FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jspindle on May 03, 2020, 02:14:33 PM
-
I have a Crane Cans short travel hydraulic lifter (35532-16) failure at only 1,900 mile on the street. When I pulled the lifter it was collapsed. I poked at it until it came back up but it feels weak. I want to use solid roller lifter with the hydraulic roller cam. Thoughts?????
Here is what I have.
1966 Side Oiler FE 427 4.250 bore and 4.250 = 482 ci
Bear Block Heads 74cc with Mahle Pistons 930264550 10.6:1
Comp Cams 33-000-11 .669 intake lift .666 exhaust lift
adv. dur 303 303
dur.@.50 248 248 lobe sep 110.00
Comp Cam springs 26055-16 1.204" 155@1.925
435@1.275
Blue Thunder 2x4 w/ Quick Fuel matched 750 cfm
Crane cams lifters hydraulic rollers 35532-16 body dia. 874 follower wheel dia. .700 pushrod seat height 2.320
I did not measure the push rods. Hoping to find a lifter that will work with the one I have.
Anyone done this?? Thanks
-
I think a solid roller will be more likely to fail. A hyd lifter takes up lash, a solid won't, you can certainly tight lash, but if it was just a bad lifter, buy one or a pair.
That being said, if you do go hyd roller, I think Morel is the way to go
-
I have a Crane Cans short travel hydraulic lifter (35532-16) failure at only 1,900 mile on the street. When I pulled the lifter it was collapsed. I poked at it until it came back up but it feels weak. I want to use solid roller lifter with the hydraulic roller cam. Thoughts?????
Here is what I have.
1966 Side Oiler FE 427 4.250 bore and 4.250 = 482 ci
Bear Block Heads 74cc with Mahle Pistons 930264550 10.6:1
Comp Cams 33-000-11 .669 intake lift .666 exhaust lift
adv. dur 303 303
dur.@.50 248 248 lobe sep 110.00
Comp Cam springs 26055-16 1.204" 155@1.925
435@1.275
Blue Thunder 2x4 w/ Quick Fuel matched 750 cfm
Crane cams lifters hydraulic rollers 35532-16 body dia. 874 follower wheel dia. .700 pushrod seat height 2.320
I did not measure the push rods. Hoping to find a lifter that will work with the one I have.
Anyone done this?? Thanks
You're better off just replacing the pair. When you do a solid roller on a hydraulic roller cam, the lash has to be set really tight hot.....like .004-.005". In addition, I know that you just had a failure in 1900 miles, but solid roller lifters won't last forever. As Ross says, they are subject to being pounded against the cam lobe because of lash and they will fail eventually.
Crane doesn't have bad lifters, they're just pricy. I use Morel, but if I were in your spot, I would just throw a new pair of lifters and motor on.
With all of that being said, you have a lot more spring pressure than you need and I'm not sure what standard travel Crane lifters will hold effectively. If your spring measurements are correct, your seat pressure is fine, but if your seat is at 1.925", your open pressure is *over* 435 lbs, my guess is around 450 lbs.
In reality, you need about 375-400 max with that cam.
-
If you go solid roller, you'll need .008 to .010 cold lash, and probably a little more valve spring. Maybe 30-40 more seat and 50 more open. A tightly lashed solid roller at those pressures will run a long time.
Ross is correct that Morel are the best hydraulic rollers. I use Crower on the solid rollers and Morel on the hydraulics. There are several options from Morel. Looks like you would want severe duty and limited travel. Not much different from a solid, really.
-
The spring pressure was suppose to match the cam. I bought the heads loaded. Could my high spring pressure have caused the failure of the lifter? Should I get new springs? Thanks
-
The spring pressure was suppose to match the cam. I bought the heads loaded. Could my high spring pressure have caused the failure of the lifter? Should I get new springs? Thanks
It's possible. I don't know why you need that kind of open pressure with a hydraulic roller.
I know the standard travel Morels say recommended open pressure is around 380-400. Typically, with cams similar to yours, I run about 375-400 and 160/400 spring pressures with the correct camshaft will easily get an FE up to 6500 rpm.
I don't use Crane lifters, so I'm not sure what they're capable of, but if you're approaching 450 lbs open, it's a possibility that you could be exceeding the capability of the lifters.
Generally with higher spring pressures, I'm using the Morel HLT's, which are geared for higher spring pressures.
-
Do you have a build sheet with the heads, is that what you're pulling the numbers from? That spring in Comp's book shows 150 lbs at 1.925" and 410 lbs at 1.275". I'm kinda confused because your specs say 435 @ 1.275", but 1.925 - .670 = 1.255", so you'd actually be higher than 435.
-
Brent,
You are correct. These #s were from the builder. He gave me the Comp Cams part#s too. So I posted his #s, which dont match Comps. I am confused too but havent reached out to the builder yet. Do you have part#s for the best springs and Morel lifters I should use? Thanks for your help. John
-
I use 26120 springs and 5325 lifters but I would reach out to your builder first and discuss it all with him.
-
Thank you.
-
The 26120 spring won't work with you cam. It is a .600 max lift spring, and your info above says .660+. That is a pretty healthy lobe for a hydraulic roller. I think you would have trouble with the 5325 standard Morel lifter when you put enough spring on it. If the spring you have isn't into coil bind, it is probably about the right pressure for the hydraulic roller cam that you have......just the wrong lifter. Going solid requires a little more spring, to control things when lash is introduced. If there ever was a good candidate to run a solid roller on the hydraulic cam, yours is it.......just my opinion. I'll bow out now and let you guys figure it out, but the 26120 isn't your huckleberry.
-
Blair is right, the 26120 won't work with your lift. Sorry about that, I wasn't putting 2 and 2 together because I never run over .620-.630" lift on a hydraulic roller. The 26120 will work with .630" lift, but that's about all she wrote, as they're usually right at .050" from coil bind there.
I have run standard travel Morels with some PAC springs up to 430 lbs without issue, but have never used the Crane lifters, so can't say as to whether they will handle the load or not.
-
Looks like you have Comp's QNX lobes. From looking at the intensity specifications in the lobe catalog, they are a little less aggressive than what I usually run. The extra lift will affect that a little but I think you could get away with 150-160 lbs seat and 375-400 lbs open. If the heads are not CNC ported, the peak hp rpm will not be high enough to really justify a lot of spring pressure.
I would double back with your builder about the cylinder head build specs and double check the spring pressures. If need be, there may be another beehive or small dual spring that you could use.
I'm not really a solid roller lifter on a hydraulic roller cam kinda guy. I've done it before when I have used "hybrid" lobes, but those lobes are designed to be used with either lifter style and the lash is adjusted appropriately. There is usually more than one way to get to the end goal, but if you switch to solid roller lifters, you're looking at a lifter change and a spring change both (maybe even pushrods). IMO, it's just easier to replace the lifter pair and maybe adjust the spring pressures if necessary.
-
What Brent said - mostly because I've already asked same question about a 351C. If you do buy solid rollers, spend the $$$ and get pressure oiling types. I run Howards in the 393 dragster engine and still working good after 3 years. Most people I know use pressure feed solid rollers and have excellent reliability. I'd not blink to run those in a street or street/strip application. The less expensive solids rely on splash oiling - don't do that on a street engine.
Also, I run Howards hydro rollers in the 351C street/strip car. They have been in there for several years without any problems. They down side is that they clearly state that their limit is 6500 RPM. I've tested that and it's dead on. My air shifter is set at 6300.
-
I thought hydraulic lifter sideoiler blocks didn't come around till '68? Maybe I'm wrong, or maybe it started out as a marine or industrial engine, or was drilled for hydraulics? Just curious.
-
Hmmmm. That is a good point, Doug. Jspindle you might want to be sure you have oil galleys in the lifters. It would be odd for a '66 Sideoiler to have been drilled for hydraulic provision. Maybe he meant '68 sideoiler......
-
I'll add that I thought about it a while and decided that while the lifter change was worth buying, buying springs and possibly push rods to complete the swap might be wasted money because eventually I'll put a real SR cam in it. So might as well just let it be for now. Also, in spite of the "owing myself a 10 second car", if I run under 7.50 at our track I have to either slow it down or put on a diaper. Fitting a diaper is a no-go with the current setup, no room. If I converted it to front/rear motor plates and cut out the cross member then I might could fab up a pan... You see how this stuff runs away from you quick LOL.
-
Thanks for all of the feedback. I checked with my builder and the block(1966 427 sideoiler) has been drilled for hydraulic lifter. I did some investigation into the Crane 35532 hydraulic roller lifters that I have. Crane tech support said they were good for 450 lb springs,so like Brent said, my 435lbs on the build sheet my equate to about 450 lbs. That being said I called Morel and decided to stay with hydraulic rollers. Morel's HI RPM HYDRAULIC ROLLERS recommended spring pressure 100-225 seat pressure and 350-550 open pressure and 7000+rpm capable.(part#72440-16) $$$ I will post the engine dyno video and sheet before I lost the lifter. 675 hp and 650 torque. Thanks again!
-
Hold up, hold up.....
That's a Lunati part number and is about twice the price of the Morel part number that everyone normally uses. The Morel part number for a limited travel hydraulic roller lifter is 5329 and they retail around $550. They have the same spring pressure capability and I've had them at 7500 rpm with an FE hydraulic roller.
Who recommended a $1000 Lunati lifter to you?
-
I went to Morel site and Lunati is a distributor for Morel. Tech told me these are Morels Hi Rpm. Maybe I can send them back . I just got them today and they say Lunati on the cross bar. They said these were the Morel HI RPM. What the hell! Thanks Brent.
-
Yeah, you got the double/triple mark-up special.
Lunati does use some Morel lifters, but twice the price is ridiculous. You need part number 5329, if you want to do a short travel, hipo deal.
-
So, not to doubt your builder's word but drilling a sideoiler block for hydraulic lifters is not something that every machine shop can do. In fact, not many of them can do it, and as mentioned previously a 66 sideoiler block was not drilled for those oil passages from the factory. When you get in there to change the lifters, make sure you look to confirm that you have the oil holes, they should go right through the middle of the lifter bores. The factory holes are about 5/16" in diameter. I'd just hate to see you take your builder's word for it and have more problems when you find out he was wrong...
-
I didn't want to push the issue, but I agree. Very few people can do that machining procedure. I think I'd verify the lifter oiling.
-
I don't know guys, with 1900 miles on it, I'm sure he would have figured it out by now. No oil to any of the lifters would make the thing sound like a tin can with rocks in it and it wouldn't have put any power down on the dyno.
On the other hand, a lifter failing isn't unheard of.
-
Brent, I thought the same thing. But I will check. Can you tell me which allen screw plugs to remove to check?
-
You got the intake off of it? Engine still in car?
-
intake off and engine out
-
yes intake is off and engine is out
-
Just pull a pair of lifters out. If there's a hole in the lifter bore going to the next lifter bore, it's drilled. If you follow that hole/passage all the way to the rear of the block, there will be a pipe plug on the rear for it. There should also be a pair of plugs toward the rear of the lifter valley, that are at an angle. That's the crossover between the two lifter passages.
-
Pull a lifter and see if it has the galley drilled. I do that drilling operation from time to time. About $800 to do it these days. Most people won't do it, or find another block. In some cases, drilling the known good block ends up being the best option, but it isn't easy, and the learning curve is expensive if you screw up!
-
Okay I pulled all lifters and the lifter bores are drilled.
-
I figured so. It would have sounded horrible if they weren't.