FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: T U Bar on January 24, 2020, 05:32:50 PM
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Brand new to the site, thanks in advance for your patience...
I have my dad’s ‘66 Fairlane GT (which he ordered while still serving in Vietnam) and I am finally starting a restoration after 30+ years of planning/dreaming/etc. I am not worried about a concourse correct car, but would like as much originality as possible with upgrades to brakes, suspension and obviously HP. After writing down a parts list that included a 445 stroker kit, Edelbrock heads and intake and roller everything, and a possible letter from the bride’s attorney, I am reconsidering some options. Here we go:
1. Install stroker kit with original iron GT heads (with possible 2.09/1.65 valve job)? Already have 6113 Hooker SC headers. Will these heads negate the benefits of the increased displacement?
2. Spend money on machining original 390 heads, crank and rods with new forged flat tops, RPM intake? After reading most of the posts on these forums, a lot can be done leaving it standard stroke. Is a guy approaching the cost of a new stroker rotating assembly after paying the machine shop bill?
Everything is all original, block is still standard bore (@ the machine shop, hopefully will clean at 30). Toploader and rear end already rebuilt (3.50’s).
Right now I’m leaning towards the stroker kit with iron heads to get up and running and then upgrading the heads and cam/rocker assembly later after paint and suspension. Obviously, as you all well know, it’s a cost vs benefit thing.
End goal is a stealthy, well mannered cruiser.
Thanks for the feedback!
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I can speak to 1 and somewhat lesser to 2.
1) Unless your heads are pretty nice already you're gonna have close to E-Head money in them, particularly if increasing valve size. I would not do it again. Granted, you're going to want to check the E-Heads over, but still...
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2) Likewise it depends on what it needs, pistons, rings, bearings, arp bolts, re-size rods, grind crank, balance... bet you are at least halfway to a stroker kit if not three quarters... My situation was a little different as I started with a 360, but I've always said if I had it to do over I'd build at least a 410... with the current state of strokers, if you're gonna build a 410, you might as well build a 445...
3) You didn’t ask, but a two owner, one family Fairlane GT sounds like a car I would probably not make any irrevocable changes to...
You’ll probably get a lot more opinions and more expert too... :)
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Your goals are a bit vague, so it's really hard to know what you really want.
What to do depends upon that goal and the condition of your original parts. It, for instance, a machinist says your C6AE heads are in really great shape and a good valve job will snug them up, then that's a path where maybe you do a good valve job, replace the springs and run a good roller cam with something like a Performer RPM intake and a 750CFM carburetor. Yeah, you want a clean up overbore with some good forged piston and get the crank touched up and recondition the rods with new ARP 2000 bolts.
If the heads are bad...sunk valves and all that, then for sure you would go the Edelbrock head route or other alloy heads as your budget allows.
A stroker kit -and don't buy a stroker in anything other than a complete kit- is nice but adds to the expense since you are now in for a new crank and rods.
You can get a lot of really useful performance out of a 390 by just following some practical and well-known build examples. And the 390 is a very budget-adaptable engine so you can get some really nice results for your investment.
Welcome to the FE world.
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There's no replacement for displacement. I also know a good, FE friendly, divorce attorney.
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As someone whose first new car was a '64 Custom/427, I've been back-'n'-forth over the FE terrain a number of times. Some years ago I did a project with the intent of seeing what was possible with a 390, using aftermarket pieces, but retaining the original displacement. (I did do an overbore of .030 for a cleanup.) I used Dove Heads and intake manifold, and asked Comp Cams to grind for me a solid roller that would duplicate the street manners of the 'AA' solid 427 cam from the '60s.
Using dyno headers and a 850 Holley dyno carb, We found 500 HP after a 15-minute break-in, and a couple of pulls. We stopped at that point, for reasons that'd take a half-dozen paragraphs here. There was probably a bit more available, since we'd only dialed-in about 32 degrees total with the diz, and hadn't done anything to the carb.
My point is that with a perfect set of components there's likely close to 600 'street' HP available without upping displacement. Some of the tuners here will be able to get even more, but you'd be quite rapidly going away from street.
I agree with those that tell you that having a set of well-worn heads redone will cost surprisingly close to a set of Edelbrocks, and properly going through the recip assembly will cost close to a stroker kit.
Decide, for sure, what your ultimate plans are. Go from there. And build something that will make YOU happy. Don't stay away from things because it might compromise later value to a collector.
KS
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This is just how I would approach it, not knowing the situation of your family obviously, I would use the opportunity to build my dad's personality into the project. Personally my father is of the #%&@ it, it's just money variety. So my build would bring that forward. Also with my father would be a lack of consideration for driveabilty, who cares, make it fast. So me personally, the build would go, 445, all forged rotating parts. Aftermarket heads without a doubt, I've fixed so many heads over the last 25 years, and currently don't own a factory cylinder head. I would then put a lumpy solid flat tappet, or solid roller, a single plane manifold, and probably an 850. Then I'd go beat the crap out of it, and say shoot, I should think about new disc brakes. But that's just kinda the approach taken at the Dickman households. Have fun with it, no matter what you do, that's a great piece of American history you have, for more reasons then 1.
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I think starting with the stroker kit is the right idea, the top end can always be more easily updated later. You will still feel the cubic inch improvement from the stroker kit, regardless of what heads are on the engine. And find out what it's going to cost to go through the heads you have, as mentioned previously it can get expensive and you may be better off starting with the Edelbrocks.
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I took many things into consideration being I have a real 1967 GT500. I was faced with similar dilemmas. You have more options now than ever.
You can have your cake and eat it too. Well, to some extent. Solid roller on the street bad idea. Single plane manifold. Bad Idea. The stroker kits are cast cranks with few exceptions, as was the OE with the exception of the 427. There are plenty of us here running cast cranks with no issues.
I spent 1500.00 on a set of C6AE-R heads. Springs, seats, valves and associated machine work. I went with Edelbrocks the second time.
They flow better, weigh 50 lbs less than the iron and run cooler. I still wound up changing over to 2.19- 1.75 exhaust and a spring change as well.
Alex Parts has the valves for 175.00 for all 16. The matched spring sets are about 165.00 and that's with shims and retainers. ( https://www.alexsparts.com/)
There are several very good running dual plane manifolds. Jay Brown's Manifold Shoot-out book is excellent. I would consider a Blue Thunder 428 CJ offering.
A hydraulic roller would also lend more reliability. You also have to consider your cam choices based on need for vacuum ( power brakes).
Many things to take into consideration.
-Keith
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Single plane manifolds are NOT a bad idea. The Edelbrock Streetmaster and the Holley Street Dominator outperform nearly all the dual plane manifolds that are available. A large single plane intake, like an Edelbrock Victor, costs lots of bottom end torque. But the smaller single plane Streetmaster and Street Dominator intakes don't, they make nearly equal low end torque to the dual planes and they make more peak power. If I was building an engine for a car, in the 350-500 HP range, I'd put a Streetmaster on it.
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What's the hp goal?
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HP goal is 450.
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My advise is to make a decision that fits your budget and do it ASAP. Don’t push it off until you get more money. Get it on the road and begin enjoying it now.
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HP goal is 450.
Pretty easy goal.
You can do that with a 445 and the factory heads or the 390 with aftermarket heads. The 445 would make for a strong foundation for future upgrades, but a 390 with Trick Flow heads, a hydraulic roller, and a Performer RPM would probably exceed your goal.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=6468.0
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I would look closely at your header flanges and the stock exhaust port though before you commit to the heads. If the 6113s are a CJ flange, you may have sealing issues with all GT heads other than C6AE-R. C6AE-R work pretty well as they have a smaller port that seals to the CJ header
FYI, all the advice here is good, take a look at the dyno section for my recent truck motor. It says EFI, but was dyno'd with a carb and standard ignition and the injectors hanging in the ports.
Small cam stroker, a few more cubes than you, but exceeded your goal and absolutely can't complain about the torque curve, it's like a diesel, and that was with a Victor with port-matching
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I tried to attach a pic of the stamping on the GT heads, but will get it figured out for next time. I assume they are regular C6AE heads. They do not read C6AE-R. What does the isolated R and 6090R signify? I also have a set of C8AE-H which I assume are nothing special?
Does anyone have experience with aftermarket heads and the 6113 headers?
Thanks for all of the help and input fellas.
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I tried to attach a pic of the stamping on the GT heads, but will get it figured out for next time. I assume they are regular C6AE heads. They do not read C6AE-R. What does the isolated R and 6090R signify? I also have a set of C8AE-H which I assume are nothing special?
Does anyone have experience with aftermarket heads and the 6113 headers?
Thanks for all of the help and input fellas.
I am pretty sure, if not 100% positive that the 6113 (and the Mustang version of 6114) are for CJ/early/aftermarket heads. If you don't see a "U" or "R" you need to measure how low the floor of the port is. If it's an R, which is just a unique head with a low riser intake port and low roof/high floor exhaust, then you are good. If it's a U, then it's a small port intake and low exhaust port like your C8AE-H, won't fit the headers and gives up flow for no benefit
U vs R are just application differences and ways to get there, both are common, and likely the R is more common, and preferred
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6090 tells you it is a cylinderhead
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Machine shop prices are all over so it's hard to say "this, that" for any particular situation. Here, because there are almost no performance shops at all it is a better total investment to buy a kit with everything and then take your block in to get it prepped. There's one shop left that grinds cranks and he doesn't do it very often. Most others closed down/retired. And the one good shop does mostly resto work and diesel repair - few people do their own thing anymore. They go buy a crate motor.
I spent $2400 on a 393C racing level kit - name brand H beam rods, pistons, steel crank, rings, bearings, etc. I already had a decked and bored block. Sent they guy my black deck measure and requested deck clearance (.005) and all I needed to do was have the block honed out another .001. Bolted it all in and made 575 HP with it. The point being that working with a good vendor will get you parts that work right out of the box, vs running around getting this and that done, collecting parts, going back and paying to have it all balanced, etc.
Heads are another thing - depends on the amount of work they need. You quickly reach a tipping point where you are money and power generation ahead to just buy modern units. Simple valve job/update, stocker level cam/springs, etc likely no problem. You start to step up and you should be tossing every bit of OEM valve train equipment.
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What did you decide to do?
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To keep Kevin’s FE attorney at bay, I told the bride to book her dream trip to Hawaii as an anniversary present. This sure seemed to soften the blow when we discussed the engine build LOL! I’m not calculative enough to plan things that way, but hey, it worked...
Going with the 445 stroker kit, rpm intake (unless I stumble onto a Streetmaster per Jay), upgraded factory R heads (with CJ valves, POP’s end stands and spacers) and one of Brent’s magic hft cams.
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There is a Holley Street Dominator for sale on "Letgo" in Colorado for $250. According to Jay's research the Street Dominator and Streetmaster were pretty much the same, and needed the same work on the plenum and runner inlets.
You won't regret stroking it.
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To keep Kevin’s FE attorney at bay, I told the bride to book her dream trip to Hawaii as an anniversary present. This sure seemed to soften the blow when we discussed the engine build LOL! I’m not calculative enough to plan things that way, but hey, it worked...
Going with the 445 stroker kit, rpm intake (unless I stumble onto a Streetmaster per Jay), upgraded factory R heads (with CJ valves, POP’s end stands and spacers) and one of Brent’s magic hft cams.
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, rpm intake (unless I stumble onto a Streetmaster per Jay),
Contact Denny or Pam at www.aldridgemotorsportsinc.com. He's where I found my Streetmaster. He may have another in his stash. Super nice, decades of experience and wicked smart people!
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There’s at least 4 street master intakes on eBay right now, if I was a little more clever I would cut and paste the link, I just put 390 intake in the search, a couple of them look to be in great shape.
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Thanks for your direction gentlemen.