FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fairlaniac on March 23, 2020, 06:00:03 PM
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I've never used one, the kind you put on with the carburetor bolt pattern. Any tips or words of confidence?
I've always used a length of chain. I thought I had my engine dropped in but could not get any comfortable tilt. The tilter I have should have stayed with the coronavirus. So looking at an engine lift plate.
thanks,
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You mean one of these Doug?
If so, no problem at all.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjFZR680/97-C55-AE9-F576-43-FD-AD24-12-C21918766-B.jpg)
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They will lift a complete 460 and c6 into a 75 f150 , never had a problem with them as long as the threads are good in the manifold. That is with aluminum manifolds. Use it with confidence. Rob
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All I’ve ever used. Non issue.
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I was removing an engine from my Fairlane, and I hooked up one of those plates on the intake, and started lifting. I usually remove the three bolts on the motor mounts, and leave the mounts in place, but I missed one bolt on each side, and started lifting. Picked up the whole front of the vehicle off the jack stands before I saw the problem. Haven't doubted since. Joe-JDC
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The older Edelbrock's I am used aren't the best castings. Somewhat brittle compared to others. I wouldn't use it on an aluminum intake. It would be a freak accident if the carburetor pad were to crack, but so is having a body part crushed. Other than that you can hook it on the rear hole and lift engine and transmission together.
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I have been using the carb lift plates for years on FEs, with absolutely zero issues. Usually with the heavy steel Lakewood scattershield , clutch and flywheel all installed. And thats while using a 50+ year old Ford Sidewinder intake manifold. One time, just for fun, I removed 2 of the carb nuts while the engine was being held up in the air with the lift plate, nothing happened. If 2 carb studs are adequate , 4 is almost "over kill".
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One single Grade 2 5/16" fastener will take about 3000 lbs of force before it begins to yield. Even if you look at 75% of that proof load, you're at about 2000 lbs of force.
You're fine.
The only time I don't use a carb plate is when the engine is a dual carb setup or similar, then I use a sling.
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Thanks everyone. I'll use one and get 'er done.
Thanks!
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The only time I don't use a carb plate is when the engine is a dual carb setup or similar, then I use a sling.
I used two lift plates, each hooked up to a tilter arm. Worked like a charm.
Joe’s story above about lifting a car, I have accidentally done that as well. Happy to know I’m not alone on that one
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This Mac lifter/tilter works very good. A bit on the expensive side, but it makes it much easier when you don't have help.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtd-701001
And the same as the others, I've used the standard lifting plates many times without issues. And like Brent, I use 2 on dual carb intakes.
Doug, if you don't want to purchase that tilter, I'd gladly send you mine to use, then just send it back when you're done. Just an idea, if it helps you out.
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This Mac lifter/tilter works very good. A bit on the expensive side, but it makes it much easier when you don't have help.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtd-701001
And the same as the others, I've used the standard lifting plates many times without issues. And like Brent, I use 2 on dual carb intakes.
Doug, if you don't want to purchase that tilter, I'd gladly send you mine to use, then just send it back when you're done. Just an idea, if it helps you out.
Thanks but I stabbed it in this morning. I took a few minutes to look at my tilting lifting jig and cut a couple links off and drilled a new hole for the shackle and got the geometry needed.
I did order one of those lifting plates from Summit for future use. Thank you for the offer to use your.
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The only situation "I" would not use one on is a fabricated sheet metal manifold. Everything else is fine. All cast iron 460 with C6 attached is no problem as already mentioned.
Randy
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I'll admit I was a skeptic. Thought I would buy one but would see those lift plates made out of cheesy 10 gauge material and change my mind. Finally made a few my own out of 1/4" on the plasma table which in my opinion is the only way to go. The added thickness is nice too so you don't have to hunt up a stack of washers and helps ensure the plate won't distort and pull sideways on the studs.
Key thing is make sure it is clamped down flat. First time was on an old iron intake to get a feel for it then on an old Streetmaster intake with a couple marginal holes in the carb pad. Full dress with overdrive and np435 attached. They are awesome so much easier to work around the engine.
I have 3 or 4 of them with only the 4 hole 4150 pattern the extras for use as intake block off plates for engines in storage.
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Buddy used a plate to lift his full cast iron 460/doug nash 5 spd. It did it, but it was not looking too healthy when done. He then rebuilt it and welded it solid for years of service. I have a plate, but don't really have a need for it unless taking my crane to a buddies place and they are handy to have.
I've had a vintage tilter(30 yrs?) that I always use. I hook the exhausts ports in 4 corners and go to it. The new Harbor Fraud taiwanesse versions look sketchy at best.
I have a folding engine crane. I drilled/tapped the one support leg going up to the top of the pivot various sizes from 1/4-1/2" and bought a selection of eyebolt pairs and store them in the holes. I have a couple selections of chains, a slim nylon sling and my tilter all at easy reach for any possible need.
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No problem using the carb plates, as others have said, the bolts are in full tension and plenty strong. Will say last time I slid the engine in my Merc, I did it with the trans connected and used an engine tilter. I'd used cheapo Harbor Freight models which are all but useless, bought an OTC for $55 and it was money well spent, very nice being able to tilt a few degrees either way as you're easing it over the rad support.
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Have one, it's been picking up engines for over 20 years. No issues.
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60kpsi tensile strength yields around 3,000-3,200lbs on a single G2 5/16" bolt, assuming it is 100% tensile and no shear. You can suspend a typical 4-door car with a single Grade 8 1/4-20 bolt or C12.9 M6 bolt. Can, doesn't mean should, but it gives a sense of scale to the strength of materials.
Where a carb plate can fail is:
1) Hardware is compromised (rusty bolts, hydrogen embrittlement, stress fractures/elongation from previous use, torqued beyond 75% yield or drastically unevenly, etc)
2) Chain is compromised (same as previous failure modes)
3) Intake is compromised (too weak to begin with such as sheet metal, stress fractures in castings, threads stripped, etc)
4) Weld failure (bad weld, damaged from previous use, etc)
Plus unique circumstances that I won't get into because it would be a long list...
A carb plate is actually much safer than bolting down chain to heads/intake because the load is distributed far better between fasteners. The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear, whereas the chain method always put shear force on the fasteners which is the quickest way to cause failure. I have never witnessed a carb plate failing, but I have seen chains and fasteners snap when loaded improperly.
When I train up new engineers, I always get asked "how do you pick the right hardware sizes and number of fasteners?"
1) Determine working loads/moments
2) Determine default fastener size based on min thread engagement requirements (material thickness or thread engagement = 1.5x dia for ferrous, 2.0x dia ferrous, min)
3) If the working loads/moments exceed the tensile or shear strength of a fastener sized for min thread engagement, and material thickness cannot be increased or reinforced, add fasteners to distribute loading, perform FEA if application has potential to cause failure or injury (in some cases, add torque pads to prevent deformation)
4) If forces aren't the limiting factor, default to what is the easiest to manufacture and at the lowest cost (usually means oversize it, tiny hardware is more expensive than larger, common sizes)
99.9% of fasteners used on the planet are drastically oversized based on the loads/moments they see. Just for S&Gs, I designed up an example assembly using "appropriately sized" hardware and material thicknesses based on loading, and the fasteners were all insanely tiny. In that example, an M6 bolt would have been 100x oversized, but far easier for the machinist to cut threads and a builder to install than M2.5s everywhere. The assembly looked goofy and fragile, but was designed with a true 4x safety factor. I showed it to younger engineers to illustrate why not all fasteners or material thicknesses are designed solely for load factors.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/us-bolts-tensile-proof-load-d_2066.html
Now, with all that said... I pucker a little every time I see an engine hanging from a carb plate, even though the math says it is totally fine :)
Same goes for tractor tipping angles. I hit 5 degrees on my tractor and I freak out, even though I know a static 22.5 is safe, mathematically. Sorry for the long post, this is a subject I enjoy.
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60kpsi tensile strength yields around 3,000-3,200lbs on a single G2 5/16" bolt, assuming it is 100% tensile and no shear. You can suspend a typical 4-door car with a single Grade 8 1/4-20 bolt or C12.9 M6 bolt. Can, doesn't mean should, but it gives a sense of scale to the strength of materials.
Where a carb plate can fail is:
1) Hardware is compromised (rusty bolts, hydrogen embrittlement, stress fractures/elongation from previous use, torqued beyond 75% yield or drastically unevenly, etc)
2) Chain is compromised (same as previous failure modes)
3) Intake is compromised (too weak to begin with such as sheet metal, stress fractures in castings, threads stripped, etc)
4) Weld failure (bad weld, damaged from previous use, etc)
Plus unique circumstances that I won't get into because it would be a long list...
A carb plate is actually much safer than bolting down chain to heads/intake because the load is distributed far better between fasteners. The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear, whereas the chain method always put shear force on the fasteners which is the quickest way to cause failure. I have never witnessed a carb plate failing, but I have seen chains and fasteners snap when loaded improperly.
When I train up new engineers, I always get asked "how do you pick the right hardware sizes and number of fasteners?"
1) Determine working loads/moments
2) Determine default fastener size based on min thread engagement requirements (material thickness or thread engagement = 1.5x dia for ferrous, 2.0x dia ferrous, min)
3) If the working loads/moments exceed the tensile or shear strength of a fastener sized for min thread engagement, and material thickness cannot be increased or reinforced, add fasteners to distribute loading, perform FEA if application has potential to cause failure or injury (in some cases, add torque pads to prevent deformation)
4) If forces aren't the limiting factor, default to what is the easiest to manufacture and at the lowest cost
99.9% of fasteners used on the planet are drastically oversized based on the loads/moments they see. Just for S&Gs, I designed up an example assembly using "appropriately sized" hardware and material thicknesses based on loading, and the fasteners were all insanely tiny. In that example, an M6 bolt would have been 100x oversized, but far easier for the machinist to cut threads and a builder to install than M2.5s everywhere. The assembly looked goofy and fragile, but was designed with a true 4x safety factor. I showed it to younger engineers to illustrate why not all fasteners or material thicknesses are designed solely for load factors.
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/us-bolts-tensile-proof-load-d_2066.html
Now, with all that said... I pucker a little every time I see an engine hanging from a carb plate, even though the math says it is totally fine :)
Same goes for tractor tipping angles. I hit 5 degrees on my tractor and I freak out, even though I know a static 22.5 is safe, mathematically. Sorry for the long post, this is a subject I enjoy.
I design a lot of equipment for our steel mill operations and always get into bolt yields. However as you said. When I see an engine hanging...................... that is why I asked my original question.
Thanks!
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I design a lot of equipment for our steel mill operations and always get into bolt yields. However as you said. When I see an engine hanging...................... that is why I asked my original question.
Thanks!
It's funny how that works. We both know the math behind it, but it just doesn't "look right."
8 years ago I was working on a system that needed M64 and M80 fasteners in several areas due to shock loading. I'll never forget the machinist's face when I handed him that drawing package... That's what the math called for, and it did not look right, but it functioned properly.
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"The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear,"
This is not true unless the load is perfectly centered on the plate and there is not tilt in the plate.
(assumes chain is connected to center of plate)
Picky comment I know.
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Common Grade 2 5/16 is around 2900 lbs proof load and there's 4 of them. Considering I use ARP items everywhere, the 4 carb studs are well double that each. I don't have the thread strength for 5/16 thread in aluminum, but should be well up there and most studs thread in at least double diameter. What Me Worry
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This from their FAQ section. Wondered why when I saw it before this thread started.
"Edelbrock does NOT recommend using a carburetor lift plate to remove or installing an engine. The Edelbrock intake manifolds are made of aluminum and the 5/16” carb flange holes are not Heli-coiled"
Sounds like the plate is safer than the 'various' methods being used to me.
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This from their FAQ section. Wondered why when I saw it before this thread started.
"Edelbrock does NOT recommend using a carburetor lift plate to remove or installing an engine. The Edelbrock intake manifolds are made of aluminum and the 5/16” carb flange holes are not Heli-coiled"
Sounds like the plate is safer than the 'various' methods being used to me.
Probably for reasons of being sued if something went wrong. Not uncommon for manufacturers to do that.
I admit I still don't like the "idea" of lifting an engine with an aluminum intake, using a plate, but I have yet to hear of an incidence when one failed, including the intake threads, which was always my concern.
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I use a homemade carb plate, also made one for dual quads, it's simply two pieces of 1 1/2" angle iron about 18" long that bolt to the four carbs studs in a row with a couple holes drilled in to run a 7/16" 4" long bolt through side to side that the hook fits on. Two positions so it will balance with the bellhousing and clutch or without.
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When I was younger I worked at a shop that built dirt track big block and small block chevys. We had a piece of 2"x 4" square tubing with 2 flanges that we would bolt to the lift eyes in the carb plate using 3/8" bolts. We would slide the tow motor fork in the tubing to pick them up. I used to lift those chevys 12' in the air to put them on the top of the storage shelves. Never once had a problem. In my shop I use an engine leveler that I use the 4 corner intake bolts. I've found that to be easier for me by myself.
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"The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear,"
This is not true unless the load is perfectly centered on the plate and there is not tilt in the plate.
(assumes chain is connected to center of plate)
Picky comment I know.
True to an extent. If everything is torqued properly and the two mating surfaces are flush, then it becomes tricky to calculate what's going on. The bolts wont feel any shear unless the friction between the plate and intake is exceeded and it shifts in place. When fasteners are used properly, the mating bodies are considered solid unless external forces exceed that friction created by the fasteners imparting force.
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I believe Darin Morgan once cautioned on the use of lift plates on heavily ported single plane intake manifolds.
For un-ported aluminum intakes or cast iron this would not be an issue at all.
Cheers
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This from their FAQ section. Wondered why when I saw it before this thread started.
"Edelbrock does NOT recommend using a carburetor lift plate to remove or installing an engine. The Edelbrock intake manifolds are made of aluminum and the 5/16” carb flange holes are not Heli-coiled"
Sounds like the plate is safer than the 'various' methods being used to me.
I'd venture to say every Edelbrock intake that has came through here has had a lift plate bolted to it.
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I haven't had a manifold break either. However, interesting that Edelbrock has issued this caution.
Perhaps they have seen some (perhaps non Ford applications) where a manifold did break when using a lift plate.
Good info.
Cheers
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"The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear,"
This is not true unless the load is perfectly centered on the plate and there is not tilt in the plate.
(assumes chain is connected to center of plate)
Picky comment I know.
True to an extent. If everything is torqued properly and the two mating surfaces are flush, then it becomes tricky to calculate what's going on. The bolts wont feel any shear unless the friction between the plate and intake is exceeded and it shifts in place. When fasteners are used properly, the mating bodies are considered solid unless external forces exceed that friction created by the fasteners imparting force.
Yes the friction created by the fasteners between two surfaces is often greater than the shear strengt of the bolts
in a correct designed construction
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"The plate ensures that the bolts all see 100% tension and no shear,"
This is not true unless the load is perfectly centered on the plate and there is not tilt in the plate.
(assumes chain is connected to center of plate)
Picky comment I know.
….And that shear force pretty much is nil.
True to an extent. If everything is torqued properly and the two mating surfaces are flush, then it becomes tricky to calculate what's going on. The bolts wont feel any shear unless the friction between the plate and intake is exceeded and it shifts in place. When fasteners are used properly, the mating bodies are considered solid unless external forces exceed that friction created by the fasteners imparting force.
Yes the friction created by the fasteners between two surfaces is often greater than the shear strengt of the bolts
in a correct designed construction
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To beat a dead horse - why not better than thinking about C19.
I underrstand the theory but this is highly variable mechanics dependant on many things inclluding material hardness, flatness, and surface roughness. We are talking about $29.95 cheap 1/8 inch plate stock, 4 fasteners over 4" apart, pretty sure in this particular general application there is not as muh friction as you think except right around the bolt heads/nuts and better if washers are used.
I think the real thing to watch out for is not the plate or bolts but poorly machined or "used" aluminuim intake threads, the major diameter is critical for tensile strength, have witnessed many an off-sized thread, even new, compounded by use that knocks the major diameter off, loose/wobbly bolts going in is a red flag.
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To beat a dead horse - why not better than thinking about C19.
I underrstand the theory but this is highly variable mechanics dependant on many things inclluding material hardness, flatness, and surface roughness. We are talking about $29.95 cheap 1/8 inch plate stock, 4 fasteners over 4" apart, pretty sure in this particular general application there is not as muh friction as you think except right around the bolt heads/nuts and better if washers are used.
I think the real thing to watch out for is not the plate or bolts but poorly machined or "used" aluminuim intake threads, the major diameter is critical for tensile strength, have witnessed many an off-sized thread, even new, compounded by use that knocks the major diameter off, loose/wobbly bolts going in is a red flag.
You start getting into DFMEA/PFMEA territory, but you are absolutely correct. There are so many factors to consider, but the vast majority are likely to be outliers in the case of a failure. Whenever I had to do a FMEA (Failure mode and effects analysis), the top of the analysis was always the obvious items. Eventually you start getting into the highly improbable bizarre scenarios that basically mean "I am out of ideas on how this thing can fail, but I want the report to look complete so here goes nothing..." What's crazier is when one of those scenarios happens.
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As others have stated the lift plates work fine in nearly all applications.
I would only be cautious if intake manifold was heavily ported (single plane type - where there is less integrity)
I prefer the engine lift tilt bar for engine installations.
Makes for a more painless install or extraction.