FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: gregaba on May 04, 2020, 02:03:09 PM
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I think I have finally decided on a trans for the 63-428.
While on another forum there was a mention of a 6r80 from a 3.5 Ecoboost behind a FE engine.
I called around looking for one but there weren't any for the 3.5 in my area 120 mile radius but it seemed everybody had some for the Modular V-8 engine..
I started looking on the net and found Bendtsen Adapters part # FO1000201 adapter kit for the FE for $950.00.
It is for the trans from any ford modular 5.0 etc.
Looking for a controller the only one I could find was the US Shift self learning controller for $1249.
I would still have to build a cross member and have a new driveshaft made but this seems like a reasonable amount of money to spend with the trans going for about $600.00 in my area.
I really liked this trans as I had it in my 08 Mustang GT and my 2012 Mustang GT and really punished them with no problems.
Any comments on this decision? Good or Bad.
Greg
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Do you know, dimensionally, how the 6r80 compares to a c6? Do you know how much power the 6r80 can safely handle while maintaining a reasonable life span?
I think I have finally decided on a trans for the 63-428.
While on another forum there was a mention of a 6r80 from a 3.5 Ecoboost behind a FE engine.
I called around looking for one but there weren't any for the 3.5 in my area 120 mile radius but it seemed everybody had some for the Modular V-8 engine..
I started looking on the net and found Bendtsen Adapters part # FO1000201 adapter kit for the FE for $950.00.
It is for the trans from any ford modular 5.0 etc.
Looking for a controller the only one I could find was the US Shift self learning controller for $1249.
I would still have to build a cross member and have a new driveshaft made but this seems like a reasonable amount of money to spend with the trans going for about $600.00 in my area.
I really liked this trans as I had it in my 08 Mustang GT and my 2012 Mustang GT and really punished them with no problems.
Any comments on this decision? Good or Bad.
Greg
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6R80 holds more torque than a C6
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If the naming convention holds true the 6r80 is rated for 800nm, 590ft/lb. interesting read:
https://www.mercurycougar.net/threads/73-cougar-6r80-swap.120779/
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I don't know what the dimensions are but that is one of the things I need to find out. The video Brendtsen posted on U-tube said it was smaller then the 4r70 and the AOD.
As far as to how much horsepower they will hold I was pulling over 500 in my 12 GT and I really abused it at the strip with no problems. That being said I traded the 12 GT for a 13 Boss 302 and only put 31,000 on the 12.
I do know a few guys in the nearest big town near me who are running these with blowers and 2 guys who have the Hellion twin turbo setup's running the stock tran's.
Now how long they will hold up under that kind of power I have no ideal.
As soon as I can find out the different dimensions from the c-6 I will post.
Greg
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Found the size of the C-6 but not the 6r80. I did see some pictures of it and the middle from behind the bell looks fat back about 12 inches. Quit a bit bigger then the c-4 it was beside in the picture.
I did see where HOT Rod did an story on installing a 6r80 in a fox body and the mechanic had to massage the floor in 2 or 3 places with a plastic mallet.
Greg
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I've got one here I can measure for you if you'd like. I plan to put one in my race car at some point. I don't like the adapter kits that are available for it though, they require cutting off the leg of the FE block that is underneath the starter, and then using a small block flywheel and starter. Seems like a dumb way to go, although it's probably the easiest way. I don't want to cut my FE blocks, I'd rather modify the case of the 6R80. I have a plan to do that going forward. I already have an adapter designed that will bolt to the 6R80, and allow it to bolt to the FE block. Next is a billet aluminum piece that will replace a small amount of the 6R80 case, and hold the nose of the FE starter. The case will have to be cut or ground away, and the billet piece welded on, but that doesn't seem like a big deal to me. The advantage of not cutting the FE block, and using the FE flywheel and a starter capable of turning over a big cube, high compression FE, trumps the problems with welding the case, to me anyway.
However, because of the fixed flange at the rear of the trans, a driveshaft with a slip yoke built in is also required. Again, not a big deal, to me anyway. If the project works out well, I'll probably offer the adapter parts as a kit.
Those transmissions can be built to handle 1400 HP and are used in some of those supercharged and turboed late model Mustangs, running low 8s at 4000+ pounds. I think it's going to be a great trans for my race car. By the way, I bought mine locally for $400, from a V6 Mustang.
It is a fairly wide transmission, and I think some tunnel surgery will be in order to make it fit my 69 Shelby clone. I don't care about that since it's primarily a race car, but if you want to maintain the factory floor, it could be an issue.
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/6R80_1.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/6R80_2.jpg)
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In time I can see myself as a customer for an adapter kit.
I’m a stick guy at heart but in time I can see an advantage to losing the left pedal.
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In time I can see myself as a customer for an adapter kit.
I’m a stick guy at heart but in time I can see an advantage to losing the left pedal.
Jay - any idea how far out your kit is?
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6R80s are the preferred auto-swap for 13/14 GT500s though it is a $12k project to install one against a Trinity. I considered it on mine at one point. Against an FE, I would imagine it would cost substantially less. Excellent transmissions- I wish my '18 GT had one instead of the 10R80 Confus-o-Matic.
Regarding the controller as a stand-alone unit:
I hope I'm not breaking any rules by doing this, but here's a wealth of knowledge on 6R80 swaps as it pertains to 13/14 cars, but some of it may be useful to you:
https://www.svtperformance.com/threads/gt500-6r80-swap-how-to.1128347/
You may also want to talk with the guys at VMP:
https://www.vmpperformance.com/performance-parts/swap-parts/6r80-swap
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In time I can see myself as a customer for an adapter kit.
I’m a stick guy at heart but in time I can see an advantage to losing the left pedal.
Jay - any idea how far out your kit is?
That kind of depends on how things go with my cylinder head project over the next month or so. If that all works out as I currently expect, I'd probably be ready with a prototype adapter setup for my car by the end of the summer, and a kit by the end of this year. If the head project takes longer, then I'm not sure how long it might be before I get to the 6R80 kit. I will get there eventually though...
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Thanks Jay
I would like the dimensions of the 6r80. I would like the size around the top of the trans to see how much I would have to trim out of the tunnel.
The adapter i was looking at does not require cutting the block. If that was required I would forget it.
I hate to trim anything on the car because it is rust free but since it has been a race car since birth it all ready has a lot of trimming and brackets in it so I guess it won't hurt it.
I all so have a consul that I will have when Andrew gets ready to ship it so any trimming I do will be hidden.
The more I think about this swap the more I like it, I can run a steep rear and still get some reasonable mileage on the hi way and i am confident on the strength of the trans.
I don't see how you make time for all the projects you do. You must only sleep about 30 minutes a night.
CV355, thanks for the links, I will read them tonight when I get off work.
Now I just have to find a low mileage trans and get going on it.
Greg
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Are you sure the adapter kit doesn't require cutting the block? I've seen two of them, and they both need that. Which kit are you looking at?
I'll post some measurements later today.
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Yes it is the Brendtsen part number F01000201.
They have a video on u tube called Ford FE Adapter install showing the installation of their kit.
Greg
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Thanks for that video, it clears a few things up for me. First thing I'd like to note is that based on your video, I'm pretty sure that the V6 6R80 is not what you want. That one will require you to cut the leg off the block. Performance Automatics makes an adapter for putting a V6 6R80 behind a 429-460 or an FE (both engine bolt patterns are in the adapter). I got my hands on one a while back, and put it up against the back of an FE block. In the picture below you can see that the leg of the block goes right where the starter needs to fit.
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/PA Adapter on FE block.jpg)
Performance Automatics specifies that you should use a 6R80 from a V6; their rationale was that the top two bolts for bolting the V8 version of the 6R80 onto the FE would interfere with the top two FE bellhousing bolts. So, the V6 version is what they want to use. But watching the video, I don't think that's what the kit shown in the video is using.
Bendtsen's kit looks like it uses a transmission that is not a V6. I'm guessing it's from a V8. Here's a picture from their video, followed by a picture of my V6 trans from about the same angle. Look at the difference between the locations for the starter on the transmissions:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/6R80 Adapter Video.JPG)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/6R80 V6.jpg)
Also, looking at their adapter plate that is bolted on the engine, the top two bolts for the transmission are very close to the top two FE bellhousing bolts, but they don't interfere. So, my guess is that they are using a V8 version of the 6R80. Greg, you should call them and find that out. If that is true, it would be great to know that it is available, it would save me the trouble of trying to fabricate one.
Here are some measurements from my transmission; I assume that the bulk of the transmission between V6 and V8 are the same, and only the bellhousing area is different:
Overall length: 26 1/2"
Width of the bellhousing at the input shaft centerline: 17"
Width of the pan: 13"
Width of the case 6" back from the bellhousing flange: 12"
Height of the case 6" back from the bellhousing flange: 5" over the transmission centerline
Width of the case 9" back from the bellhousing: 10 1/2"
Height of the case 9" back from the bellhousing flange: 4 1/2"" over the transmission centerline
Most of the rest of the trans is 10" wide, and 4" high over the transmission centerline.
Hope those measurements help - Jay
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Jay, I would 100% buy an adapter kit from you if you made one, the 6R80 is the trans I decided on to put behind the FE in my 72 F250, and from what I have read, that trans can be built to handle a lot of power with just a set of clutches. HD shafts are available as well.
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Hi Jay
They said the trans was from a F150 5.0. They said their adapter would work on the Coyote 5.0 the 5.2, the 5.4 or any of the Mod motors.
Thanks for the sizes. I will get the measurements off my C6 in the shop and compare.
Greg
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Hi Jay
Here are the measurements from my C6.
I took them in the same order you did.
1-35 inches with long tailshaft
2-19 3/4
3-13 1/2
4-18 1/2
5-14 1/2
6-10 wide by 5 1/2
I took this with a measuring tape and the trans is on a cart so I couldn't turn it over to get exact sizes and I could not find my large caliper so these figures are not exact but very close.
This trans is for a 71 Ranchero 429 CJ. My FE trans is in another shop if it makes a difference.
Greg
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Jay, I would 100% buy an adapter kit from you if you made one, the 6R80 is the trans I decided on to put behind the FE in my 72 F250, and from what I have read, that trans can be built to handle a lot of power with just a set of clutches. HD shafts are available as well.
Thanks Joe, but if that Bendtsen one works, I don't know why I would build a different one, unless an SFI flywheel wasn't available for their kit or something. But if I do, I'll post it here.
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Hi Jay
They said the trans was from a F150 5.0. They said their adapter would work on the Coyote 5.0 the 5.2, the 5.4 or any of the Mod motors.
Thanks for the sizes. I will get the measurements off my C6 in the shop and compare.
Greg
Right, in your original post you said you were looking for a V6 transmission, which is why I posted that info. Looks like the V8 trans is what you would need.
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I did in fact but the other forum I found info about this said the only trans that they made an adapter for was the v6 engine so that was what I was looking for.
I found the Bendtsen adpator by mistake while searching for the V6 adapter.
Went to their site and found the videos.
The reviews were good and even if there is no difference in the internals I would rather have a V8 trans.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Greg
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Hi Jay
Here are the measurements from my C6.
I took them in the same order you did.
1-35 inches with long tailshaft
2-19 3/4
3-13 1/2
4-18 1/2
5-14 1/2
6-10 wide by 5 1/2
I took this with a measuring tape and the trans is on a cart so I couldn't turn it over to get exact sizes and I could not find my large caliper so these figures are not exact but very close.
This trans is for a 71 Ranchero 429 CJ. My FE trans is in another shop if it makes a difference.
Greg
I just pulled out an FE C6 and measured it; at the centerline of the shaft, the C6 is only about 8" wide, where the 6R80 is quite a bit thicker, and thicker for a longer distance. Here they are side by side. I think you'd need to cut the floor...
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/6R80 vs C6 2.jpg)
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thanks Jay
That picture is exactly what I needed.
I don't mind cutting the floor. It has all ways been a race car so it will never be a concours restoration. I don't think I will have to cut to much and hope the console will hide it.
I can fab a floor to fit it fairly easy.
I guess I need to start ordering parts and the trans so I can mock up the unit and see exactly what it will take to make it work.
If there is any interest in the conversion I can post some pictures when I start.
It will probably be in Oct. before I will be able to get on it.
Greg
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I would love to see some pictures when you get around to doing it...
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No Problem.
I will document the whole install step by step.
I enjoy doing things like that.
Greg
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I looked at adapting a T45 5 speed from a 99 Mustang to an FE, bellhousing is integral on those too.The Mod Motor pattern looks like it could fit the starter with a modified nose on a Ford Mini starter. Perhaps the Mod Motor starter? Also using a 164 tooth ring gear on a cut down FE flywheel.
Here is an FE and Mod Motor block plate overlay. Maybe if the tranny was rotated counter clockwise a little?
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Jay fwiw I’m headed towards 6r80 for my FE
Spoke with these folks
Bendtsen's Speed Gems
806H S. Division St. Waunakee, WI 53597
PHONE: (763) 767-4480
Guy I spoke with said no cutting on block
Give them call see if tell you the same
Rob
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I saw their video and it is clear that the block does not need to be cut for their adapter setup. Links to their videos are below. First video is for installation of the adapter, which apparently works with several different transmissions, and the second video is 6R80 specific.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9f3BfZ9Le4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGvpTQiEJZM
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Wow, near as I've found, a brand new 6R80 tranny is over $7,600 right from the manufacturer. And I don't believe that includes a convertor. Throw in the FE adaptor and its gotta be closer to $8,500.
Mighty steep, I say!
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I have found 6R80's on the net from F-150's with converter for $585 shipped.
They all have about 100,000 miles on them.
I would prefer one from a Mustang GT and believe I can find a good low mileage one for about $800.
That makes the swap reasonable.
Greg
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I paid about $400 for my V6 version. It came out of a Mustang with 60K miles, and included a 90 day warranty. They are good for close to 600 foot pounds of torque, so even a reasonably well hot rodded FE can use a stock version. Power by the Hour makes one good for 1400 HP for about $6K, I believe.
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A good friend of mine owns a salvage yard. I was installing his new surveillance system yesterday and will finish it in a few days.
He said when I was ready I could go to Okla. City Co Parts auction with him and pick up a whole car for a couple thousand.
I don't need a whole car but with it I could get the wiring and ecm and use it and save $1200.00.
I found a site on the net that shows what pins you need to run it and though it takes a bit of work I have done it before installing newer engins into older cars before their were any aftermarket controllers available.
Greg
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So looking at the $$ amounts
1.adapter $950
2.Controller $1250
3. Used trans $600-$800 V-8 trans
4.torque converter $1200 3000 stall with triple disk lockup.
total= $4000-$4200
I had looked very hard at this If I did have a killer torque converter and C-6 I would head this direction
I have a friend with a 16 GT twin turbo that runs 9.5's thru a stock trans!
the low gear in the trans is a 4.XX ratio !!!!
Just my two cents :)
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I have spent the last year looking at options for the transmissions. Looked at the e4od, top loader, aod, 4r70 tko 600 etc. and they all came out about the same price in the end.
If i decide to buy a totaled car then I can save $1200,00 on the controller by using the factory ecm and stripping out the un needed wiring, but then I will have the 5.0 engine and all the other parts to get rid of and adding another car in my yard will not make my town happy.
I am getting ready to start ordering parts as I am about ready to put my other project on the road and as soon as I get it off the lift I can move the Galaxie in.
Greg
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Received my 6R80 yesterday and decided to take some pictures of it next to my C6 out of my 71 Ranchero 429.
I don't have a FE C6 to compare it to but believe the only difference will be in the bell housing bolt pattern.
I think this is going to be a fun project.
I have decided to install 6R80's in both the 71 and the 63 Galaxie.
Greg
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Look forward to hearing how this goes.
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Me to
I am waiting for some friends to come over so I can put it on the trans jack and put it in the tunnel and see if I have to make any mods to install it.
Greg
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It definetly looks fatter in the back. I would think on a Stang the tunnel would have to be modified alot. But yes this should be a cool if not different upgrade.
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On another forum a member posted some pictures today of the install he did in his 70 Torino. He didn't have to modify the trans tunnel at all.
If you want I can take measurements of my 71 Ranchero tunnel and post them as the drivetrain is out as of now. That way if anyone had a stang they were thinking of installing a 6R80 they could compare and find out if any mods would need to be done.
On the 63 Galaxie the tunnel in very close to the Ranchero so should have no clearence issues with it.
Greg
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Stock transmission tunnel measurements would be nice for people to refer back to in the future. If possible, perhaps you can do the same on the 1963 Galaxie, once the existing transmission is removed?
On another forum a member posted some pictures today of the install he did in his 70 Torino. He didn't have to modify the trans tunnel at all.
If you want I can take measurements of my 71 Ranchero tunnel and post them as the drivetrain is out as of now. That way if anyone had a stang they were thinking of installing a 6R80 they could compare and find out if any mods would need to be done.
On the 63 Galaxie the tunnel in very close to the Ranchero so should have no clearence issues with it.
Greg
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71 Ranchero trans tunnel measurement.
I hope I can make this where it is understandable as I am not good at describing things without a picture.
Front of bottom floorpan to top of firewall-18 !/2 inch's.
Front of front firewall to first downturn of tunnel-12 inch's.
Bottom of floorpan to to top of crossmember 8 inch's.
Width of firewall opening at top of firewall 13 inch's.
Width at bottom of firewall 15 inch's.
With the trans and engine mounted in the car you have a good drop to your trans mount that should give you some extra clearance.
The pictures Chvslayer posted in another forum showed a tight fit but a C6 is a tight fit also.
If any of this doesn't make any sense just ask and I will take some more measurements to try to clarify.
I won't get to start on the Galaxie until I get the Ranchero out of the shop and get the Galaxie on the lift.
Right now the Galaxie engine just went to the machine shop, Having the block blueprinted and pro gram 4 bolt main caps installed. Hopefully I will be able to start on the Galaxie in Sept or Oct.
Greg