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Copy cats.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49033898757_b8589ae7fe_c.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49066174873_d032060040_c.jpg)
I'll tell you though, if you've never done something like this before, it's the most fun I've ever had on a dyno. I still think about it and smile.
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Well, you know I often moan about the lack of true grassroots action in this forum. There is always a subtle push towards the latest and greatest trick parts. That's fine for some folks; for others, it's more fun to see what you can do with original junk.
I was hoping in both your attempts at doing a 352, that it was going to be truly grassroots. But in both cases you got wacky with trickiness and I lost interest. After some 100-proof deep thought, it dawned on me that the engine builders here have no game beyond the dyno. Naturally, in creeps this desire to wring every hp out of every engine. The REAL end game, IMO, has to be the car itself. I don't see those from the pros, because if it doesn't make money, then it's a waste of time.
Personally, and I know 98% of the members here will disagree, I'd like to see a 352 or 360 built using off the shelf non-exotic parts, carefully assembled, no dyno, installed in a CAR, tuned there, and whipped to a frenzy on the street. You know, truly grassroots. Time it with a GTech or phone app or stopwatch. Whatever.
I know, ain't gonna happen here. IF a member has a build like this in that subforum, I missed it so a linky would be nice.
I'll cut it short here. I kinda don't think the FE that Powernation has is out of a dump truck. Not FT heads, at any rate. I'd like to see what they do with it, but it will probably wind up as a dyno queen.
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Well, you know I often moan about the lack of true grassroots action in this forum. There is always a subtle push towards the latest and greatest trick parts. That's fine for some folks; for others, it's more fun to see what you can do with original junk.
I was hoping in both your attempts at doing a 352, that it was going to be truly grassroots. But in both cases you got wacky with trickiness and I lost interest. After some 100-proof deep thought, it dawned on me that the engine builders here have no game beyond the dyno. Naturally, in creeps this desire to wring every hp out of every engine. The REAL end game, IMO, has to be the car itself. I don't see those from the pros, because if it doesn't make money, then it's a waste of time.
Personally, and I know 98% of the members here will disagree, I'd like to see a 352 or 360 built using off the shelf non-exotic parts, carefully assembled, no dyno, installed in a CAR, tuned there, and whipped to a frenzy on the street. You know, truly grassroots. Time it with a GTech or phone app or stopwatch. Whatever.
I know, ain't gonna happen here. IF a member has a build like this in that subforum, I missed it so a linky would be nice.
I'll cut it short here. I kinda don't think the FE that Powernation has is out of a dump truck. Not FT heads, at any rate. I'd like to see what they do with it, but it will probably wind up as a dyno queen.
I think that's a broad stroke with the wrong brush. Every engine gets dyno'd, but every engine does end up in a car. During the spring/summer/fall, most weekends I'm on the couch with the phone answering the phone and texting, trying to help guys who are at the strip or the fairgrounds get the most out of their combination. We have to race dynos for a little bit to get the rough tune there, but ultimately they end in vehicles.
You also have to remember that just because FElony wants a "grassroots" 352 or 390, I have to put together whatever the customer orders. If you're gonna gripe that no one is "grassroots", then have someone call me up with a junk 390 order and we'll see what we can do.
Otherwise, don't lose hope on the 352 yet. I have changed my mind 16 times at least so far and the current iteration is the block and heads that you see up above, with a 352 crank, some other modern internals, and a PI intake. It will do fine. Need some more time though. After all the engine builds I have going on, I still have to work on your bicycle that's in the picture above.
Why don't you put together a 352 or 360, built using off the shelf non-exotic parts, carefully assembled, no dyno, installed in a CAR, tuned there, and whipped to a frenzy on the street?
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"Why don't you put together a 352 or 360, built using off the shelf non-exotic parts, carefully assembled, no dyno, installed in a CAR, tuned there, and whipped to a frenzy on the street?"
I have all the parts and the car. It will be the first project in my YT channel. I'll let you know when it hits.
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Exactly, instead of whining about it, build one yourself. I just sent a set of C1AEs out to be rebuilt, I ported them and will install them on a 352 shortblock with dome pistons and Lemans rods from a car my father crewed on in the mid 60s. It’ll be cobbled together from junk on the shelf, I don’t mention it much here because everyone will say turn it into a stroker but I want to do it “as is” in a tribute to my father and his old buddies.
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I personally like trying to do more with less. It's easy to crank out horsepower with a stroker kit and TFS heads, but it takes some extra figurin' to crank out horsepower with underdog parts.
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I personally like trying to do more with less. It's easy to crank out horsepower with a stroker kit and TFS heads, but it takes some extra figurin' to crank out horsepower with underdog parts.
Isn't that what I just said?
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I personally like trying to do more with less. It's easy to crank out horsepower with a stroker kit and TFS heads, but it takes some extra figurin' to crank out horsepower with underdog parts.
Isn't that what I just said?
Yes, but you can't call FE builders out for not doing it. We don't make the orders, customers do. I've never said I don't like messing around with factory stuff, but when somebody calls in to order a 445, I can't just say, "Hey, I know that you'd like to have that, but can I interest you in a rusty 360?"
What I'm trying to say is, don't get wadded up at the builders because we have to build engines and dyno them. If you wanna see grassroots, then dig some of that rusty money up out of the yard and go play with grassroots.
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Hello FElony,
Many of the 40+ crowd here did the grassroots type FE hotrodding.
Where I grew up there was no dyno facility.
I couldn't afford the extra dyno costs even if there was one. (part time $3.65/hr wage didn't help)
Many FE fans started with 2 bbl 390's (early 80's for me).
Changed to a factory 4 barrel intake.
Next changed rear gear ratio - depended on what junk yard had - I found/used a 3.56 9" traction lock.
Then added headers and 2 1/2" dual exhaust. (big bang for the $)
Took engine out for higher compression pistons (0.030" flat with 4 reliefs TRW forged)
Had boss 351 rod bolts fitted to 390 rods. (needed honing rod bolt opening for slightly larger diameter boss 351 bolt)
Changed camshaft to factory 428 CJ cam. (Changed valve springs also I using boss 351 spring)
Changed to aluminum 4 bbl intake and hand ported heads (used 428 CJ valves)
The "dyno" was stop light racing and highway flashlight 1/4 mile racing.
Took probably 4 years to slowly make modifications. It was all fun. All changes were done by me, brother and friends - few cases of beer too.
We all "hotroded" our cars (two 68 galaxies, a 66 and 67 mustang, and a 57 chevy)
All did plenty of stop light street racing (no drag strip remotely close). Also a few miles out of the city there was flashlight drag racing on a narrow road as well.
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https://youtu.be/iFFGDqQpx2E
https://youtu.be/fPzAotIjSw8
https://youtu.be/DzKo8nKDoCk
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Also, part of the problem nowadays is a “grassroots” 352 may get its doors blown off by a Honda Pilot, so guys have to up the ante a bit
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Felony there is a build tread on my grassroot 390 full on non exotic of the floor parts. I even made my own piston mounting cone
and cambearing tool Hooned it with a big hydraulic cylinder hoone .Traded a Volvo Amzone for the head and intake porting job
put it in the car and traveled the country from end to end Grassrooty enough? ;)
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[Why don't you put together a 352 or 360, built using off the shelf non-exotic parts, carefully assembled, no dyno, installed in a CAR, tuned there, and whipped to a frenzy on the street?
You, sir, are a terminal dreamer.
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You, sir, are a terminal dreamer.
Lol! Didn’t we have this thread last year? And the year before that? And I think he started one a year before that.
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We did something pretty grassroots/old school last year. Old iron OE 390 block, C4-G heads(1964 old enough?), Stock stroke, .057 overbore, 10.5 compression. Made 600 hp with a little 390. The intake was new, but the carb was a 50 year old refurbished Holley. It is going in a 1969 17' Rayson Craft boat. It did see 39 dyno pulls though....Does that count?
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Personally, the fact that we all are messing with this old dinosaur of a motor, either trying to bring it into the now or just making the darn thing run period gets us ALL in the door of the cool kids club.
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https://youtu.be/iFFGDqQpx2E
https://youtu.be/fPzAotIjSw8
https://youtu.be/DzKo8nKDoCk
OK, I know Brent has no Ford of his own to install anything into. But you do, Barry.
You, sir, are a terminal dreamer.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. What is wrong to see if the guys in this Forum who profit from the exposure here can jump the fence and do a simple street build with a neglected FE? That's dreaming?
Also, part of the problem nowadays is a “grassroots” 352 may get its doors blown off by a Honda Pilot, so guys have to up the ante a bit
What the hell? Do you get into races every time you leave the house? Is there no joy in just driving your car? I hate to point this out, but even the best FE's are going to get eaten alive these days. There's always a bigger fish in the pond. And what are you doing here with that "460" name? Don't you know that the 460 resulted from an FE having inappropriate relations with a big block Chevy, creating a genetic defect that consistently ruins the nice straight line of rockers? Sad. [sniff]You, sir, are a terminal dreamer.
Lol! Didn’t we have this thread last year? And the year before that? And I think he started one a year before that.
So, you think it's silly to offer up an idea more than once? Give it a shot and give up? Us that what you did with you Mustang? How narrow-minded.
What you guys should notice is that I usually show up when it gets boring in here.
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We did something pretty grassroots/old school last year. Old iron OE 390 block, C4-G heads(1964 old enough?), Stock stroke, .057 overbore, 10.5 compression. Made 600 hp with a little 390. The intake was new, but the carb was a 50 year old refurbished Holley. It is going in a 1969 17' Rayson Craft boat. It did see 39 dyno pulls though....Does that count?
A street strip boat? 39 dyno pulls? Unported heads? Low lift cam? [cough]. Nope, Blair.
I know I'm a bad guy for "dreaming" ::). I will castigate myself in repentance.
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Jump the fence and do a simple street build? For crying out loud, Rick.
I've got a handful of 428's in the dyno section of this forum that are simple street builds. Factory CJ heads, untouched, CJ intake or PI intake, hydraulic flat tappet, etc. It's all there for everyone to see. So I didn't take it out and throw it in a car for everyone to whoop and holler over. What's the difference?
Of all the members here and engines being built, do you think they're all just being dyno'd at pushed into a corner?
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So much for defusing. ;D
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.570 lift.........made the ports right here on my own table. I thought hot rodding was about taking the parts and adding your own spice....??? And it didn't get eaten by the way........
What about a 570 hp 390 with a .481/.490 lift flat tappet cam, PI manifold, and C6-R heads? 10.30s in a Mustang with a 9" tire. Does that qualify as grassroots?
I'm not sure I understand your point. If you want someone to build a bone stock 352 with no mods, what would be the point? Just to see what a stock 352 would do in a '64 Country Squire? Elaborate please.
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So, you think it's silly to offer up an idea more than once? Give it a shot and give up? Us that what you did with you Mustang? How narrow-minded.
Not sure I understand what you are saying there, the wording is off. I’ve never owned a Mustang.
Most of us have or have had well built stock style engines. Heck I still daily drive one.
It is the epitome of grassroots.
Bought used, tossed the 302 out, installed it, drove for awhile. Took it apart, blue printed, headers, intake, etc. built a roller c6, drove it some more. Been my daily since 2007. Have tinkered on and off with it since.
I’ve never used or seen a dyno in person, my only work/tuning is in the car based on the performance I desire.
The last time you brought this up, I believe it ended in “So go ahead and do it.”
I don’t think bringing up an idea is silly....
I think bringing up an idea and never doing a damn thing else is silly.
So uhhh, Go ahead, do it, only one person can stop you.
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Jump the fence and do a simple street build? For crying out loud, Rick.
I've got a handful of 428's in the dyno section of this forum that are simple street builds. Factory CJ heads, untouched, CJ intake or PI intake, hydraulic flat tappet, etc. It's all there for everyone to see. So I didn't take it out and throw it in a car for everyone to whoop and holler over. What's the difference?
Of all the members here and engines being built, do you think they're all just being dyno'd at pushed into a corner?
Personally, the fact that we all are messing with this old dinosaur of a motor, either trying to bring it into the now or just making the darn thing run period gets us ALL in the door of the cool kids club.
This is true, but still not hitting the mark. In the old days we took a 1-horse-per-cube whatever and jammed it into a 4-something-geared car with no phaggy overdrive and pounded it all over town 'cuz we knew it wouldn't be worth much and didn't care.
I guess I'm the only one. Ambience.
Jump the fence and do a simple street build? For crying out loud, Rick.
I've got a handful of 428's in the dyno section of this forum that are simple street builds. Factory CJ heads, untouched, CJ intake or PI intake, hydraulic flat tappet, etc. It's all there for everyone to see. So I didn't take it out and throw it in a car for everyone to whoop and holler over. What's the difference?
Of all the members here and engines being built, do you think they're all just being dyno'd at pushed into a corner?
Just a silly idea that you might like to DRIVE one of your own modest builds and learn/teach how to tune it on the fly. Get the most out of the least. Wait, didn't you say that? I mean, who here doesn't like in-car video? You act like whoopin' and hollerin' is a bad thing.
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I have an engine just like you describe in my old beater 1-ton flat bed. Everyone who drives it loves it, but it ain't super impressive. It would drive to SoCal from here though.....and never miss a beat. It would probably be fun in a car, with a 4-speed, but would soon become regular, and a guy would want to work on it some more. I guess everyone has their idea of what they are interested in.....no foul.....
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So, you think it's silly to offer up an idea more than once? Give it a shot and give up? Us that what you did with you Mustang? How narrow-minded.
Not sure I understand what you are saying there, the wording is off. I’ve never owned a Mustang.
Most of us have or have had well built stock style engines. Heck I still daily drive one.
It is the epitome of grassroots.
Bought used, tossed the 302 out, installed it, drove for awhile. Took it apart, blue printed, headers, intake, etc. built a roller c6, drove it some more. Been my daily since 2007. Have tinkered on and off with it since.
I’ve never used or seen a dyno in person, my only work/tuning is in the car based on the performance I desire.
The last time you brought this up, I believe it ended in “So go ahead and do it.”
I don’t think bringing up an idea is silly....
I think bringing up an idea and never doing a damn thing else is silly.
So uhhh, Go ahead, do it, only one person can stop you.
Sorry, I'm trying to keep up and that Mustang comment should have been aimed at cjshaker. The point is for "builders" to put a dog in the fight, not myself or any of the "standard" membership here. I gain nothing doing it; the builders will. Or may, I should say.
If I can overcome the lack of video tech knowledge, I will certainly give a channel the old college try. The segment would be titled, more or less, "What if Ford had built a Falcon GT in the U.S." and would revolve around the change to the engine compartment in '66 but no big block, and why let the Nova and Dart rule the compact wheelbase roost. What would have happened if Ford built a '66 Falcon GT (or Sprint) with a 352 4-V using parts they already had?
If I had a problem with dislikes I wouldn't have picked this name. I had 28,000 posts in a hellish part of the Internet before I ventured webside. I had fun there.
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You, sir, are a terminal dreamer.
Lol! Didn’t we have this thread last year? And the year before that? And I think he started one a year before that.
Yes, he posts the same crap year after year, and always wants somebody else to do it, despite claiming to have lots of cars and tons of FE parts and engines sitting around....that nobody has ever seen. What I don't get is why people get suckered into the same conversation. And the fact that a half dozen engine builds, that fit his exact criteria, and posted here, will make no difference, and the blaming of forum members for his own lack of will will continue.
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Sorry, I'm trying to keep up and that Mustang comment should have been aimed at cjshaker.
At least you didn't wish my car would burn to the ground this time.
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You, sir, are a terminal dreamer.
Lol! Didn’t we have this thread last year? And the year before that? And I think he started one a year before that.
Yes, he posts the same crap year after year, and always wants somebody else to do it, despite claiming to have lots of cars and tons of FE parts and engines sitting around....that nobody has ever seen. What I don't get is why people get suckered into the same conversation. And the fact that a half dozen engine builds, that fit his exact criteria, and posted here, will make no difference, and the blaming of forum members for his own lack of will will continue.
That's a pretty funny post. But I understand. Nobody knows what has been going on over here for years. As for exact criteria, please sharpen your comprehension. The build is Part 1, the followup into a car owned by the builder is Part 2. The tuning of said combo is Part 3. I really don't know how many ways I can say that. Relax. Maybe you'll see. Less hate more think.
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I went back and checked on the video comments. Awful lot of people loving that beat 390. Much more than the blown Chevy. Just sayin'.
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At least you didn't wish my car would burn to the ground this time.
Oh yeah, I remember that.
Anyway, I do test every carb that I build. So that kinda fits the criteria.
I can’t imagine an engine builder doing that. Testing 12 carbs in a day is totally possible when the part swapped is 15lbs.
I’m reminded of a lesson one of my mentors shared with me. He built 4 identical carbs the same day. 3 were perfect and one was off. I assume this is why dynos are popular with the engine builders. 50 year old parts often have 50 year old problems.
I think r&d is a critical component to any builder of any part.
It’s totally not feasible to build every combo and try it out. I (and I’m sure everyone else) relies on customer feedback, and good note taking to gain experience.
That is how I can build a set of carbs that bolt on, and the car runs a 9 second 1/4 mile with zero changes, while not having a car that is anywhere near that in power.
I’m sure we all wish we had more time to build fun stuff for no reason. Sadly part of running a successful business is you tend to be fairly busy.
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.570 lift.........made the ports right here on my own table. I thought hot rodding was about taking the parts and adding your own spice....??? And it didn't get eaten by the way........
What about a 570 hp 390 with a .481/.490 lift flat tappet cam, PI manifold, and C6-R heads? 10.30s in a Mustang with a 9" tire. Does that qualify as grassroots?
I'm not sure I understand your point. If you want someone to build a bone stock 352 with no mods, what would be the point? Just to see what a stock 352 would do in a '64 Country Squire? Elaborate please.
OK, never mind. Over and over I write my ideas, but people just don't want to read. Wrong forum, I guess.
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Sorry, I'm trying to keep up and that Mustang comment should have been aimed at cjshaker.
At least you didn't wish my car would burn to the ground this time.
Trying to recall the context. Link?
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I've always ran cobbled together junk and it seems to work good right until it goes KABOOM. If I had the wherewithal, I'd happily drive a stock 352 or 390 mid 60's car or 70's truck. I had a 360 once which was about enough though. Machine work is the same no matter the parts so unless someone has good used on the shelf then new and improved just seems to make the most sense. Not that being sensical is a prerequisite here.....
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The first several FE's I ever had were just 390's or 428's pulled out of old Galaxies or TBirds. Not rebuilt at all, just throw the big hydraulic cam in 'em, deep oil pan and the Cobra Jet heads and whatever intake I had at the time. Dual quad MR, Streetmaster, PI or F427. I would wing them 6500 or more with stock pistons and rings, stock rods and bolts, stock pushrods and stands and rocker assemblies.
In fact the ramp trucks engine is exactly that, a 428 with it's original rod bolts and C6AE pistons. It's been over 6500 many times.
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Sorry, I'm trying to keep up and that Mustang comment should have been aimed at cjshaker.
At least you didn't wish my car would burn to the ground this time.
Trying to recall the context. Link?
Couldn't find the original comment, but I found my apology and your acceptance of my apology, Doug. Why bring it up? Still holding a grudge since Dec of 2018? Wow. I'm lucky if any of mine last more than a couple days, if that long.
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Guys love underdogs.
If you want to see evidence of that, look at the dyno section of the forum. My junky 352 dyno session has over 1800 views, while some of the other builds I've done, 445, 482, etc., with Trick Flow heads, aftermarket parts, etc., are looking at 600-700-800 views.
I don't know if I would be so adamant about putting it in a vehicle though, or giving builders a hard time because they build but don't install. I can see exactly what a change will do on the dyno a whole lot quicker than I can see what it would do in a car. I agree that driving is fun (that's why I'm working toward my own project) but there's lots of data to be had with a dyno session.
If you hadn't watched, my 2bbl 352 started the dyno session with about 190 hp. A PCV removal and timing change to 42° added 18 hp. Adding a 500cfm Holley 2-bbl added 26 hp more and a swap to a BT intake and a Holley 650DP added 30 hp on top of that. At the end of the session we were at 264 hp, which is more horsepower than my 2002 Mustang GT had, brand new from the factory.
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Sorry, I'm trying to keep up and that Mustang comment should have been aimed at cjshaker.
At least you didn't wish my car would burn to the ground this time.
Trying to recall the context. Link?
Couldn't find the original comment, but I found my apology and your acceptance of my apology, Doug. Why bring it up? Still holding a grudge since Dec of 2018? Wow. I'm lucky if any of mine last more than a couple days, if that long.
The context was, somebody was having starter problems and a couple of us forum members suggested trying the RobbMc starter. I was having hot start issues during Drag Week (you know, actually doing something with an FE), so I used the RobbMc starter and the issue went away. You insisted that it must be my starter cable, and that resistance was the issue, despite the fact that the issue was gone when I used a different starter. When I pointed that out, you still insisted it must be my cable. Then you went on some tirade about how you were some automotive electrical guru (30 years of wiring experience, blah blah blah) and that I didn't know what I was talking about. Then you wished my car would burn to the ground.
Ring a bell now?
Your "apology" was on a different thread, on the off chance that I might see it. Not on the same thread, as most people would do if they were truly sorry. And do I still hold a grudge over it? You're damn straight I do. Will I ever forget it? Hell no I won't. Anybody who would wish for someones classic car to burn to the ground, is lower than dirt in my opinion.
My apologies to the forum for the rant, but a reminder that that's the type of person you're dealing with here.
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Oh yes, I was trying to help you troubleshoot your starting problem by narrowing down the possibilities. But you rejected my suggestion, adamant that it wouldn't help. You rejected other peoples' ideas, too. Why ask for help if you're going to have that attitude?
Yes, I had a career working on cars that involved electrical and current flow. You? No. You dismissed me out of hand because you hold a perpetual grudge. You insulted me and my background until I said what I said. Doesn't matter "where" I posted the apology, as you read everything that's posted here night and day. Your boss must be looking the other way.
Since you felt it necessary to bring this up again, I say fine. Let the others see what you're really like. A year and a half later and you're still hot over it. Who wins? Nobody, really.
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FElony, why is it that so many of your topics degenerate into these little pissing contests? So now I have to lock this post to enforce a civil discourse here. Sheesh... >:(