FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: cjshaker on April 30, 2020, 08:23:30 AM
-
Because I'm tired of driving 40 miles to buy Turbo Blue, 5 gallons at a time, I'm looking at buying a 55 gallon drum, or possibly several 5 gallon cans of race fuel. Where do you guys get it at? How do they typically deliver it, or will they deliver it at all? Looking online has not been much help.
And while I'm on the subject, what octane rating would be required for a 13:1 compression ratio, with aluminum heads and modern chambers? Or what fuel in general would you recommend? Looking at VP's website just creates more questions than answers. Like why are most of their C series race fuels leaded, when most race engines these days have aluminum heads with hardened valve seats? Or why does C14 and C15 both have recommended compression ratios at 14:1 (there's only a difference of 1 octane), but C12 is rated for 15:1 (with an octane rating that is 6 points lower than C14??), and C16 at 17:1? Looking at their Master Fuel Table just creates more questions than answers, so I figured I'd ask the guys who actually use the stuff.
-
I assume you checked with the guys selling gas at any local motorsports track or to a dyno facility. They will usually sell "on the side". A while back, the local supplier to our roundy-round track used to deliver gas to guys at home in 30-gallon containers that tilted to 90ยบ and had a petcock to dispense. Or perhaps a lever valve. Long time ago, but much easier to maneuver than a 50-gallon drum.
-
I buy a drum of C-12 every couple years but lack of runs the past few years means I have the better part of one that is likely going to be lawn mower gas soon because of it's age. We had a friend who would take orders and bring in a truck load from the distributor. Lots cheaper that way and shipping was free. We would go to his place as soon as it arrived and he'd load us with a forklift. He paid for the entire shipment and when a couple guys left him stuck with drums of Q-16 which has a real short shelf life he quit being Mr. nice guy. Now a days there are several local shops that will bring it in for racers.
The VP numbers are confusing and things like C-12 and C-16 are "spec" fuels mandated by NHRA. Since they dumped VP and went with Sunoco it's harder for those who like VP to find any. There are a lot of regulations for shipping and storage so finding a supplier might be difficult depending on where you are. Other brands tend to be cheaper than VP if you can find them. I think C-111 is less $$ and fairly common as a substitute for C-12. 2 years ago the drum of C-12 cost me $950.00. When I started 15 years ago I was buying from a dealer at the track and it was $100.00 for 5 US gallons so that's why the guy above decided to order his (and our) own.
Obviously, this info is of zero help to you but I happen to have time to waste. I suspect there's some good reason why most racers use Leaded however there are a lot of fast "pump gas" cars out there. In your case, as long as you get something around 110 octane then I think the engine will be happy. I stick with what I know works for me.
-
Doug, try Rockett Brand Racing Fuel. Jack Day from Rockett has been a sponsor of Drag Week since it's inception. They have some 100 octane unleaded, but also plenty of higher octane leaded fuels, and it looks like they ship from their dealer network. Their web site doesn't really say if they have dealers in Ohio. Call them up, and say high to Jack for me. He has a 69 Shelby, by the way...
Also, as I understand it leaded fuel inhibits detonation better than unleaded fuel, and I think it's easier to get higher octane with tetraethyl lead in the mix, so that is why it's probably used in most racing fuels. I agree with Dale, 110 octane ought to be fine for your engine.
-
In your case, as long as you get something around 110 octane then I think the engine will be happy. I stick with what I know works for me.
Yep, I could care less who the company is, as long as the fuel works...and I can get it. I only looked at VP because it's popular and came to mind first. And I figured it was confusing enough to try and figure out their "system", let alone trying to look at multiple producers.
I know C12 is very popular, and according to VP, is good for up to 15:1, which is really odd because C14 and C15 are rated for higher compression, yet have lower octane ratings. WTH? And what octane rating do you go by for racing apps? MON, RON or (R+2)/2?
I assume you checked with the guys selling gas at any local motorsports track or to a dyno facility. They will usually sell "on the side".
There is one dyno I'm aware of within 100 miles, and it's at UNOH, and I doubt they would sell on the side. There's one small roundy track in the same distance, but I don't think they supply fuel, and the nearest drag strip that would have fuel is Norwalk, about 1 1/2 hours away. There aren't any speed shops or tracks near me, at least that I'm aware of. I could ask a few Modified track racers around the area, but I don't know them. If I have to, I will, but if I'm going to talk to them, I'd at least like to know what I'm after, so's I don't sound stupid....er.
-
I would suggest a minimum of 110 octane for 13.0:1 compression ratio. In 2016, the EMC engine was at 12.8:1, and it made it on 101 at the EMC, but in 2018, with 13.0, I lost my head gasket on the third pull from detonation. It happened so fast, the pull could not be stopped. We had tested on 110, and was fine before the competition. Joe-JDC
-
Doug, try Rockett Brand Racing Fuel. Jack Day from Rockett has been a sponsor of Drag Week since it's inception. They have some 100 octane unleaded, but also plenty of higher octane leaded fuels, and it looks like they ship from their dealer network. Their web site doesn't really say if they have dealers in Ohio. Call them up, and say high to Jack for me. He has a 69 Shelby, by the way...
Also, as I understand it leaded fuel inhibits detonation better than unleaded fuel, and I think it's easier to get higher octane with tetraethyl lead in the mix, so that is why it's probably used in most racing fuels. I agree with Dale, 110 octane ought to be fine for your engine.
Thanks, Jay. I hadn't considered Rocket, even knowing I'm around them at every Drag Week. I'll check them out. I'd consider getting a barrel at DW, if possible, but I know things can get touchy with the law when transporting a drum of fuel, which I'm probably already pushing with the 100 gallon tank in the bed of my F350.
-
So how do the additives you can buy at the speed shop work? or just a waste of money?
-
I would suggest a minimum of 110 octane for 13.0:1 compression ratio. In 2016, the EMC engine was at 12.8:1, and it made it on 101 at the EMC, but in 2018, with 13.0, I lost my head gasket on the third pull from detonation. It happened so fast, the pull could not be stopped. We had tested on 110, and was fine before the competition. Joe-JDC
Well the Turbo Blue that I get at a pump is rated 110 octane, using the (R+M/2) method. I need to figure out the differences in the ratings. Maybe it'll be just as convenient to fill up a drum at the pump, seeing as it's only a 20 minute drive. Prices were about $9.50 a gallon last Fall, and I imagine race fuel hasn't dropped like pump fuel.
Thanks for the info on your experience, Joe.
-
...If I have to, I will, but if I'm going to talk to them, I'd at least like to know what I'm after, so's I don't sound stupid....er.
Torco is right up the road from me about 8 or 9 miles. I went in sounding stupid, not because I have so much experience at that, but because I knew I'd get more info if he assumed I knew nothing. And I got a one-hour dissertation! Free!
When I had my stereo/alarm shop, I dreaded the "experts" walking in the front door, because half or more of what they picked up from friends was wrong, and they didn't like it when I didn't agree with them.
The fuel guys deal with a lot of people. Let them sell you what they know will work.
-
The fuel guys deal with a lot of people. Let them sell you what they know will work.
I certainly won't act like I know what I'm talking about, but I do prefer to have some minimum knowledge of what the discussion is about, just so I can understand what I'm being told. But when it comes to what works, I'll rely on the guys here who race and build. They've never steered me wrong, and I always get great advice from them. A salesman is usually the last guy I'll solicit advise from, unless he was also a racer.
-
https://petroleumservicecompany.com/sunoco-supreme-112-octane-race-fuel-54-gallon-drum/
https://petroleumservicecompany.com/sunoco-standard-110-octane-race-fuel-54-gallon-drum/
-
https://petroleumservicecompany.com/sunoco-supreme-112-octane-race-fuel-54-gallon-drum/
https://petroleumservicecompany.com/sunoco-standard-110-octane-race-fuel-54-gallon-drum/
Did some reading on their page, checked out the shipping rates and options under their cart, did the math and figured it came out to $11.36 a gallon after taxes and the cheapest shipping rate. And that's with an initial price that's cheaper than VP and Rocket. It's starting to look like getting it 5-10 gallons at a time and getting my own storage barrel may be the best route after all.
-
if you have any boat shops close by , maybe check with them . the one close to me get racing fuel in 5 gallon cans .
-
A good friend of mine running a street driven twin turbo SBF runs BASE fuel. He is making between 12-1300hp. He has good luck with it. He is currently switching to E85, so I will be buying off his remaining stock for my junk. Maybe give them a look.
https://baseracingfuel.com/leaded-race-fuels.html
-
Unexpected update. Today I had to run near the place that sells Turbo Blue, so I decided to take 2 empty VP cans with me to fill up. The price was $7.99 a gallon. That is cheaper than all the other similar fuels that I found online before taxes and shipping! And it's cheaper than it was last year by almost $2, despite an uptick in cost of regular pump gas of .50 cents in the last few days. Needless to say, every trip I make near the place, I will be filling up some cans. Now all I need to do is find a sealable drum to store it in.
Turbo Blue is listed as 100 octane, so it won't work in the new engine, but when mixed 50/50 with Premium it works good in my current iron headed engine at 10.5:1. It stops run-on issues and plug peppering in my current, mostly stock 427. I'm still gonna have to find a source for 110.
For those that get race fuel locally, I don't know if prices have dropped in your areas, but it may be worth checking out. I saved about $20 in 11 gallons, and I didn't even have to switch to Geico!
-
Luckily I have a VP distributor in town. I take my old 55 gal drum over and fill it up every spring with 112. Right at $7.99 or so for the past few years. Seems the bill is $350+ to fill it up(never really empty it every year anymore).
I bought a good drum hand pump to fill my 5 gal cans I keep in the trailer. Works out well. I bet I still have 25 gals left over from last summers short season. This year looks short too and no hurry to fill my drum yet.
I have asked in the past and they keep their supply filled year around for the most part. I typically call them early April to confirm.
We had a few stations carrying Turbo Blue also. I haven't had to buy any for quite some time, though I used to spritz some in the blue truck every once and a while. I remember it being like $3/gal back then!!!
-
Larry, I swear, you live in one of the best places for racers. Summit, build shops, fuel distributors, all within a short drive of you.
The nearest VP distributor I can find is in Sidney, which is 1 hour from me. Not that bad, I suppose, but hauling a 55 gallon drum of race fuel, in the back of a truck, going down I-75, I wonder if I'd run into any problems with the law? So far, looking local has not produced any results.
-
I know this is of no help Doug but Sunoco stations in CT. sell five gallon pails and some even have pumps set up with either 100 no lead or 110 leaded. You can pump it into a container for $10 a gallon or go inside the store where it is stacked next to the register for $15 a gallon! These are convenience stores with fuel, not gas stations.
That sort of action does NOT fly in Massachusetts where I live.
JB
-
North of Lima at the junction of Rt 65 and Rt 115 is a Certified / Sunoco station (at least that's what it used to be, may be different brand now) that had a pump for racing fuel. If memory serves correctly it was 100 or 108 octane. I haven't been there in 5 yrs so cannot confirm its present state of existence but that's not too far from your neck of the woods Doug. Might be worth a field trip to confirm.
-
I have a speed shop near me that sells all different grades of VP racing fuel. The only problem your paying New York prices.
I believe C-12 is on sale regularly 96.00 now 88.99 for a 5 Gallon pail. Shit a 55 gallon drum on line is 500. You just have to pick it up. Or we can all have Larry supply the FE Forum ;).
-
We have two stations in town that pump Sonoco 110 and Silver Dollar Raceway is 21 miles away with multiple choices. I drive 8 miles, fill up the 16 gal tank and 2 or 3 five gal cans.
-
You guys have it easy.. As mentioned, stupid prices here because of the taxes, duty, and exchange rate. A guy was complaining to my Comp Eliminator buddy (who runs C-25) about the price of fuel and Howie just looked sideways and said... If that's your biggest problem then you're in the wrong sport. I don't like it but it is what it is.
-
I'm lucky I guess. Langley race way (roundly round) right down the street. They get me the sunoco drum at cost no shipping.
-
North of Lima at the junction of Rt 65 and Rt 115 is a Certified / Sunoco station (at least that's what it used to be, may be different brand now) that had a pump for racing fuel. If memory serves correctly it was 100 or 108 octane. I haven't been there in 5 yrs so cannot confirm its present state of existence but that's not too far from your neck of the woods Doug. Might be worth a field trip to confirm.
Bugs, that is exactly where I get the Turbo Blue, only I think it's a Marathon now. They did a remodel about a year ago and the name changed, but honestly, I didn't even look at it. Last Fall, after being closed all year, I was only interested in seeing that they still offered the fuel and didn't even notice the name.
-
Larry, I swear, you live in one of the best places for racers. Summit, build shops, fuel distributors, all within a short drive of you.
The nearest VP distributor I can find is in Sidney, which is 1 hour from me. Not that bad, I suppose, but hauling a 55 gallon drum of race fuel, in the back of a truck, going down I-75, I wonder if I'd run into any problems with the law? So far, looking local has not produced any results.
Make a nice stencil and paint "Used cooking oil" on the side of your race fuel drum.
If you ever get caught, and if they ever decide to dip the tank, and if they choose to take the matter further, just tell them this was a drum you had laying around and you used it for fuel because it was nice a clean inside.
-
What's the shelf life on this stuff?
I don't think I would buy more than I would use in 3-4 months.
-
Larry, I swear, you live in one of the best places for racers. Summit, build shops, fuel distributors, all within a short drive of you.
The nearest VP distributor I can find is in Sidney, which is 1 hour from me. Not that bad, I suppose, but hauling a 55 gallon drum of race fuel, in the back of a truck, going down I-75, I wonder if I'd run into any problems with the law? So far, looking local has not produced any results.
Ya, that is why when I think I want to move to warmer climate....I quickly realize that I would lose out on all my perks around here!
As for hauling my drum in my pickup. I don't sweat it, though I'm only going 20 minutes away. It's just a plain drum on the sides, only the top says VP on it. As long as its sealed, it should not be a problem. I'm pretty sure there are regulations on hauling it, but I think only 55 gals is way under any issue. I think it has to be up in the hundreds of gallons before it is a problem.
The fun part is getting the full drum out of the truck. I keep a couple old tires around, remove the tailgate, lean the drum over on its side and roll it off onto the tires. Ya, the drum is a bit worse for wear looking but have no other way to do it. I suppose I could use the engine crane? That sounds like a lot of work for little reward. ;)
Shelf life?
I still have left over in my drum over winter, along with what is in the car over the winter. Never have worried. Runs the same no matter what.
-
For hauling a 55 gallon drum, I lay the drum on its side , so its not noticable , as it is below the side of the box.No sense drawing attention to yourself! To unload the drum from my truck, remove the tailgate, and lay a couple of 2 x4s on the trucks rear bumper, and roll it down the ramp. A buddy does use his engine hoist, with an old serpentine belt looped round the drum as a pick up point. sounds kinda sketchy, but he has been using the same serp. belt for years for picking up iron BB Chevy, 460 Fords, and MoPar Hemi blocks by looping the belt thru the main bearing bores with no issues. Regarding shelf life, I have used VP C12 that has been inside the 55 gallon drum for 2 years that ran as good as fresh gas, although if you race in a class where Tech performs fuel check several times over the course of a weekend, like Stock or Super Stock, at a National event or division points meet, I would look for fresher fuel, or at least take a sample to the fuel check team BEFORE your first time trial, to make sure it will pass. If your fuel fails fuel check, (or is a couple of pounds light), that qualifying run will be considered a DQ. Buying the race gas in 5 gallon cans, at least for VP, is typically much more costly per gallon, than compared to a 55 gallon drum.
-
VP says their fuel is good for 2-3 years, probably depending on how it's stored. The Turbo Blue I use doesn't seem to be affected for at least a couple years. I'd always try to keep it sealed and out of sunlight though. Since it's all leaded, non-ethanol, just like the days of yore, I'd assume that pretty much all those types are good for at least 2 years (although keeping Rorys caveats in mind).
Even mixing it 50/50, 110 gallons of gas certainly won't make it more than 2 years for me. Not at 7-8 mpg it won't..lol
-
I've had 2 drums in my attached garage on several occasions which isn't exactly legal around here but as long as I die in the ensuing fire I don't think they can come after me. I know of guys who will roll a drum out of the truck box onto some tires but not for me. I get my engine hoist and a rather sketchy tow strap configuration to unload.
As for shelf life... 2 years easy as long as it's in a air tight drum. Plastic containers a lot less. Oxygenated fuel like Q-16 are likely good for 6 months tops. Never had an issue with transport but then don't take more than 15 gallons at a time with me plus what is in the car.
-
VP is good,, also check for a local Sunoco dealer. Sunoco 110 is specified for 13:1. So VP 110 should work as well. At 13:1 you won't be mixing it with pump fuel IMHO.
I can mix 50:50 with local 91 to keep from peppering plugs at 10.5:1. If I ran the 12:1 dragster 393 on gas, it'd be straight 110.
Around here Sunoco 110, it's about $440/barrel and it keeps very well in a sealed barrel. At the track it is $9.50/gallon. All I keep here now is Sunoco Methanol because I don't run the door car enough to justify 54 gallons of 110 sitting around. Have 65 gallons of methanol in the shed right now. That's $180/barrel or was last year. And more than enough to freak out the FD if they knew about it. Probably ought to get some window stickers for the shed since there is a mower, tiller and usually 15~20 gallons of pump fuel in there too.
-
At 13:1 you won't be mixing it with pump fuel IMHO.
The next engine absolutely will not be raced with a 50/50 mix, like my current 10.5:1 engine, but it will be ran on the street with straight 93 and a conservative tune, for Drag Week ventures. At the track, it'll be switched over to straight race gas.
A few years ago, we had a fire at a local guys garage/barn (he lived in the country). In it, he had a few tanks of oxy/acetelyn, like most every farmer and gearhead has. While the fire department was fighting the fire, one of the tanks exploded. Luckily, nobody was harmed, but it made a hell of an impression on everyone. Since then, I've kept all my tanks of oxygen and acetelyn and fuel jugs in one corner of my building, at the nearest corner where they would pull in if fighting a fire. I did that so it would be easiest to keep that corner from overheating and exploding a tank...in theory anyway, provided they got there in time. I certainly don't want people getting killed, because usually I have 6 oxy and acetelyn tanks, and about 40-60 gallons of different fuels at any given time in there, which is probably enough to turn the building into toothpicks and coiled steel. :o
-
I have the oxy/acetyle/argon tanks right next to the door so i can pull them out
or shoot a hole in them in case of a fire.
The fire department dont go near a burning building where there is tanks, they let it burn