FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Rory428 on February 15, 2020, 01:32:11 AM
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Anybody know when Ford started putting the vertical ribs on the side of FE blocks? I know the original 360 that I pulled out of my 74 F350 had them, as does the 74 428 CJ "service" short block that I have had for over 30 years. But the service 427 side oiler hydraulic lifter block from my Fairmont does not have these ribs. The 427 block casting date is 0A17, so I am guessing the ribs started to appear sometime between early 1970 and 1974, but just curious if somebody could narrow the time period a little.
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All of the blocks I have seen with ribs were late service replacement blocks. 69-70 on.
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The ribs being a “service block” only applies to 428’s & 427’s, since they were no longer being installed in new vehicles by the time the ribs started showing up. Like Rory said, the ribs were on regular Dearborn Iron Foundry ( DIF ) production 360’s & 390’s, along with all the FT engines in production, through the end of DIF FE block production. By the 1971 calendar year for sure the ribs were showing up.
I’ve been logging FE date codes for a little while now trying to get a better idea when some of this stuff started, watching Facebook, eBay, Craigslist, etc. as I see dates pictured. But it’s a small sample, and I don’t have anything definitive yet. Unfortunately most people don’t detail all the characteristics of their parts as thoroughly as I’d like lol. People generally don’t pay attention to where their block was cast either. It would be nice if Ford documentation surfaced, but no telling if it even exists still. I’m guessing the dates the ribs started on 427 blocks could be different than the other FE engines, since they used a unique casting pattern on at least the drivers side & rear, so they may not have been phased in at the same time. And no telling if all the molds changed at the same time, or were phased in as old ones were replaced, or on a timetable, etc.
I’m also interested on when the Cleveland Foundry ( CF ) phased out casting FE blocks, but most don’t even realize FE parts were made there.
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I think Ford just did stuff when they wanted to do it, with no rhyme or reason.
I'm working on a 445 right now that uses a 390 block.
That 390 block has a "C" scratch, as well as an "I" scratch beside it. It has crow's feet mains. It has a pickup mount hole near the #3 main. It has a 3/8" pipe plug right above the pan rail on the driver's side. It has the oversized distributor shaft hole. It also has "66-427" cast on the rear of the block, and also has the bosses for the sideoiler main galley plug and relief valve plug.
Goofiest thing I've ever seen.
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I think Ford just did stuff when they wanted to do it, with no rhyme or reason.
I'm working on a 445 right now that uses a 390 block.
That 390 block has a "C" scratch, as well as an "I" scratch beside it. It has crow's feet mains. It has a pickup mount hole near the #3 main. It has a 3/8" pipe plug right above the pan rail on the driver's side. It has the oversized distributor shaft hole. It also has "66-427" cast on the rear of the block, and also has the bosses for the sideoiler main galley plug and relief valve plug.
Goofiest thing I've ever seen.
Clearly the extremely rare and semi-desirable 361 Cobra Jet wood chipper....impressive piece in it's day
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I think Ford just did stuff when they wanted to do it, with no rhyme or reason.
I'm working on a 445 right now that uses a 390 block.
That 390 block has a "C" scratch, as well as an "I" scratch beside it. It has crow's feet mains. It has a pickup mount hole near the #3 main. It has a 3/8" pipe plug right above the pan rail on the driver's side. It has the oversized distributor shaft hole. It also has "66-427" cast on the rear of the block, and also has the bosses for the sideoiler main galley plug and relief valve plug.
Goofiest thing I've ever seen.
No, there’s a pattern to this stuff, and there was likely a reason, although they were casting a ton of these a day, it’s just the documented reasons that have been lost to time.
Quite a few people with the “CI” scratch 361/391 FT blocks like that one, with those same characteristics. There’d probably be a bunch more saved if more people had known what to look for & where years ago, it’s just easier to share the info now.
I’d be willing to bet it’s a “DIF” cast block.
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I have a ribbed 390 D4 that came out of a '74 4wd pickup. It is not a mirror block.
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I have a ribbed 390 D4 that came out of a '74 4wd pickup. It is not a mirror block.
The “Mirror” blocks were cast at the Michigan Casting Center (MCC). All the “Ribbed” blocks I’ve seen were cast at the Dearborn Iron Foundry (DIF). There was overlap in the time both types of FE blocks were cast and used. Do you have any pictures? Did you notice the casting plant logo?
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I think Ford just did stuff when they wanted to do it, with no rhyme or reason.
I'm working on a 445 right now that uses a 390 block.
That 390 block has a "C" scratch, as well as an "I" scratch beside it. It has crow's feet mains. It has a pickup mount hole near the #3 main. It has a 3/8" pipe plug right above the pan rail on the driver's side. It has the oversized distributor shaft hole. It also has "66-427" cast on the rear of the block, and also has the bosses for the sideoiler main galley plug and relief valve plug.
Goofiest thing I've ever seen.
What's the date code on this unicorn? Sounds like an industrial or heavy truck block.
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If I remember correctly, Dave Shoe had some Ford internal documentation as to exactly when the ribs started. I don't recall the details of it though. Over the years of the old forum, Dave had accumulated several pieces of internal documents on production changes, mold changes, machining and production updates and the dates implemented. I think Dave is off chasing Martians now though, so much of that is probably lost.
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All the external ribbed blocks I have came from 71 to 76 trucks. Mostly 360 and a couple 390 blocks. Some have the re reinforced mains and some do not. A few are 105 blocks, D3te and D4te.
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I have a ribbed 390 D4 that came out of a '74 4wd pickup. It is not a mirror block.
The “Mirror” blocks were cast at the Michigan Casting Center (MCC). All the “Ribbed” blocks I’ve seen were cast at the Dearborn Iron Foundry (DIF). There was overlap in the time both types of FE blocks were cast and used. Do you have any pictures? Did you notice the casting plant logo?
It's buried in the corner of my garage and hard to get at right now, but I'll try and get a look at it when it warms up a little.
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I have an October ‘71 block at builders now. I can’t recall if it is ribbed. Will try to find out this week.
My June ‘72 P block is ribbed.
JB
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Even 427 service blocks were ribbed. What I remember when this discussion years ago from a DIF foundry worker is that the ribs were repairs/reinforcements for original molds. They are definitely not limited to FT/ Truck blocks.
-Keith
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Even 427 service blocks were ribbed. What I remember when this discussion years ago from a DIF foundry worker is that the ribs were repairs/reinforcements for original molds. They are definitely not limited to FT/ Truck blocks.
-Keith
Like I said above, the ribs are just a characteristic of the period of time they were cast during, and the particular foundry. 427 service blocks are ribbed because 427’s were no longer being put in production vehicles in 1971 when the ribs started, and they were cast at the DIF Foundry. By 1971 the only FE/FT blocks being used in production vehicles were in pickups & large trucks.
Dennis Kolodziej who is a longtime Ford employee, and FE enthusiast, has talked to some of the original engineers & plant workers from that time and they have emphatically stated the ribs have nothing to do with repairs/reinforcements to the molds. That appears to be someone’s uninformed guess, reported years ago in a magazine or book, and it keeps circulating.
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I am able to confirm my October ‘71 427 is ribbed. So what is the earliest ribbed one known to be date wise?
JB
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I am able to confirm my October ‘71 427 is ribbed. So what is the earliest ribbed one known to be date wise?
JB
I have a Sept 24th 1971 date logged for a ribbed 427, but like I said, I only have a very small sample so far so I wouldn’t assume yet whether that is early. Thanks for adding to it. Does yours have the “DIF” logo? Sideoiler?
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It is a side oiler but I’m not near it to check for the DIF. A vocational school was given the block way back in the 70’s. I don’t know if it came from the Motor Co. or an area dealer. The students got to take it apart and put it back together but never fired it. Then it went to a machine shop where it sat for years. Another FE’er bought it, never built it and then put it on Craigslist where I bought it.
JB
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Yikes!
Everyone has such thin skin. Really? Grow a set!
Anyhow, let's get back to Ford information.
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On the disc brake valves. I think the residual valve is 65 to 67. I don't think they used after 67 , it in later years the residual valve is built into the proportioning valve. The shuttle is supposed to work in theory but in practice if you lose fluid at one line the pedal goes to the floor. Yes, I have had it happen more than once. I'm back to using single master cylinders and either no or an adjustable prop valve on anything.
I am going to pick up yet another 360 tomorrow, it's supposed to be from a 70 F100 4x4 so i'll check for the ribs. The caked on goo is thick enough I can't tell.
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Tom- It was only used 67-70. They moved it from the rear left side pan of the vehicle to the distribution block in 1968. See the illustrations below for reference.
-Keith
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Pete: Wait a minute. Who elected you leader of this outfit?
Everett: Well, Pete, I figured it should be the one with the capacity for abstract thought. But if that ain't the consensus view, then hell, let's put it to a vote.
Pete: Suits me. I'm voting for yours truly.
Everett: Well, I'm voting for yours truly, too.
[Everett and Pete look at Delmar for the deciding vote]
Delmar: Okay... I'm with you fellas.
(http://)
It was 12°F out today but Spring will be here soon enough. Just trying to lighten the mood.
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I am going to pick up yet another 360 tomorrow, it's supposed to be from a 70 F100 4x4 so i'll check for the ribs. The caked on goo is thick enough I can't tell.
Excellent, ‘70 & ‘71 blocks are what we need some samples of to inspect. I have a ‘70 model year 390 block I need to double check, soon as it warms up a bit.
I’m also curious how long the Cleveland Foundry ( CF ) FE blocks were used. Tom, if you get a chance try to note if the block has the DIF or CF mark too.
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I hate deleting posts. Let's keep it civil please, gentlemen...
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I have a May 1970 428 block - No ribs
JWR
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I have a D4TE service block mirror 105 with no ribs too that is a 428 block.
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Pete: Wait a minute. Who elected you leader of this outfit?
Everett: Well, Pete, I figured it should be the one with the capacity for abstract thought. But if that ain't the consensus view, then hell, let's put it to a vote.
Pete: Suits me. I'm voting for yours truly.
Everett: Well, I'm voting for yours truly, too.
[Everett and Pete look at Delmar for the deciding vote]
Delmar: Okay... I'm with you fellas. Was that before or after he was turned into a frog ?
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There was recently a 1E19 ( May ‘71 ) DIF ribbed 390 with picture posted on Facebook. Also a 1C29 ( March ‘71 ) DIF ribbed (possibly) 390 with picture on Facebook today.
*edited as picture was added confirming ribs.
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There was recently a 1E19 ( May ‘71 ) DIF ribbed 390 with picture posted on Facebook. Also a 1C29 ( March ‘71 ) DIF ribbed (possibly) 390 with picture on Facebook today.
*edited as picture was added confirming ribs.
I had a non-ribbed FT block that I bought/flipped about 10 years ago. I don't remember the exact casting date but it was for sure Feb of '71.
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I think Ford just did stuff when they wanted to do it, with no rhyme or reason.
I'm working on a 445 right now that uses a 390 block.
That 390 block has a "C" scratch, as well as an "I" scratch beside it. It has crow's feet mains. It has a pickup mount hole near the #3 main. It has a 3/8" pipe plug right above the pan rail on the driver's side. It has the oversized distributor shaft hole. It also has "66-427" cast on the rear of the block, and also has the bosses for the sideoiler main galley plug and relief valve plug.
Goofiest thing I've ever seen.
Every thick walled FT block that I have every had or seen was exactly as you described including the "CI" scratch. Cast with 4.05" bore cores and 428 water jacket cores. Check for the raised "428" cast into the floor of the water jacket. If you can't find or see it do the drill bit test. I would bet money that it is indeed a thick walled FT block.
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Bringed back an old thread, but I recently picked up a FE core short block; and it is somewhat interesting. First off, it is the first FE block that I have had that had neither the "352" or "105" on the drivers front pf the block, just blank other than an upside down 68. The LF side has 48 DIF, with no C4/C6/D3/D4 type of casting number . It does have the ribs on the block skirts, with the no triple ribbed internal main webbing. The casting date code is 1K, but with just a blank where the day should be. The only casting mark in the lifter valley is 76, and the rear bulkhead has just 76, and an small upside down V . Interesting, in that it has the "short" 428 style upper coolant passages on the deck surfaces, no "428" visible in the water , I imagine at some point it was rebuilt at a high volume engine shop, as the guy I bought it from said it was in a 75 F250 4x4, and it has the 4x4 pan setup, and a plug into the block dipstick hole, but the block is dated D1, is .030" over, and the 2T crank is .020-.020", but the rods are EDC, with small slits in the nuts, so I am guessing its a 352 with 1958 332/352 rods. The dipstick for the 4x4 pan is stamped D5TE, and the valve cover stickers are also D5s. Oil pump is kinda odd, it`s cast iron, but the cover plate is about 3 times as thick as any OF Ford or Melling pump that I have ever seen before. Also has a 1970 dated C9AE-A water pump, and I am guessing the truck was factory equipped with a Thermactor air pump, as the engine came with the low mount alternator brackets, and the water pump pulley has 2 grooves, plus a large, narrow groove pulley in the front. Crank pulley is cast iron 2 groove. So it seems to be a bit of a Frankenstein engine, date wise.
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Rory---
Here's a thought for you. We used to, back in the late '60s, make high volume oil pumps by cutting up a pump body in order to make a spacer plate, and using a rebuild kit for a truck pump. We would have the spacer plate lapped to flat and proper thickness in the department where they had the valve body lapping operation at T&C Livonia. Use the cover plates from both pumps stacked for extra strength/support. Then somebody (aftermarket) started selling a cover plate that was hollow on the inside to create the space for the truck gear and rotor. It sounds as if that's what you found in your engine.
To use the rebuild kit, you also had to press the shaft out of the truck-height gear and use one from a passenger car pump.
KS
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Ken, back in the 70s, I had one of those oil pumps, deep rotors (534 Ford truck engine perhaps?) with a deep machined aluminum cover, but since this appears to be a bone stock 360 in a 4x4 PU (cast pistons, standard timing chain etc), I don`t know why anybody would think such a pump would be needed. I should pop the cover off the oil pump to see whats inside. But this is the first FE that I have owned, that didn`t have either the "352" or "105" cast into the LF of the block.I will do the drill bit test, to see if the 428 type coolant passages in the deck show anything.
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Over the years I’ve seen a few, both actual, and pictures, FE/FT blocks without either “352” or “105” on the front. Pretty sure pictures would turn up at times in the old FE Forum too. I don’t know that I’ve seen any ‘58 FE blocks that have the “352” on the front, since those generally have the raised artifact of the front core plug that very very early FE blocks had in that area. Then there is an era where the front of the blocks have the “C2AE” cast in that location, then I’ve seen a few after that era that have nothing on the front for a little while. Recently a picture & question was posted on Facebook with a block without “352” on the front that seems to maybe fit that time period. The person posted said it has a “C3AE-6015-H” casting number on the side. I asked him to post the date code, but he never came back with any more info. I put a screenshot of that one below. Unfortunately that’s what happens a lot in these topics, so we don’t always get the complete picture. I currently have a Michigan Casting Center (MCC) D4TE block that doesn’t have any marking on the front, other than the mold pattern number. This block has a “8C22” casting date code, 1978 March 22nd, a really late one! It was a 361 FT. Picture of that one is below. I’ve seen quite a few other MCC blocks that don’t have the “105” on the front, they don’t appear as common as the 105 blocks, but not unusual either. I think it would be interesting to hear from the guys that worked at the foundries, or the pattern shops, how often these various mold patterns were replaced just in the course of regular use.
(https://i.postimg.cc/43qgkZwM/92-A6-AD0-B-9-E45-4-DDA-99-E5-DE49-AAED828-D.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Ny6Vm337)
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3tPG10h/3D62C0C8-9FD3-4FC5-8EC2-83D3A564A822.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9Py3j1D)
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Rory and others I've got a few blocks like those 22 or 70 something on the front with a 105 along the oil pan rail as well as one or 2 with the 105 inside the BH area.
I've got about 20 at this time and will check as time allows. Right now I'm working on an adapter to use a log splitter as a sheet metal press brake because my bead roller doesn't have the capacity to press the rolled sheet metal bend for my 48 Lincoln firewall to clear the FE 3X2 intake. 6+ hours into fabricating the die process so far,
As f0r the FE engines I'll get some pictures and post them here.
Richard >>> FERoadster
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(https://i.postimg.cc/d3tPG10h/3D62C0C8-9FD3-4FC5-8EC2-83D3A564A822.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Q9Py3j1D)
Kevin - Glad to see the guard spider keeping watch on your U-Haul block ;D ;D That is a REALLY late one!