FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: jayb on April 15, 2020, 05:30:13 PM
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Some of you have seen the thread at the link below, where I eventually made some of the hardware I need to run my cylinder heads on an engine:
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=8549.0
I was happy with the results except that the hardware was not black, like an ARP nut or bolt. CV355 mentioned that a company called Caswell made a do-it-yourself black oxide kit. I looked up their web site and found that I could order the kit for less than $100, so I went ahead with that. The kit arrived yesterday, so today I tried it all out.
The basic kit runs about $60, but they recommend an additional preparation chemical for hardened steels, called the activator, so I got that one as well. The kit included the chemicals for pre-treating the hardened steel, the black oxide coating, and a sealer, plus a couple of white buckets for mixing up the chemicals. Since what I was doing was pretty small, I didn't need to use the buckets, so I ended up using some plastic paint measuring cups. Also required for the process is distilled water. Here's a photo of what I set up to begin the process:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/BlackOx1.jpg)
The process involves mixing the activator and black oxide chemical with distilled water, one part chemical to 9 parts water. For what I needed I hardly used any of the material. The sealer is used at full strength, but they give you two quarts of that with the $60 kit, so there's plenty of that too. I used the small cups in the photo above to measure the activator and the black oxide chemical, along with the distilled water, because the cups have ounces marked on the side. When I was done mixing the chemicals they looked like this:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/BlackOx2.jpg)
The nut in the foreground of the photo was one of my first tries at machining these things and the hole in the nut isn't quite concentric with the outside diameter, so I thought I'd start with this one. I didn't do any prep to the machined surfaces, but the raw surfaces got wire brushed before I started. First you dip the part in the activator and let it sit in there for 3-4 minutes, then take it out and rinse it in the cup of distilled water. Then it goes into the black oxide chemical for 2-5 minutes. They say to agitate the chemical, but all I did was stir it around with a paint stick. After about 3 minutes I took it out and rinsed again in distilled water, then dropped it into the sealer for 2 minutes. Took it out and set it on a paper towel to dry. It looked pretty good, I thought.
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/BlackOx3.jpg)
After it dried for a couple hours I did notice a few spots where the black oxide hadn't really adhered well to the nut. The instructions made a point of washing the parts with soap and water prior to coating them, and I hadn't done that with the first one. So, I took the first five good nuts that I machined, scuffed all surfaces with a wire wheel, and then washed them off in hot soapy water. Then, I went through the same process with these five. They look much better than the first one, and I'm very pleased with the results; here they are next two the other five original nuts:
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/BlackOx4.jpg)
A couple of other comments. One is that the chemicals are corrosive, so you should wear rubber gloves when doing this procedure. Also, their web site calls the finish an "oily" finish using these chemicals, but it doesn't really appear oily to me at all, after the sealer finally dries (which takes a couple hours). It looks just like the finish on an ARP fastener. Needless to say, I'm very pleased with these results. I still have tons of chemical left from the $60 kit, so I should be all set to make more of these fasteners in case I can't find a source to make them for me at a reasonable price.
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Very cool
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I wish you had asked me about this.
The cold oxide is junk. I threw mine away three years ago. Maybe it is fine for minor home use that doesn’t encounter heat, cold, sunlight, or moisture, but for everything else it’ll rust in quick order.
Best longevity was found by using an acid salt immersion, rinse and black oxide. This allowed almost 1 month of real world exposure before it turned brown and rusted.
Two methods have proven decent. One is a true black oxide, but this involves the salts being 285 degrees.
There is also a black oxide for freshly zinc plated parts.
For most stuff zinc plate and black chromate is the best due to it’s ability to not degrade for years.
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Oh, and if you want the technical papers and titration info, I got it all from Caswell’s supplier.
Much better info provided
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The cold oxide is junk. I threw mine away three years ago. Maybe it is fine for minor home use that doesn’t encounter heat, cold, sunlight, or moisture, but for everything else it’ll rust in quick order.
Well, that's unfortunate :( I guess I'll see how this works out. You have a better process for black oxide coating?
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I just zinc plate and use a black chromate.
I considered getting a proper black oxide setup, but I really don’t do enough stuff in it to justify the cost. Even if I did, heating to 285 is troublesome in a small batch shop.
I’ll pm you links to the technical papers, it’ll greatly enhance the quality of your existing process.
Batch some of your parts and set them outside on the porch, see how they fare.
I bring my parts to work and hang them by a blower duct. The 24/7 salt spray shows me what works and what doesn’t
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I was following this and when I saw the Black Oxide part I cringed. Drew is way more up on it than I am but I had some limited painting, coating experience with fasteners in my role here. Black Oxide is next to useless as a protective layer. That is what we found here with weather exposure. Sadly a lot of coaters try to push it and back it up.....real testing shows it does not do well (salt spray etc.) as mentioned. If memory serves we ended up with a black zinc. Not even sure we are still selling that particular vent.
But hey, it is a learning experience right and they look good for now anyway! Glad to see this project coming to fruition.
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Im not getting it. If the parts are coated in oil inside an engine, what’s the problem?
Not arguing just curious as I know nothing about it.
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Im not getting it. If the parts are coated in oil inside an engine, what’s the problem?
Not arguing just curious as I know nothing about it.
I was wondering the same thing! As long as that sealer from the cold process stays on, I can't see how it's an issue.
Maybe throw that first part you made into a coffee can of hot oil and see how it does for a few hours...
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For sure, installing directly inside an engine, no problem.
If you’ve ever spent 80hours metal finishing and find all the parts rust on the shelf.... well it sucks.
I had 20 assembled carbs and had to remove all the throttle plates and redo them when they turned brown. It made me a lil more nervous.
A person could say “you did them wrong.” Having gotten carbs from other restorers that use black oxide, I can see the same issues with their products.
Like I said, try and see.
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ARP does advise that their black oxide process is, "a short-term rust preventative only and any part exposed to the atmosphere will show signs of rust in a matter of days."
No doubt there are more durable processes for parts intended for use in corrosive environments, but you've already matched ARP at their game, Jay. ;D
That's in NO way intended as pushback against your advice on conversion, Drew. I learn something practically every time you post.
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I work for a plating company located in Syracuse, NY. I agree with Drew that the cold black oxide solution is junk. We used to keep some in house for small touch up stuff but eventually disposed of it all. Jay another thing to take into consideration is the hardness of your material. Typically anything over 39RC will require an hydrogen embrittlement relief bake. And usually the harder the base material the more discoloration you will have after the bake, parts will have a reddish hue to them. Zinc plating with a black chromate may be a better option. With that process you are able to embrittlement bake after Zinc plating and chromate the parts after the bake without introducing embrittlement back into the part.
Fred
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Im not getting it. If the parts are coated in oil inside an engine, what’s the problem?
Not arguing just curious as I know nothing about it.
x2
I can certainly understand Drew's issues, being exposed to weather. Black oxide seems to be all over the place. I've had black oxide fasteners that rusted within weeks, being exposed to the elements, but then I've had an AMK bolt kit on my Mach for over 20 years and the black oxide fasteners still look great. Granted they have seen limited rain and zero salt, but still much MUCH better than other plated fasteners that I've seen and used. I think zinc is typically used on parts that are exposed to weathering, and it seems to hold up better. But I understand that Drew is using it to reproduce correct coatings for his carbs.
I think Jay's nuts look pretty good ;D ;D
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^^^^^LOL
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Zinc plating with a black chromate may be a better option. With that process you are able to embrittlement bake after Zinc plating and chromate the parts after the bake without introducing embrittlement back into the part.
Fred
I would think the best process would be:
Hand solvent clean
Remove scale via abrasive means
Rinse with fresh water, no acids or alkali to reduce hydrogen introduction
Plate low current with acid chloride
Bake 300, 4 hours
1% sulfuric to activate
Black chromate 30 seconds
Air dry under 120
Again tho, if he is happy with current results, rock on. Just don’t acid soak too long prior to oxide dip.
Maybe store in a bag with some oil.
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Although the application black oxide coatings may provide some benefits post installation, I believe that the true intention is solely to maintain the oxidation event, if only for appearance, but also note that the surface oxidation can lead to component failure, for the the storage period between manufacturer and the end user, aka. to extend the shelf life.
Also consider the effect any such coatings may present to the anticipated torque values; for example ARP has from many camps been criticized for the application of their black coating as creating irregularities in the torque sums required for intended fastener elongation and preload sums; hence one of the reasons they recommend several pre-torquing events prior to the final, if only to smooth, compress and or scrub away this coating. :-\
Scott.
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Although the application black oxide coatings may provide some benefits post installation, I believe that the true intention is solely to maintain the oxidation event, if only for appearance, but also note that the surface oxidation can lead to component failure, for the the storage period between manufacturer and the end user, aka. to extend the shelf life.
Also consider the effect any such coatings may present to the anticipated torque values; for example ARP has from many camps been criticized for the application of their black coating as creating irregularities in the torque sums required for intended fastener elongation and preload sums; hence one of the reasons they recommend several pre-torquing events prior to the final, if only to smooth, compress and or scrub away this coating. :-\
Scott.
HEY!!! I hold the copyrights to all professor-speak on this forum. Now I'm going to have to come up with some really obscure fact to answer this challenge ;)
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I's sure is sorry, don't mean to start no stir nor stomp on no toes, as I sure ain't smart-nuff to be one of them thar profes-whatever types, just tyin be as clar-as-day in them thar story tellins ya-no! ::)
Scott
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Gun blueing if that is a word ??? Is a form of black oxide, Iron tri oxide
A litle more work with that but pretty durabel but need help of a coat of oil
You clean with acetone treat it with the solution dont remember the mix now
put it in steam cupboard for a few hours until it is red with rust then
polish it with a very fine stainless brush
I figure overkill for Jays nuts. And Acetone burns on the skin ;D
I have a Story related to that. A now deseased friend got crabs when he was
15-16 something. He thought it was to embarrasing to go to the doctor so
he decided to fix it by him self. He locked him self in the bathroom and shaved
his nuts, Hmmm better wash with something......Hmmm Acetone that will teach
the MFs a lesson ;D ;D. So he squirted acetone over the crotch, first it was coold
then it burned then it inflicted the worst pain ever he was screaming and trying
to rinse it with water and his mother banging on the door, Gunnar Gunnar whats up,
whats up? why are you screaming ;D ;D ;D ;D
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LMAO!! So, did he get rid of the crabs?? ;D ;D
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LMAO!! So, did he get rid of the crabs?? ;D ;D
Yes not a trace of them after that ;D ;D
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I am surprised he didn't end up with black oxided nuts!
One of the shop workers used hand sanitizer on his "unit", He screamed out for a minute or two behind the locked rest room door. He "claimed" he used hand sanitizer "before" he unzipped. Smarter minds believe differently.
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OUCH! Acetone on freshly-shaved delicate skin can not feel good :o :o
Hopefully Gunnar's gun didn't suffer any permanent effects...
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I knew a guy who tried that, but with Raid- for killing bugs, right? Man, did he holler :-[
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I heard down here in AR-Kansas that moon shine works too....stuff is strong enough that both the crabs and the person gets drunk. Normally one wins the fight or both just too sauced up to care. Just don't light a match or the whole things goes up in flames! Just ignore the echo of hollering in the hills. HAHAHA. No first hand experience here now, just heard it threw the channels.
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Boy did this post go sideways lol.
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Boy did this post go sideways lol.
Back on track
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuP4m6L95K4
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Deleted.