FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: gregaba on March 14, 2020, 12:34:07 PM
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I am getting ready to build my engine to go in a 63 Galaxie.
So far I have a stock bore and stroke [428] forged h beam rods and pistons [Scat], Fe power intake adapter, timing cover, chain set, Trick flow single plane intake and Sniper EFI and aluminum heads.
I just received my new C8AX-6250-D cam.
I will be running a C-6 with a Doug Nash 2 overdrive unit with it. It has a Roush-Yates Detroit locker with 390 gears.
This is build for the street with maybe 5 or 6 trips to the strip every year but mostly to make cruise night and the local cars and coffee show every month.
I would like to run a 12-1 compression ratio [Static] or higher with 91 octane gas. This is the highest octane I can buy everywhere. Race gas is available but expensive. I looked into CNG but the 10 to 13 thousand for the system is a little much for what I want to do and they said it would only work with port injection so I would have to go to the megasquirt system which is a couple thousand more.
The reason I was posting this is because I wanted to know if anyone had ran this kind of compression on the street with the Snow water-methanol injection system and how it worked out. I would run 70% methanol and 30% water.
Any advice would be great.
Thanks
Greg
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Greg, I have no experience with the methanol injection, so I can't be of much help there.
I do, however, have to ask why you opted for the copy of the C8AX camshaft. With 330° of duration at .015" lift and over 100° of overlap, it's mostly a "Dairy Queener" camshaft.
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Hi Brent
There are several reasons for going with the monster cam.
I have 3 daily drivers a 2013 F 250 used for work and the 71 CJ which I will finish this year [hopefully in 2 to 3 months] and a 17 edge for gas mileage..
I bought the Galaxie on a whim and really don't need it.
All the people around here are off brand racers and all I hear is how much a dog the FE engine is.
I kind of got to them with my 2013 Boss 302 but got tired of driving a computer with wheels and sold it to finance the 71 build.
With all their talk they would shut up when I would drive the 71 around them as they lost to many times to me [before I decided to rebuild it 2 years ago].
I want the 63 to be as close as I can get it to a 63-64 type race car that I can drive on the street.
It won't be driven everyday and is just a toy I can break out on a Friday or Saturday night.
I thought about a stroker kit for it but decided to build a 63 style car as they would in the day with a few modern add on's.
I know this isn't the best decision as I won't be able to resale it but sure am looking forward to the fun of driving it.
The car was an original bought as a race car in 63 by a racer who lived about 35 miles from me and I know the car from the 60's.
I removed the roll bar but left all the other race parts on it. It has 23,000 miles on it from new and has rarely been driven on the street.
I know I could go with a more modern cam design but wanted to stay as period correct as I could-just wish I Had a 427 instead of a 428 but can live with the 428.
Greg
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What are the specs on the cam? You may not need the water/methanol injection, if I recall correctly that cam has a whole bunch of duration.
When I ran the Snow system on my supercharged engine that said don't go any more than 50/50 on the mix, apparently more methanol doesn't really help.
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Hi Brent
There are several reasons for going with the monster cam.
I have 3 daily drivers a 2013 F 250 used for work and the 71 CJ which I will finish this year [hopefully in 2 to 3 months] and a 17 edge for gas mileage..
I bought the Galaxie on a whim and really don't need it.
All the people around here are off brand racers and all I hear is how much a dog the FE engine is.
I kind of got to them with my 2013 Boss 302 but got tired of driving a computer with wheels and sold it to finance the 71 build.
With all their talk they would shut up when I would drive the 71 around them as they lost to many times to me [before I decided to rebuild it 2 years ago].
I want the 63 to be as close as I can get it to a 63-64 type race car that I can drive on the street.
It won't be driven everyday and is just a toy I can break out on a Friday or Saturday night.
I thought about a stroker kit for it but decided to build a 63 style car as they would in the day with a few modern add on's.
I know this isn't the best decision as I won't be able to resale it but sure am looking forward to the fun of driving it.
The car was an original bought as a race car in 63 by a racer who lived about 35 miles from me and I know the car from the 60's.
I removed the roll bar but left all the other race parts on it. It has 23,000 miles on it from new and has rarely been driven on the street.
I know I could go with a more modern cam design but wanted to stay as period correct as I could-just wish I Had a 427 instead of a 428 but can live with the 428.
Greg
I can understand the desire for vintage pieces. Old school cool is just....well....old school cool.
The issue is that camshaft has a 273° duration @ .050" lift. 107LSA on a 102 ICL. It's a 7500-8500 rpm camshaft and will most likely be a bubbling mess on the street, especially if the Holley EFI won't go open loop.
That cam would need something like a 4.88-5.13 gear, especially in a heavy car. A 428 isn't big enough to really make it perform on the street and most setups wouldn't perform at the strip with it.
To put it in perspective, I run smaller camshafts on 511 cubic inch Tunnel Port engines and peak them at 7000-7200 rpm. Engines just don't keep making more horsepower as you add more and more camshaft. At some point, the cylinder head, induction, and bottom end can't handle it, and then you end up with an engine that has zero power down low, plus it can't pull high enough to make any power up high.
You could take 30 degrees out of the duration on that camshaft and run quicker....
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E85 would certainly work well with 12:2 CR.
Quickfuel E85 850 carb perhaps.
The old 330 .600" Ford racing cam will certainly sound awesome.
You will certainly not want a 10" 3000 stall converter with that cam and cubes.
5000 stall would be more in the ball park.
I drive on the street with 5500 stall 3.89 gear detroit locker and drag radials.
Big cooler on the transmission and all is well.
With the right compression ratio and converter it will certainly not be a dairy queener.
I do not think that is an 8500 rpm cam - lol, far from it. 7000 rpm yes.
Cheers
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I think it’s way too radical, I am with Brent. If it’s really 330 advertised and over 270 at 50, 107 LSA you will not be happy unless it’s lashed so loose it hammers parts
If the specs aren’t accurate different story but 428 cubes and 270 @ .050?
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There are a few old Ford guys that have run that cam in the 60's and 70's.
Yes it is an old slow lift curve camshaft - very old school.
But it did work with 427.8 cubes back then with 12:1 CR.
Valve springs then required slower camshaft profiles.
Newer cams will have much higher acceleration rates and make more power with less duration.
That old cam is not radical at all - it is a very lazy lobe.
Yes it will require a very high stall converter. No need to "loose lash" it at all.
If you are running less than 4500 stall converter then I agree - get a different cam.
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E85 would certainly work well with 12:2 CR.
Quickfuel E85 850 carb perhaps.
The old 330 .600" Ford racing cam will certainly sound awesome.
You will certainly not want a 10" 3000 stall converter with that cam and cubes.
5000 stall would be more in the ball park.
I drive on the street with 5500 stall 3.89 gear detroit locker and drag radials.
Big cooler on the transmission and all is well.
With the right compression ratio and converter it will certainly not be a dairy queener.
I do not think that is an 8500 rpm cam - lol, far from it. 7000 rpm yes.
Cheers
With a 428 and decent heads, it just takes about 250 degrees to peak at 7000. The extra 20 degrees does nothing but increase the overlap without gain.
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Yes a modern fast lift curve cam with 250+ degrees of duration may peak at 7000 rpm with 428 cubes and a decent head.
We aren't talking modern cam here. This is an old lazy cam profile. It wasn't 8500 rpm even in a 427 medium riser.
You have your opinions as do others.
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There are a few old Ford guys that have run that cam in the 60's and 70's.
Yes it is an old slow lift curve camshaft - very old school.
But it did work with 427.8 cubes back then with 12:1 CR.
Valve springs then required slower camshaft profiles.
Newer cams will have much higher acceleration rates and make more power with less duration.
That old cam is not radical at all - it is a very lazy lobe.
Yes it will require a very high stall converter. No need to "loose lash" it at all.
If you are running less than 4500 stall converter then I agree - get a different cam.
It may have worked with crappy heads and crappy valve jobs of the era, but it’s too much cam for anything but radical sound IMO Nothing to do with the ramp acceleration, even if it was 292 adv the 273 @ .050 on that tight center is too much for the planned use
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Yes a modern fast lift curve cam with 250+ degrees of duration may peak at 7000 rpm with 428 cubes and a decent head.
We aren't talking modern cam here. This is an old lazy cam profile. It wasn't 8500 rpm even in a 427 medium riser.
You have your opinions as do others.
I'm not using "opinions".
What do you think overlap does? You either have a combination that's efficient enough to use it at very high rpm, or you don't. When you don't, the cam doesn't serve any purpose other than a sound machine.
This doesn't have anything to do with aggressive ramps either. Even a "modern camshaft" with 272° degrees of duration at .050" lift, with a 107 LSA doesn't have any purpose in a street car other than sound.
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Ah, I remember you from FB, where you were also told by many that the D cam is not a street cruiser, but by saying stuff like "monster cam", you're not getting it, but are after the baddest sounding critter on the boulevard. That it will be, but it will also be a rolling spaz attack on the street up until its effective powerband, which is around 4K-8K, which any experienced FE guy will tell you is not street 428 territory. It also had nothing to do with 1963, it came along in 68 in the Tunnel Port times. If you try street racing with that cam in a 428 and 3.90 gears, you will likely prove your Brand X buddies right, as they will be at the next light before you get it wound up high enough to make any power, and then that cam will want to take your 428 where it can't go without air conditioning the block and pan.
There was a guy down around Hayward in the mid 70s that had a 69 Mach1 with a decent 427 and a D cam, drove it to work every day for a while as it was his only car and it was only a couple miles. 4 spd and 5.14s, and it was still a PITA to drive in the city, and once it hit 4K, wanted to orbit Mars
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Not me from FB as I have been bared from them for years. Never talked cars or engines while I was on there.
Looks like I will rethink using the D cam. I am finding out what I didn't know about it.
Looked at a stroker kit a few minutes ago and it looks like the biggest kit I can get is a 4.250.
I am loaded up on cams and that is why I bought all of JayB's adapters so I could change cams easier then the stock setup.
4 to 8 thousand is way more RPM then I would consider in a 428.
I also don't want to drive around with 513 rear gears.
The stall speed I could live with but would prefer a little less.
I still want to run at least a 12-1 compression ratio and just have to figure out a good compromise.
E-85 is not available in my area- have never seen a E-85 pump here.
Looks like I have a little re thinking to do.
Greg
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Just finished running the "real" 427 tunnel port from the "Midnight Express" Maverick which was covered in an article in Hot rod a few decades ago. Car is/was a Detroit street racing icon back in the day, and the new owner is restoring it to function after a 30 year nap in the original owner's garage. Engine is true vintage Ford stuff - standard bore with 14:1 Ford pistons, Ford standard stroke crank, Ford block, Ford tunnel port heads (we freshened them and installed new springs), Ford OEM single 4 bbl intake. And that "D" cam. Only change from 1970 something is the use of a Holley Terminator EFI and matching distributor. Only item that gave us any trouble was the new EFI (defective TPS).
Once we got it running it ended up at +/-513 horsepower at 6200 RPM and stayed above the 500 mark through 7000. Took quite a bit of time because the EFI was kinda unhappy at first, but we fiddled with it until it finally came around. It revved consistently past 7000 but lost valvetrain control before 7500 RPM. Did not really matter because it was beyond its power peak by then - nice smooth curve to around 7200 but rolling off.
(added a bit more data..)
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Not me from FB as I have been bared from them for years. Never talked cars or engines while I was on there.
Looks like I will rethink using the D cam. I am finding out what I didn't know about it.
Looked at a stroker kit a few minutes ago and it looks like the biggest kit I can get is a 4.250.
I am loaded up on cams and that is why I bought all of JayB's adapters so I could change cams easier then the stock setup.
4 to 8 thousand is way more RPM then I would consider in a 428.
I also don't want to drive around with 513 rear gears.
The stall speed I could live with but would prefer a little less.
I still want to run at least a 12-1 compression ratio and just have to figure out a good compromise.
E-85 is not available in my area- have never seen a E-85 pump here.
Looks like I have a little re thinking to do.
Greg
Greg, 12:1 will sound a little better, but if you're looking at having to run water/methanol injection, E85, etc., then the hassle outweighs the benefit by a long shot. E85 helps with compression, but you use a ton of it in comparison to the other types of fuels. It's also very hard on the fuel lines and components.
The camshaft plays a role in what you can run. With the correct setup, you could potentially run 10.5:1 on 91 octane and then you wouldn't have to worry about fuels, injections, etc.
What you're saying about finding out what you didn't know about that C8AX cam, I'm afraid that the other 20-some guys that bought it are in the same boat. It's a sound machine and simply nothing more.
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Barry those heads and intake have to be the limiting factor, I can’t imagine you are saying that’s a 6600 -7000 rpm cam in a 427 are you? My gut says airflow problem in that case
Greg - sorry we came at you both barrels, Turned into a debate in your thread, not at you, there is much better out there IMO, the stroker is good too, 462s are a nice combo. Keep on planning you can build a better monster
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Oh well live and learn.
I would like to have the 63 in the 11's or low 12's. That would put me in the competition around here.
Don't worry about the thread turn as I have a thick skin. I am not interested in sound as much as a little performance.
This will just be a fun car that I don't have to worry about if it is going to get me to work or break down on the way. If it breaks down it will be when I am not going anywhere important.
Had to many of them over the years.
A 462 sounds interesting and I have a lot of time to decide which way to go.
I can all ways slap some nitrous on it if I am not happy with the performance.
I have read the nitrous threads and might consider it after I get my engine build done.
I am all most sure I will have to change cam's if I do that that is not a big deal.
I am not wedded to the EFI, I just had an extra unit I was trying to use up.
Greg
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Greg, power won't be an issue, in fact, a 462 done to match the combo will be real strong and still drivable.
My recommendation, make the power in the heads and intake, supported by the cam and the right compression, certainly simplified, but you should be able to make all the power you need with far less cam.
Lots of combos from many of us in the dyno section, one in particular is the 461 I did with TFS heads. It idles mildly, more mild than I'd guess you want from a racer, 16 inches of vacuum, only 235 degree intake lobe and 568 horsepower. That likely would put you really close to your 1/4 mile goals with good suspension and gearing, but add a little more attitude, and it would get you even more :)
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Oh well live and learn.
I would like to have the 63 in the 11's or low 12's. That would put me in the competition around here.
Don't worry about the thread turn as I have a thick skin. I am not interested in sound as much as a little performance.
This will just be a fun car that I don't have to worry about if it is going to get me to work or break down on the way. If it breaks down it will be when I am not going anywhere important.
Had to many of them over the years.
A 462 sounds interesting and I have a lot of time to decide which way to go.
I can all ways slap some nitrous on it if I am not happy with the performance.
I have read the nitrous threads and might consider it after I get my engine build done.
I am all most sure I will have to change cam's if I do that that is not a big deal.
I am not wedded to the EFI, I just had an extra unit I was trying to use up.
Greg
Which heads do you have? You could make a streetable 580-600 hp with TFS heads on pump gas.
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I have a set of Edelbrock RPm 60065 heads.
Would like to buy a better head in the future. I understand these are a good street head but need some work for a little performance?
Greg
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I have a set of Edelbrock RPm 60065 heads.
Would like to buy a better head in the future. I understand these are a good street head but need some work for a little performance?
Greg
Edelbrock used to be the FE staple, but there are so many choices out there now. They can be worked for more performance.
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Yeah they are an OK head but I would like a better head to start with.
The only issue is cost, nothing is cheap anymore.
Greg
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Yeah they are an OK head but I would like a better head to start with.
The only issue is cost, nothing is cheap anymore.
Greg
Ain't that the truth.
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Just finished running the "real" 427 tunnel port from the "Midnight Express" Maverick which was covered in an article in Hot rod a few decades ago. Car is/was a Detroit street racing icon back in the day, and the new owner is restoring it to function after a 30 year nap in the original owner's garage. Engine is true vintage Ford stuff - standard bore with 14:1 Ford pistons, Ford standard stroke crank, Ford block, Ford tunnel port heads (we freshened them and installed new springs), Ford OEM single 4 bbl intake. And that "D" cam. Only change from 1970 something is the use of a Holley Terminator EFI and matching distributor. Only item that gave us any trouble was the new EFI (defective TPS).
Once we got it running it ended up at +/-513 horsepower at 6600 RPM. Took quite a bit of time because the EFI was kinda unhappy at first, but we fiddled with it until it finally came around. It revved consistently past 7000 but lost valvetrain control before 7500 RPM. Did not really matter because it was beyond its power peak by then - nice smooth curve to around 7200 but rolling off.
Valvetrain issues maybe? Mike Sea on the other forum said that he used to drag race and run that camshaft with 140/330 spring pressure, with hollow stem valves at 7700 rpm. Medium Riser 427 heads.
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Barry those heads and intake have to be the limiting factor, I can’t imagine you are saying that’s a 6600 -7000 rpm cam in a 427 are you? My gut says airflow problem in that case
Just reporting on the results of an actual and recent dyno (yesterday) test. Engine sounded good and the curves looked very normal up to around 7200 - then it got queasy and torque dropped off more abruptly - - but we were beyond power peak by then anyways. Maybe a 2x4 setup would have done better? Some head porting/filling? We will never know. We ran the engine as it was with the parts it had from forever ago - a valve job and some gaskets.
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That still sounds like a good power output considering it was using parts and technology from all most 60 years ago.
Greg
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Valvetrain issues maybe? Mike Sea on the other forum said that he used to drag race and run that camshaft with 140/330 spring pressure, with hollow stem valves at 7700 rpm. Medium Riser 427 heads.
No sign of distress until we were a few hundred RPM beyond power peak. Cant remember (not at the shop) but I believe we had a little less on the seat but more open pressure. I suspect that intake & carb/throttle body size might have held it back a bit. We did make one pull with data to 7500 (means it had to sweep to +/-7700) so seeing those numbers on a tach are certainly possible - but as noted - no real reason to "go there" so we did not on subsequent pulls.
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My un educated guess would be the EFI. All though they have overall better drive ablity then carb's they just don't seem to make the top end power- at least the throttle body's. Direct port is another story from what I have heard.
Greg
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Certainly could be a combination thing - it sure wanted a LOT of timing - picked up a bunch going from 38 to 40, and a bunch more going to 42, we stopped there (something about continuous beating up on 50 year old parts...). Fuel may have played a part too - they provided some really high octane unleaded magical stuff and it wanted to be pretty rich - taking it to the 13.0 range killed power compared to middle twelves
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42 degrees seems like a lot of timing for an FE but I don't know how much timing a race 427 would run normally back in the 60's.
The fuel may have something weird with it. May be it wasn't as super as advertised.
I know when I buy a little of the I think 110 from our local air port it seemed my 71 ran a lot better on it and the times at the strip the few times I took it there was a tenth faster but that could have been the weather.
Don't know what I am talking about but that is why I joined this forum to learn and understand a little better my weak points.
Greg
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I’ve dynod quite a few MR and TP FEs that like 40-42 degrees. Big ole inefficient chambers don’t help much.
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Barry those heads and intake have to be the limiting factor, I can’t imagine you are saying that’s a 6600 -7000 rpm cam in a 427 are you? My gut says airflow problem in that case
Just reporting on the results of an actual and recent dyno (yesterday) test. Engine sounded good and the curves looked very normal up to around 7200 - then it got queasy and torque dropped off more abruptly - - but we were beyond power peak by then anyways. Maybe a 2x4 setup would have done better? Some head porting/filling? We will never know. We ran the engine as it was with the parts it had from forever ago - a valve job and some gaskets.
Not a bad way to spend a Friday :)
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Glad everyone is being productive on these peculiar pandemic days. ;D
Here's a decent video on camshaft selection. The parasitic loss of the camshaft seems to not be fully quantified but the gist seems right. I've always thought of overlap selection being a complement to NA vs boost/NOS.
https://youtu.be/JPAeepqrY-0
Best to understand or measure the dynamic compression. If you do a compression test and are getting psi around 240 you might need E85 or some other fuel beside pump gas. A big cam with late closing will reduce the psi to something reasonable.
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VP Racing Madditve Octanium octane booster added to pump gas is all you need , leave the meth for the meth heads ( pun intended) :)
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I dirve a 66 fairlane on the street 488 ci 12-1 with E-85
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Glad everyone is being productive on these peculiar pandemic days. ;D
Here's a decent video on camshaft selection. The parasitic loss of the camshaft seems to not be fully quantified but the gist seems right. I've always thought of overlap selection being a complement to NA vs boost/NOS.
https://youtu.be/JPAeepqrY-0
Best to understand or measure the dynamic compression. If you do a compression test and are getting psi around 240 you might need E85 or some other fuel beside pump gas. A big cam with late closing will reduce the psi to something reasonable.
You are correct, camshaft selection is something we have to pay real close attention to for street stuff. If the cam is short, it can cause a lot of problems for higher compression engines, especially heavy ones.
However, there's a limit to how far that works. You can't build a 14:1 engine and think you can run it on pump gas if you run a big enough cam. (Tongue in cheek....) :)
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Not a bad way to spend a Friday :)
We had so many old guys watching this thing run that I should have rented a set of bleachers
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Not a bad way to spend a Friday :)
We had so many old guys watching this thing run that I should have rented a set of bleachers
And then you pop on a pump gas hydraulic roller 445 and make more hp lol
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Not a bad way to spend a Friday :)
We had so many old guys watching this thing run that I should have rented a set of bleachers
No doubt, and although with modern heads and strokers changing outlook, 513 HP was a monster back in the days that car was taking paychecks from people.
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However, there's a limit to how far that works. You can't build a 14:1 engine and think you can run it on pump gas if you run a big enough cam. (Tongue in cheek....) :)
Big pet peeve of mine. No matter what a formula from the internet tells you - at maximum efficiency - torque peak - you are going to have a high compression engine with all the fuel demands that that entails.
When that happens at a higher RPM your odds of hearing - and reacting to - the detonation are lower, and you'll kill the engine without ever realizing that it was crying for help.
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You should hear old-school V-twin guys- they'll put one together with a lot of compression, and can't start it by electric starter or leg- and you wouldn't believe how expensive those little "high torque" starters are. Their solution is a big cam, just so it will turn over and start- so that becomes a big factor in cam selection. V-twin guys do things in some strange ways- stroker plates etc
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You should hear old-school V-twin guys- they'll put one together with a lot of compression, and can't start it by electric starter or leg- and you wouldn't believe how expensive those little "high torque" starters are. Their solution is a big cam, just so it will turn over and start- so that becomes a big factor in cam selection. V-twin guys do things in some strange ways- stroker plates etc
I've heard more than one guy (and they've all been Chevy guys) say something to the tune of...…"I built this one engine once and it was so tight we had to drag the car down the road with a tractor to get it start!" They say it like it was a good thing.....like putting an engine together with zero bearing clearance is a good thing??????
People kill me.
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Just finished running the "real" 427 tunnel port from the "Midnight Express" Maverick which was covered in an article in Hot rod a few decades ago. Car is/was a Detroit street racing icon back in the day, and the new owner is restoring it to function after a 30 year nap in the original owner's garage. Engine is true vintage Ford stuff - standard bore with 14:1 Ford pistons, Ford standard stroke crank, Ford block, Ford tunnel port heads (we freshened them and installed new springs), Ford OEM single 4 bbl intake. And that "D" cam. Only change from 1970 something is the use of a Holley Terminator EFI and matching distributor. Only item that gave us any trouble was the new EFI (defective TPS).
Once we got it running it ended up at +/-513 horsepower at 6200 RPM and stayed above the 500 mark through 7000. Took quite a bit of time because the EFI was kinda unhappy at first, but we fiddled with it until it finally came around. It revved consistently past 7000 but lost valvetrain control before 7500 RPM. Did not really matter because it was beyond its power peak by then - nice smooth curve to around 7200 but rolling off.
(added a bit more data..)
Only 513 hp? Would have though much more, like 575 or so.
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You should hear old-school V-twin guys- they'll put one together with a lot of compression, and can't start it by electric starter or leg- and you wouldn't believe how expensive those little "high torque" starters are. Their solution is a big cam, just so it will turn over and start- so that becomes a big factor in cam selection. V-twin guys do things in some strange ways- stroker plates etc
So I guess it is painfully obvious that my limited engine building experience is with Harley V-Twins... 8) Those bikes use compression releases if they planned it out well. Easy to push a button near the spark plug hole twice before you start your iron horse. Wouldn't recommend that on a V8. Ha!
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Just finished running the "real" 427 tunnel port from the "Midnight Express" Maverick which was covered in an article in Hot rod a few decades ago.
Thread hijack in progress... :)
What happened with the sodium filled exhaust valves?
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However, there's a limit to how far that works. You can't build a 14:1 engine and think you can run it on pump gas if you run a big enough cam. (Tongue in cheek....) :)
Big pet peeve of mine. No matter what a formula from the internet tells you - at maximum efficiency - torque peak - you are going to have a high compression engine with all the fuel demands that that entails.
When that happens at a higher RPM your odds of hearing - and reacting to - the detonation are lower, and you'll kill the engine without ever realizing that it was crying for help.
That's a good point. I have not researched much but I don't believe any of these bolt on EFI system use knock sensors that could intervene and pull timing at the first sign of trouble. You are on your own and need to be practical. Pulling timing etc... to compensate ends up just reducing power potential. Measure twice, cut once ......or whatever the gearhead equivalent is.
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Just finished running the "real" 427 tunnel port from the "Midnight Express" Maverick which was covered in an article in Hot rod a few decades ago.
Thread hijack in progress... :)
What happened with the sodium filled exhaust valves?
They were returned to the engine owner when we freshened up the cylinder heads - as souvenirs
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Man, I'm always late to these conversations.
I say put the "D" cam in and try it. What the hell? You said earlier in this post your running Jay's adapter to make maintenance easier so what's the harm? Change the cam out for something "logical" later. You'll always wonder what that 'ol Ford cam would do if you don't try it.
Interesting that you said you wouldn't mind driving with a 4500 converter...then said you don't want to drive with 5.14 gears. I'd probably run 4.56's with a 28" tall tire.
I did run a Snow water/meth on my blown Mustang. It ran fine with the Snow set-up as it's very adjustable, and the boost juice is cheap from Summit or Jegs. The reason that 50/50 water to meth is suggested by the manufacturer is that at 50/50 the mixture is not considered flammable. Many tuners running very high boost levels are running 70 to 100% in their cars but be warned...methanol burns clear and you can be VERY on fire before you realize it.
Run the big cam and learn something. Then you can give advise based on fact.
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100% agreement with Tommy-T
Put the old school cam in it and try it.
It ran very well in the 60's and 70's. If you don't like it, change it after.
Cam changes are a learning experience.
I was also told a long time ago by the "professionals" not to run a stock class cheater cam on the street.
Did it, and had zero regrets,
Also told "don't run 0.800" lift on the street" and "you can't run 5500 stall on the street"
To hell with the experts - I did both and was very pleased with the results.
Cheers
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Hey I run old junk too when it's right, and generally things are "right enough". However there are things he'd need to do to run it if he wants to, the question is, can the components do it? and what would be the benefit? I think in this case the answer is no and none.
EFI will not like it unless he runs open loop, that's a fact, you might be able to say good enough, but I just drove a stranded "800 HP" blown aluminator home because the A/F was so inconsistent after it's special build that it saturated and now burned out a O2 sensor. This car was supposed to be a monster and has never been. The car ran goofy before he called me, and he called because it's now almost undrivable. This old school Ford cam is in the hundreds for overlap, it's not going to make sense to the ECM, I run a 74 degree overlap with EFI and I consider myself on the edge for closed loop after careful tuning. Now, if he is able and willing to change to full open loop, rock on, but that requires a system and clever tuning to get them driving nice...if he is willing to stick a 4781 on there and a big old accel pump and some gear, I'd say rock on too
The other thing is where will the power be made, when that cam starts working, the heads and intake will be done. It's just too much, there is no secret sauce to that cam, it's just big and gnarly, jam it with spring and rev those old 427s to the moon, better build the 428 to take rpm.
That being said, I do agree with Tommy completely on one thing, generally "bolt it together and learn for yourself" is a great technique....but man it would be much easier to make 600 HP the first time with better parts choices
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100% agreement with Tommy-T
Put the old school cam in it and try it.
It ran very well in the 60's and 70's. If you don't like it, change it after.
Cam changes are a learning experience.
I was also told a long time ago by the "professionals" not to run a stock class cheater cam on the street.
Did it, and had zero regrets,
Also told "don't run 0.800" lift on the street" and "you can't run 5500 stall on the street"
To hell with the experts - I did both and was very pleased with the results.
Cheers
I would run an .800" lift cam on the street. I would also run a torque converter with a 5500 rpm stall on the street, if that's what the application needed.
The thing about engine stuff is that it all operates on a basis of relativity. One combination is always going to be better or worse relative to another.
An engine with a 273° @ .050" duration cam, 5500 rpm converter, big lobe lift, maybe a cheater cam, etc., will probably run ok and make enough horsepower to entertain guys with not much experience. You can throw a bunch of parts together in an FE and make 300-350 hp, which is enough to give you a happy feeling when you press the gas. If the cam has enough overlap, it will sound extremely healthy, and then you have the perfect recipe for a Dairy Queener.
When you don't have the luxury of trying various combinations, then you really don't know what's out there. You can be pleased with the results, but you would be much, much, much, more pleased with another combination.
If the OP throws that C8AX cam in a 428 with box Edelbrock heads, it will sound all kinds of mean, but that's about it.
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Agree with most of what you are saying Brent.
The OP did not say exactly what his exact combination would be.
I had already stated that a large old school cam would require a very high stall converter - as it would not have any low speed
manners. It also requires high compression as well.
Sure a new modern cam would make more sense - however, he has the cam. if he uses it with 12:1 + CR and a 5000 stall converter
it will certainly make well over 450HP. (unless something is really buggered up in the build)
I have been around long enough to have raced 427 L88 powered cars, 454 LS6 and LS7's back in the 80's.
By todays standards all those examples had camshafts way too big and too much overlap. But they were fun and did run into the low 12s and high 11's on crappy tires and greasy tracks.
Yes there are better options these days - but some of these old parts went very fast for what they were.
These days out on the streets there are 1500+ HP dual turbo street monsters - 8 second cars. When I was younger anything with 400+ HP was reasonably fast.
In the "old" days most of us enthusiasts built our own cars - everything - differentials, transmissions, engines.... We didn't have the $$$$ to have someone else build it for us. What fun would that be? Pay someone to build the car? Might as well but a new GT500. Whoopeee
I never wanted to be a "gold chainer".
Call my junk a DQ special if you want. Still will run 10's at 4400 lbs (and I assembled every bolt) How fast is yours?
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Agree with most of what you are saying Brent.
The OP did not say exactly what his exact combination would be.
I had already stated that a large old school cam would require a very high stall converter - as it would not have any low speed
manners. It also requires high compression as well.
Sure a new modern cam would make more sense - however, he has the cam. if he uses it with 12:1 + CR and a 5000 stall converter
it will certainly make well over 450HP. (unless something is really buggered up in the build)
I have been around long enough to have raced 427 L88 powered cars, 454 LS6 and LS7's back in the 80's.
By todays standards all those examples had camshafts way too big and too much overlap. But they were fun and did run into the low 12s and high 11's on crappy tires and greasy tracks.
Yes there are better options these days - but some of these old parts went very fast for what they were.
These days out on the streets there are 1500+ HP dual turbo street monsters - 8 second cars. When I was younger anything with 400+ HP was reasonably fast.
In the "old" days most of us enthusiasts built our own cars - everything - differentials, transmissions, engines.... We didn't have the $$$$ to have someone else build it for us. What fun would that be? Pay someone to build the car? Might as well but a new GT500. Whoopeee
I never wanted to be a "gold chainer".
Call my junk a DQ special if you want. Still will run 10's at 4400 lbs (and I assembled every bolt) How fast is yours?
To be honest, Perry, mine *might* run 17's on a good day. I only have my daily driver pickup right now. A 7 year old daughter and a backlog of engine builds takes my time from me. However, I've got customers who run mid 9's if that's any consolation. None of them have cams as big as that C8AX cam LOL
I agree that there's a lot of fun in doing things yourself. However, sometimes you need a little help from your fellow car buddies. Greg didn't know that the cam was as high-strung as it is, because the guy selling them on the other forum didn't really explain it. He just listed it as a "restoration replacement" or a F.A.S.T replacement camshaft.
And now I understand where some of your logic has come from...….you were a Chevy racer.....LOL
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Greg run the cam, you'll love it. I ran a an Old Greg Foreman-Gus Davis Grind .612" lift, Dur 312*-258@.050 back in the 80's in a 390 with 428 SCJ heads and 11 to 1 and I loved it, it had a 3,000 stall and 4:57's. And I heard the same thing everyone is saying now, it's too big you would be better off with a smaller cam and so on.
Mine is a hobby car to play around with, as yours seems to be, I am working to get mine back together slowly, I also picked up one of these cams, and it's just a hair larger than what I was going to run, and thought what the hell old school. My thinking, I like the big cams cause they kill bottom end, then I do the opposite than go a larger motor with more torque. I am sticking with the 3,000 stall and going 3:50's for the freeway. And it's said as a motor gets larger a cam gets smaller.
Here's the cam card, And It I think the .614" lift numbers are wrong, they should be .600" lift.
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If you could make more horsepower with a smaller camshaft, would you switch?
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If I could get 100 or more horses maybe, but not for 10 to 20 extra horses. But then I'd have to dump my Sidewinder for an open plenum Victor or compatible manifold or even a 2x4 setup.
I'll still hit 600 hp with the D cam, with my current combination.
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We went to the 'D' cam when we put the TP in the Thunderbolt back in '68. Quite rowdy. It's NOT anything I'd try to use for anything more complex than driving around the block (once). Or on a quarter mile.
KS
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For some reason I'm having trouble accessing page 4 of this thread.
Anyway, I would think it would be hard to hit 600 hp with any combination and that camshaft and boosting another 100 hp with a different cam seems certainly likely.
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TL - DR this thread but from reading your first post and having a performance car used for same - strip and cruize - and with your build specs, I say pony up for race fuel and get over it. All that $$$$ in the motor and you want to cheese out with crappy pump fuel? Especially now that Russia and Saudi are killing the price and the mix in the pumps is going to get even weaker as people try to stretch profits? No, don't even. Pay the $9.50 a gallon and deal with it. Locally, if I buy Sunoco 110 by the 54 gallon drum it runs about $7.80/gallon. You can cut it 50% for street cruising, then run full strength at the track. Keeps well in the drum, way-way better than pump gas. I run the same ET/MPH on year old properly stored 110. Or totally bite the bullet and convert the straight methanol, any pay maybe $180/drum. More maintenance and care required, no problems with the compression.
If not, then get with the experts here and back the build down. Lots of people go real fast and aren't running 12:1.
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This has to be the longest thread ever that doesn't even begin to address the original question..lol
That cam (part of the Ford 7000 rpm "kit") would work on the street, with the right combination. But that is not what the OP has. It would need a light car with big gears. Like really big gears. That means no highway/interstate driving unless you have an overdrive or a death wish for the engine. Having said that, I don't see why anyone would want to use that cam when there are much better choices these days. Those cams had huge durations and lazy lobes because spring technology sucked back then. It was the only way they could get the RPM's they needed. I'd leave that cam for guys wanting "correct" restorations on race cars or trailer queens.
And yes, I can not get page 4 to come up either. Odd, but it's not the first time this has happened here recently. I think the forum has the Covid-19. ;D ;D
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Everybody convinced me not to run this cam and I will use one of the others I have on the shelf or order a new grind.
As far as the original question I would still like to know if anyone has used the Snow unit with a high compression engine to lower detonation in a 12 to 1 or higher engine?
I will keep this cam and build a period correct engine later in the future. I do have a 406 and another 428 and Dad's old 427 that I could use.
I have been saving the 427 for 35 years to put in a car that I won't sell. Seems that whenever I start on a car someone will just offer me to much money and it will be gone.
I would like to find a 66 or 67 Fairlane to build a clone thunderbolt- strip car only.
Been looking for a couple of years but haven't been able to find one without the cowls rusted out and I don't want to repair another one.
Greg
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Greg I have never used the Snow unit but have many customers using this VP Racing Madditive Octanium and it works , no need for race gas or anything else , my brother has been using it in his race car over 5 years now 12.5 347 Maverick running 6.70's in the 1/8th , started out mixing 102 octane now has it down to 96 octane no hint of detonation and is just a super product that cost around 19.00 a can at O"Reilly's , most of my customers use about a half can per fill up and it keeps the carburetor and fuel system clean too
https://vpracingfuels.com/product/octanium/?c=207
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Thanks for the link.
Sounds like what I am looking for. I was just worried about running my engine safely.
Would hate to blow it up and have to redo it.
As much as I enjoy working on engines I really don't like to redo them.
I book marked the page and will give it a try.
Greg
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O/T - Whats up with Page 4 on this thread? it acts like its not there.
Edit - works with Firefox, so I blame Google/Chrome. Weird
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I got corvid 19 and the government put it off limit's.
Greg
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O/T - Whats up with Page 4 on this thread? it acts like its not there.
Edit - works with Firefox, so I blame Google/Chrome. Weird
I use Firefox at home and at work and it won't come up for me. This is the 2nd thread that it's happened on, although I can't remember which page it happened on before.
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Page 4 of this thread is blank for me too. I’m using my iPhone.
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Page 4 is gone because I told Greg to put the cam in and see what happens.
WTF, put it in and if you don't like it, pull it out. What's the harm. It won't break anything if you check clearances. You were gonna do that, wernt ya?
Geeze!
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Only a matter of time before Greg gets talked into a 500inch stroker with a 225@.050" hydraulic roller. Idling at 600rpm, making 29 inches of vacuum, practically pulling the fuel into a black hole. At least it'll pull stumps up from China...
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I can only see page 4 if I view as a guest. No one is missing too much. lol
Any of my Android devices nor my PC (Chrome) can access. Got worried that folks didn't like the video I posted.
Honestly I had seen the other thread on the "D" cam but didn't realize it was the same part until I read more of the chatter. I am a "Newbie" after all. ;)
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I can only see page 4 if I view as a guest. No one is missing too much. ...
Incognito window works. If it wasn't for Incognito, it would be impossible to read news links. And, you're right; not missing anything.
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Page 4 is gone because I told Greg to put the cam in and see what happens.
WTF, put it in and if you don't like it, pull it out. What's the harm. It won't break anything if you check clearances. You were gonna do that, wernt ya?
Geeze!
I agree put it in and run it, but would suggest going the expense of tool steel lifters, if you decide you don't like the cam and decide to change it, you can reuse the lifters on the new cam, saving the expense of new lifters.
I like the Trend Tool Steel lifters and are what I will be running on mine.
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Thanks for the tip.
I called them last night but they were closed so will call again today.
After thinking about this cam and being the whishy-washie type of guy I am I might just run it.
However I will make some changes.
1 Different heads,
2 I have a dominator carb I can rebuild.
3 I have the 3 pedal setup so I could put in a TKO 600 5 speed. I will start looking for a good used one.
4 Go with 456 rear gears.
5 A stock 63 weighs 3870- mine has been a race car since new, will have to weigh it. It is stripped down now, no heater,radio sound deaden er etc.
I haven't started on the car yet so have some time to decide what I want to do, the engine will go to the machine shop next month so I can start assembling it.
I was hoping jaybS friend in Michigan would have his 4 bolt main conversion ready before I sent the block for machining but it doesn't look like it is going to happen.
I have 4 new cams in the parts room, with Jaybs adapters I can change one out in a couple of hours so if it doesn't work out I can all ways change it out.
If I don't like any of them I can all ways go the Jay Leno route and put in a steam engine.LOL
Greg