FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: CV355 on May 05, 2020, 02:16:58 PM
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When we purchased our '69 Mach 1, it had an improperly-mounted Holley Red fuel pump running directly from a 12vdc toggle switch. Sure, that works, but it isn't safe nor ideal. During the rewiring process, we are setting it up on its own relay. I didn't like the fuel line routing, so I plan on redoing that. I then noticed that the fuel regulator is non-return with no bypass, and there is no controller for the electric fuel pump - is that normal? Pump straight to non-bypass regulator to carb? I'll admit, carb cars are not my forte but I am learning. I've done EFI in both return and returnless, but never a custom carb fuel system solution.
1) I'm looking at the Holley 12-800 Billet In-Line pump to retire the angry red pump - any other suggestions?
2) I'll need a new fuel regulator- figuring non-return style, so where in the system would a pressure relief/bypass be necessary?
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It all depends on how safe you want to be. Yours sounds like they did it like most do: quick and dirty.
In reality, you would need a pressure switch on the oil line to activate the pump. That way, if you stall the engine, or whatever, it shuts the fuel pump off. This of course gives you no primer function(you need a separate button for that to activate the relay).
Most regulators you get with those red/blue Holley pumps are NOT return style. Just dead heads against it. They work, as they have been around forever. The pumps do have a bypass valve built into the body. I ran a blue pump for years, until I got tired of fixing it all the time and went with a Mallory 140 with bypass and haven't touched it in decades.
The pump you are looking at states:
These pumps do not have an internal bypass. A bypass style regulator and return line are required.
So you'll need to install a new bypass regulator and a return line to the tank.
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You don’t need a pressure relief.
Carter (and others) sell a 12v switch that works off oil pressure to kill the pump. Engine dies, fuel pump shuts off.
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This is what you want to control your relay https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-a68301 (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-a68301) Has a circuit for starting to prime the system.
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Deadhead regulators work fine in most cases if the pump doesn't exceed max pressure by a wide margin, but if you had a return, especially close to the carburetor, the fuel would stay cooler, pump could last longer, etc.
That Holley pump is powerful enough to blow the float to the bottom of the float bowls. Check with Holley, but I would guess that design doesn't like to be deadheaded at that much pressure difference (max 80-ish, held back to 7-ish) If running that, I would do a good regulator with a return equal in diameter to the feed.
Any relay should be fine that will carry the max amperage load of the pump.
EDITED for silly and frequent spelling errors
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That is the one I use BigBlueIron. Many years no problems.
I use a Carter 4600HP pump and QF billet regulator.
I can’t over emphasize how much better carbs work with a steady 5psi.
I have never run a return line and never needed to. I should try it one day as an experiment.
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That is the one I use BigBlueIron. Many years no problems.
I use a Carter 4600HP pump and QF billet regulator.
I can’t over emphasize how much better carbs work with a steady 5psi.
I have never run a return line and never needed to. I should try it one day as an experiment.
That Carter is a very nice pump, but it's not an 80 psi EFI pump. If deadhead, I'd use the one you use too
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How much quieter is that Carter pump than the Holley Red pump? I have the Holley pump in my car and I'd like to find something quieter.
Thanks,
Dan
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Considerably quieter
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I guess the Holley electric fuel pumps, and running them deadheaded, can be all bad, I have been running the same Holley "Blue" fuel pumps and regulators for over 30 years now, in my Fairmont. No return line, no relay, ..no problem. All I have ever had to do, was replace a bottom cover gasket, that would leak for a short time after sitting in the garage all winter, about 15 years ago. That said, they are pretty noisy, and I decided years ago that a good Carter mechanical pump was good enough for the vast majority of my street cars, basically like a factory 428 CJ pump. No noise, no wiring or figuring out where to mount an elecrtic.
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Not wanting anymore 'stuff' in the engine bay than necessary I use a tachometric relay from early EFI systems to control the pump. No tach signal, no pump. Has a start circuit bypass.
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Not wanting anymore 'stuff' in the engine bay than necessary I use a tachometric relay from early EFI systems to control the pump. No tach signal, no pump. Has a start circuit bypass.
Never heard of a tachometric relay, that looks pretty slick after looking into it. Not sure if or what I would use that on but good to be aware of it.. Thanks
Thinking about it some more that could be a great solution for FE's since oil ports or should I say port in most cases are at a minimum.
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The Red is 97 GPH, the blues are 110 GPH. IMHO anything un-self regulated above 60 GPH should have a return regulator and line. Regulator mounts AFTER the carbs, not before the carb feed(s). If you're going to stick with using that jack hammer on the car.
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Not wanting anymore 'stuff' in the engine bay than necessary I use a tachometric relay from early EFI systems to control the pump. No tach signal, no pump. Has a start circuit bypass.
Hey Andy, do you have a part number for that relay? I’ve used a similar type relay out of an early 80’s VW before, but I’ve lost the part number. It worked well, would allow the pump to prime for a few seconds when the ignition was first switched on, then would not run unless it had a tach signal.
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Hi Todd
I get them from wreckers as they can be reeeeeaaal pricey new. XE Falcon with the Bosch J-Jetronic have them. On the drivers side shock tower from memory. The K-Jetronic (used in XF's) doesn't have them. The CPU controls it. Even with the Holley Sniper EFI I use one on the lift pump.
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The Red is 97 GPH, the blues are 110 GPH. IMHO anything un-self regulated above 60 GPH should have a return regulator and line. Regulator mounts AFTER the carbs, not before the carb feed(s). If you're going to stick with using that jack hammer on the car.
How does one mount a fuel pump regulator AFTER the carbs? Seems to me that once the fuel finds its way into the carbs, pretty hard to do anything with it. As for "stick with using that jackhammer on the car", when I first installed the Holley pumps over 30 years ago, I installed it by following the instruction sheets that came with the pumps. Should I be expecting issues from doing so anytime soon, IYHO?
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The Red is 97 GPH, the blues are 110 GPH. IMHO anything un-self regulated above 60 GPH should have a return regulator and line. Regulator mounts AFTER the carbs, not before the carb feed(s). If you're going to stick with using that jack hammer on the car.
How does one mount a fuel pump regulator AFTER the carbs? Seems to me that once the fuel finds its way into the carbs, pretty hard to do anything with it. As for "stick with using that jackhammer on the car", when I first installed the Holley pumps over 30 years ago, I installed it by following the instruction sheets that came with the pumps. Should I be expecting issues from doing so anytime soon, IYHO?
When I was doing some research about designing my fuel system, I noticed some companies recommend running them that way. The bypass is used to regulate the fuel pressure on the feed side. It was contrary to what I had always seen and assumed, but I understood the concept. I suppose it might depend on the regulator design and how they recommend doing it. Just my observation while reading...
Edit to add that, I don't think it would be possible to run the regulator after the carbs without a bypass style regulator.
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For a return system, you MUST use a return style regulator. The standard Holley thing is for dead head use only. Plenty of studied have identified dead head style regulation as "sketchy" since the very nature of the regulator switching more/less/more/less surges fuel at the carbs and can add to fuel foaming in the bowls. For a normal street type car, yea - esoteric type issues.
With a return system, the regulator sits after the fuel log or carb feed(s) and returns unused fuel to the tank. Line pressure at the carb is set by the amount of return fuel. With my AFT 250, the line up is a -8AN but the return is -10AN to allow for regulation of that volume of fuel. In theory, the carb(s) have access to the full volume capacity of the pump, so if pressure reading are dropping it means that the carb(s) and the engine demand are starting to outrun the pump and you need a bigger pump. I run all the hot rods/race cars with a return system.
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Really nice system to purge vapor pressure above. If I had that problem, it is definitely a path I would take.
And Rory’s remark about “should I be seeing an issue after 30 years?”
Serious question I would ask is “Do you honestly think the parts made now, and the parts made 30+ years ago are the same quality?”
I hate to suggest any part that worked for me even five years ago. The cheapening of high quality products is a plaque on our industry.
When I found the electric pump I used worked very well, I bought several of them for just that reason.
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And Rory’s remark about “should I be seeing an issue after 30 years?”
Serious question I would ask is “Do you honestly think the parts made now, and the parts made 30+ years ago are the same quality?”
I hate to suggest any part that worked for me even five years ago. The cheapening of high quality products is a plaque on our industry.
When I found the electric pump I used worked very well, I bought several of them for just that reason.
Very true statement!! And I'll do the same thing. If I find something that works really well, I'll usually buy a spare right away, because I know they won't be available in probably a years time, or the quality will go down after the next company buy-out ::) You can apply that to just about every company out there.