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FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: blykins on March 10, 2020, 11:30:38 AM

Title: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 10, 2020, 11:30:38 AM
Got pushrods on the way, but should have this one buttoned up this week, hopefully to dyno next week.

Rules are the usual.....closest guess to corrected horsepower without going over wins some goodies.

*4.090" finished bore size, 4.250" stroke
*Scat 9000 series 4.250" crankshaft
*Scat 6.700" I-beam connecting rods
*Mahle pistons, 18cc dish, 1mm/1mm/2mm ring pack, 10.3:1 compression ratio
*Trick Flow cylinder heads, no tampering, dual valve springs, 150/400 spring pressure
*Performer RPM intake with some cartridge roll in the port openings, divider cut down
*Melling HV oil pump
*Canton 15-850 pan, deep front sump with oil control
*MSD distributor
*Powerbond balancer
*Harland Sharp shafts with Precision Oil Pumps end stands, center stands, and spacers
*Lykins Motorsports non-adjustable roller rocker arms
*Trend 5/16" .105" pushrods
*One of my custom hydraulic rollers, 231/239 @ .050", 114 LSA, 105 ICL, .630" lift
*Morel standard travel hydraulic roller lifters
*Quick Fuel HR-780 carburetor
*Tuff Stuff aluminum water pump

No front end dress on this one, so we will not be turning the water pump or any accessories on the dyno. 

Happy guessing!
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: HarleyJack17 on March 10, 2020, 12:03:26 PM
Curious to see this one! Think I may be a little conservative. My # is corrected HP-Edited for later post inquiring.

537 HP

Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: Joe-JDC on March 10, 2020, 12:17:04 PM
639 hp     Joe-JDC
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 10, 2020, 12:25:57 PM
639 hp     Joe-JDC

Joe, I think you fat-fingered a number there. 
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: Joe-JDC on March 10, 2020, 12:32:55 PM
447 cubic inches x 1.43 hp/ci for that compression ratio is not out of reason, and if the heads flow 310 cfm at .630" lift, that is in the ball park for horsepower potential.  The ring pack is optimal, and roller lifters, etc., all should be low resistance.  The only issue is the smallish carb and header choice for the pull.  I am not a fan of cutting the divider down, and a 2" super sucker would be standing by, so I may be a little optimistic, but not by much.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 10, 2020, 12:39:17 PM
447 cubic inches x 1.43 hp/ci for that compression ratio is not out of reason, and if the heads flow 310 cfm at .630" lift, that is in the ball park for horsepower potential.  The ring pack is optimal, and roller lifters, etc., all should be low resistance.  The only issue is the smallish carb and header choice for the pull.  I am not a fan of cutting the divider down, and a 2" super sucker would be standing by, so I may be a little optimistic, but not by much.  Joe-JDC

The heads actually go about 330 at that lift.  However, FE's typically don't go 1.43 hp/ci in street form.  Not on this dyno anyway. 

Smallish cam because the guy needed lots of vacuum.  Pretty mild build all around.   I think you're gonna be off by about 100 hp. 

Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 1968galaxie on March 10, 2020, 12:57:30 PM
Hello Brent,

Any particular reason for the 123 degree ECL?
That very very early exhaust opening with that ECL will result in torque loss.
I guess that might be the trade off for high vacuum requirement the customer has?

Anyhow - I love these builds.
Is the HP guess un corrected? Or corrected?
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: shady on March 10, 2020, 01:17:30 PM
508
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 10, 2020, 01:32:45 PM
That very very early exhaust opening with that ECL will result in torque loss.

Eh.....I wouldn't put a bet on that one. 

I don't know how you would even make any kind of correlation there without knowing the advertised durations.   I could put a more aggressive lobe on the exhaust side and delay the exhaust valve opening.   I give you props on being able to calculate the ECL by using the ICL and the LSA, but it's really meaningless.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: TomP on March 10, 2020, 01:39:38 PM
If they are all over will I win guessing 1HP?

If not I guess 499.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: T U Bar on March 10, 2020, 02:09:29 PM
522
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: My427stang on March 10, 2020, 02:10:39 PM
548 HP, and I will add an additional guess, 554 for torque

Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: Gaugster on March 10, 2020, 03:11:18 PM
533HP
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 475fetoploader on March 10, 2020, 03:51:50 PM
What is 561 horsepower Alex
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: wowens on March 10, 2020, 04:32:52 PM
558
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 64PI on March 10, 2020, 04:52:58 PM
541hp...
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 70tp on March 10, 2020, 05:48:23 PM
505
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: My427stang on March 10, 2020, 05:50:09 PM
Hello Brent,

Any particular reason for the 123 degree ECL?
That very very early exhaust opening with that ECL will result in torque loss.
I guess that might be the trade off for high vacuum requirement the customer has?

Anyhow - I love these builds.
Is the HP guess un corrected? Or corrected?

Not Brent, but I am not sure the ECL has the effect you think it does.  Saying the early exhaust opening kills torque, can be correct in an academic argument, but a quick peruse of the dyno forum will show many of Brent's (and mine for that matter)  That 445 should be a monster

I would assume Brent has a vacuum and/or idle requirement, that's why I do it when I have to

Some examples of mine, all in the dyno forum

461 all iron, CJ carbed  - LSA 114 - 237/237 - 106 ICL - 536 ft lbs, 520 HP (15 inches of vac)
461 TFS head PI  carbed - LSA 114 - 235/237 - 106 ICL - - 577 ft lbs, 568 HP (16 inches of idle vac)
461 Victor single plane Victor EFI truck engine, on carb - LSA 112, 230/236 - 106 ICL - only 9.75:1 - 554 ft lbs, 490 HP (at 5000) Didn't take vac readings

I agree in general you don't want to waste the power stroke with too early of a exhaust opening, but you are also gaining on the other end with better cylinder fill and little chamber dilution and good vacuum.   This 445 should be a nice mellow monster 
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: MeanGene on March 10, 2020, 05:52:14 PM
534
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: machoneman on March 10, 2020, 07:47:43 PM
565 hp, 529 trq, corrected.

I wasn't going to guess but.........
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: Stangman on March 10, 2020, 07:57:24 PM
559 hp ans 536 Ft lb torque
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: mike7570 on March 10, 2020, 08:10:55 PM
519
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: turbohunter on March 10, 2020, 08:39:03 PM
Mike got mine.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 338Raptor on March 10, 2020, 09:06:24 PM
543hp
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: KMcCullah on March 10, 2020, 09:48:34 PM
537.5HP. This one's gonna breathe pretty good. Will you have time to try a bigger carb on the dyno? Just for grins. 780 seems smallish for the combo.

Edit: I missed HarleyJack's 537 guess. My bad.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 11, 2020, 04:57:15 AM
537HP. This one's gonna breathe pretty good. Will you have time to try a bigger carb on the dyno? Just for grins. 780 seems smallish for the combo.

The Quick Fuels come in a little larger than spec, but I'll probably have time to try something else.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: Twinibeam66 on March 11, 2020, 09:41:43 AM
528 HP !!!
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 1968galaxie on March 11, 2020, 10:48:22 AM
549 hp is my guess
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: FirstEliminator on March 11, 2020, 01:32:52 PM
477
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: cjshaker on March 11, 2020, 02:16:43 PM
490
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: hhiibel on March 11, 2020, 04:19:11 PM
554hp
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 1964Fastback on March 11, 2020, 05:24:23 PM
500

Pat
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 6667fan on March 12, 2020, 07:12:01 AM
I wanted 537 but there are two guesses at that number already. So I will go 538.

Didn't you use to run these contests with uncorrected numbers being the criteria? I'm in favor of that myself.

Thanks for keeping our minds engaged.

JB
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 12, 2020, 09:12:24 AM
I switch it up to make things interesting.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 69Shakar on March 12, 2020, 11:44:08 PM
581
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: countrysquire on March 13, 2020, 07:57:46 AM
Interesting, pretty similar build to what you provided me with Brent, except for the cam specs.

My SWAG is 532.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: Sand hauler on March 13, 2020, 12:47:52 PM
565 hp
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 64gal482 on March 15, 2020, 09:34:44 AM
Also similar build as my 445 you specked a cam for, going to GUESS 521 HP and 545 TQ.

Jose
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: Stangman on March 15, 2020, 03:34:29 PM
When is she going on Dyno Brent.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 15, 2020, 03:52:01 PM
This coming Friday if the weather cooperates. 
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 70bosscat on March 15, 2020, 04:29:13 PM
I'm in for 555. Hammer down!
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 20, 2020, 12:26:15 PM
548 hp at 5500, 580 torque....
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: cjshaker on March 20, 2020, 02:15:55 PM
Almost 1.4 hp per cube. I wasn't expecting that. Those heads are better than I thought. Nice job, Brent!
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 1968galaxie on March 20, 2020, 02:19:48 PM
My 549 HP guestimate was close!
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 20, 2020, 02:20:02 PM
Almost 1.4 hp per cube. I wasn't expecting that. Those heads are better than I thought. Nice job, Brent!

Doug, hp/ci is 1.23.  But they are good heads!
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 20, 2020, 02:20:37 PM
My 549 HP guestimate was close!

Yep, just one over!
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: 1968galaxie on March 20, 2020, 02:23:38 PM
The last contest I was one HP over as well - lol.
Almost as if it was on purpose.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 20, 2020, 02:30:08 PM
It was 547.67 hp, which rounds up to 548.  Not on purpose, but I'll send you some decals if it makes you feel better.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: wowens on March 20, 2020, 02:39:16 PM
Missed by 10, had 558
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: turbohunter on March 20, 2020, 04:07:24 PM
Impressive
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 20, 2020, 04:16:01 PM
It was a good day.  Didn't get to try a bigger carburetor that someone wanted me to try, but we tried a lot of other things.  A 1" Super Sucker didn't add one single number to the peak hp or torque, but it added 10 average hp and about 10 average torque. 

Going from 32° timing to 30° dropped about 20 hp.  Going from 32° to 34° added a few ponies over the 32°. 

Peak hp was at 5500, but only dropped 5 hp at 6000.

Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: FElony on March 20, 2020, 07:52:01 PM
I guessed 777 hp. Good thing I didn't type that out loud, 'cuz I sure would feel like a dummy if anyone knew.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: TomP on March 20, 2020, 11:13:30 PM
777 would have been bang on if the air way better.... like a cloud of nitrous.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: FElony on March 20, 2020, 11:58:35 PM
777 would have been bang on if the air way better.... like a cloud of nitrous.

I woulda done 666, but I've already been kicked out of hell twice. I guess The Devil was afraid for his job.
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: My427stang on March 21, 2020, 07:24:05 AM
Well done!  I nailed the HP but didn't expect the big torque numbers.  That thing should be a monster and likely has great manners and a ton of vacuum. 
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: KMcCullah on March 21, 2020, 12:41:12 PM
548 hp at 5500, 580 torque....

Wow! Killer torque. Was this with the 780 carb? Awesome build!
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: cjshaker on March 21, 2020, 02:03:24 PM
Almost 1.4 hp per cube. I wasn't expecting that. Those heads are better than I thought. Nice job, Brent!

Doug, hp/ci is 1.23.  But they are good heads!

My bad, I forgot about the stroker crank and based it on a 396 ci. An extra 40 cubes certainly will make a difference..lol
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 22, 2020, 05:23:06 AM
548 hp at 5500, 580 torque....

Wow! Killer torque. Was this with the 780 carb? Awesome build!

Yes sir, a Quick Fuel HR-780. 

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49680782476_e6edb0a68c_c.jpg)

Here's the dyno sheet.  A little bit of an A/F ratio imbalance from side to side.  Could have been the way I shaped the divider, not sure, but a Super Sucker didn't straighten it out and neither did a large air cleaner.  Regardless, it's showing lean because we were tuning for 4500' altitude on the last several pulls since this engine is going to Wyoming.  Makes it a little trickier to manage time efficiently, because we wanted to make sure that it would be close enough on A/F so that he wouldn't have to do a lot of tuning once he got it in the car.  We can even "drive" the dyno to simulate the A/F ratio at cruising rpm, and spent time tuning for that scenario as well. 

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49681072982_9e646b5d2e_c.jpg)

The torque surprised me as well.  Dynos have a range of repeatability but all torque numbers after the majority of tuning was completed were in the 570-580 range. 

One thing to note:  we watch the oil temperatures throughout a pull, as it can be an indicator of issues.  We typically see 2-3° bumps in oil temp throughout a full pull.   There's a trend with the Canton and Milodon pans, in that they are so deep that the oil temperature will start going down through the pull.  The dyno cell has airflow in it and those deep pans act as a radiator.  Pretty neat.

All-in-all, I was very pleased with the engine and I'm a big fan of these cylinder heads.  Making almost 550 hp with a 5500 rpm peak, holding to 6000 with a relatively small camshaft (231° @ .050" intake lobe) says a lot for cylinder head performance. 
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: Joe-JDC on March 22, 2020, 09:44:13 AM
Drop that oil pressure down to 50-55 psi, and pick up several horsepower.  Looks like a solid build.  Joe-JDC
Title: Re: Time for another guess the horsepower game....
Post by: blykins on March 22, 2020, 10:14:05 AM
Drop that oil pressure down to 50-55 psi, and pick up several horsepower.  Looks like a solid build.  Joe-JDC

I use a lot of standard volume pumps that end up at around 60-65 psi at full song. I typically don’t do it on hydraulic roller builds that can go over 6000 rpm on a spirited jaunt. 

On a long run, the oil temp would go up some from where it ran here, which would cause the pressure to go down a little....prob 10-12 psi.