FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 66FAIRLANE on September 02, 2019, 12:14:38 AM
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Is there a preferred brand of flat tappet solid lifter these days or any to avoid? ie. better metallurgy or foot radius etc that may help reduce failure.
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I use Crower or Trend EDM lifters when I do solid flat tappets. They are SBF lifters so you have to use different length pushrods, but on a new build, you have to measure for new pushrods anyway.
I also order my cams with extra lobe taper.
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Depends on budget. The best ones I get are tool steel shell lifters, but they are expensive, custom made stuff. For budget minded situations, I use Crower with the Camsaver machining. It is a small flat spot on the OD to oil the cam. I do not use the EDM hole lifters. That is a good place to dig a hole in my opinion. A spinning hole in the center of a lifter running across the lobe is not the best option for me. I like a smooth crown with the oil spinning in from that tiny flat right at the lifter bore.
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Thanks for the feedback guys. Since the Aussie dollar is at a 10 year low I am shelving my plans for a mild hydraulic roller & putting it back together with an old Crane Fireball 294 I used to run years ago. The lifters are long since departed so will do a break in procedure again with new lifters.
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What about on a center oiler block? Do the Camsaver lifters make any difference then?
thanks,
paulie
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Depends on budget. The best ones I get are tool steel shell lifters, but they are expensive, custom made stuff. For budget minded situations, I use Crower with the Camsaver machining. It is a small flat spot on the OD to oil the cam. I do not use the EDM hole lifters. That is a good place to dig a hole in my opinion. A spinning hole in the center of a lifter running across the lobe is not the best option for me. I like a smooth crown with the oil spinning in from that tiny flat right at the lifter bore.
I really like the Camsavers on hydraulic cams.
As for the EDM hole lifters, I haven’t lost a cam yet to them, with up to 450 lbs open pressure. Knock on wood............
To the OP, the Trends that I use are tool steel and are about 3 times the price of the Crower stuff, and the Crowers are about 50% higher than a traditional Comp/Crane dumb bell or shell lifter. Much higher prices but IMO it’s worth it to keep a cam happy.
Paulie, the Camsaver and EDM lifters are designed to be used with pressurized oil. Trend makes tool steel lifters without the EDM hole for such applications. I’m doing a high riser build with a C/O block right now with that set up.
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Paul, I have Crower make shell lifters a few sets at a time with the Camsaver groove all the way to the top. On pressure fed bores, the Camsaver groove only goes from the band to the bottom. On solid lifter blocks with no oil, I thread the drain holes and put about a 1/2" pipe nipple in those holes. It will flood flood the valley before it drains back. Then, the full groove Camsaver will feed the lobes. Just needs about one extra quart of oil for the pool that lives up top when the engine is running. With warm oil, and the spinning lifter, it gives the lobes a supply of oil.
It is important to use open nipples if you do this. Screwing a plug in those holes will inhibit crankcase venting. Sometimes I get a block in here that someone has plugged. This is not good, as it will create pressure in the crankcase. If you use nipples, the oil will drain back to the timing cover, and go right back to the front sump. On rear sump pans, I make provision to drain at the very back, but still maintain a pool for lifter oil.
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Although any bit of oil that dribbles around should be a little better, unless you are going radical, I just haven't seen flat tappet failures, solid or otherwise, after a good break in and good oil. Admittedly, I run street lobes up to only about .600 lift, but I never think twice about them to tell you the truth
The absolute majority of the oil comes from the crank, so keeping idle on the higher side of what you like, running the right oil, correct spring pressure, and making sure the lifters are free to rotate and no binding in the valve train are the real must-dos.
As far as brands, I have a set of new Morels dumbells that are very pretty here, and likely leftover if you are in a bind. However, I have bought bulk "Johnsons" off Ebay and they worked great on a 282S, who knows what they really were LOL In the end, I think your oil and assembly will be the key factors
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I have a set of Trend tool steel lifters, uncoated for cast cams, that have been on the shelf for a while. I did a lot of research at the time, but got sidelined with other stuff and haven't tried using them. I still haven't seen where folks have had problems or failures with them, seem like a great deal. I have seen it recommended to still follow a break-in procedure like a regular flat-tappet to allow the cam itself to get warm n fuzzy, is that what you gents do, and is it as easy as it seems? I have a .684 sft that would match up well with my 454, and not having to go roller would simplify things for now. Am I missing anything? For springs, would a lower-end roller spring work well? I have some Isky Tool Room springs that are not battleship spec, but reportedly good quality. What kind of pressures would be appropriate? Lower end is RPM-capable, Crower rods, light pistons and 3.98 stroked 391 steel crank. As always, I'm sure everyone is as thankful as I am when you guys share your knowledge and experience- Thanks!
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I have a set of Trend tool steel lifters, uncoated for cast cams, that have been on the shelf for a while. I did a lot of research at the time, but got sidelined with other stuff and haven't tried using them. I still haven't seen where folks have had problems or failures with them, seem like a great deal. I have seen it recommended to still follow a break-in procedure like a regular flat-tappet to allow the cam itself to get warm n fuzzy, is that what you gents do, and is it as easy as it seems? I have a .684 sft that would match up well with my 454, and not having to go roller would simplify things for now. Am I missing anything? For springs, would a lower-end roller spring work well? I have some Isky Tool Room springs that are not battleship spec, but reportedly good quality. What kind of pressures would be appropriate? Lower end is RPM-capable, Crower rods, light pistons and 3.98 stroked 391 steel crank. As always, I'm sure everyone is as thankful as I am when you guys share your knowledge and experience- Thanks!
I would use those and break in the cam like you would any other camshaft.
The spring pressures depend on the entire combination. It's lobe shape and rpm dependent. RPM of course depends on a ton of things, including how well the heads flow, the cam specs, etc.
FWIW, I've used nitrided cast cams and those Trend tool steel lifters with about 170 lbs seat and 450 lbs open on some 7000-7500 rpm applications.
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Yep, that kinda where I was headed for pressures, thinking using the mild roller springs set up that way would have good life- I hear good things about the Tool Room springs
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I am currently running about 150 lbs closed and 405 lbs open pressure. It is a Compcams solid flat tappet that has been nitrided. The lifters are standard Crower dumbells with an EDM hole. They are not the SBF lifters, they are FE dumbells.
It has worked okay for about 10 years, but maybe only 15,000 miles. I am not not super confident about the combination because I set the valves a couple thousandths tighter every time I check the lash.
paulie
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Thanks Brent and Blair. I will be deciding what to do with my Center Oiler 427 pretty soon. Tool steel or full-length Camsaver lifters sound better than drilling out the oil passage.
paulie
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Any idea what it would cost to send one back in to be nitrided?
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Paulie , your wear is more likely pushrod seats, cups and rockers due to the stout pressure. If you were losing thousandths at the lobe, it would get ugly and especially not be uniform
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Any idea what it would cost to send one back in to be nitrided?
About 150 smacks.
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I was going to say it is about the price of the camshaft. I was going to say $120-$150. Brent would know better than me, though.
Not much money in the grand scheme of engine building.
JMO,
paulie
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I guess I haven't bought a camshaft in a while. :)
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Paulie , your wear is more likely pushrod seats, cups and rockers due to the stout pressure. If you were losing thousandths at the lobe, it would get ugly and especially not be uniform
I think you are probably right. The wear has been very consistent across all the valves. It is still disconcerting to me because every couple of thousand miles I have to set it slightly tighter. Maybe 0.002" tighter? I do set on the tight side. I go 0.010" cold so I get about 0.017" hot. I set intake and exhaust the same even though I know the exhaust is a bit hotter.
paulie
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Do you use tool steel lifters on regular cast cams, or nitrided cast cams, or either?
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Cast no special treatment, but I tend to like a lazy lobe if I can manage overlap.
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I don't know, but I would think you would want the lifter and cam to be similar in hardness and finish? You wouldn't want one to be significantly different than the other? That's why I was asking about the tool steel lifters on the normal cast cam. Of course I have a nitrided cam with normal cast lifters.
So, should the cam be harder than the lifters or the lifters harder than the cam, or should they be the same?
paulie
And the lifters are a lot smoother finish? I am not sure.
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Although any bit of oil that dribbles around should be a little better, unless you are going radical, I just haven't seen flat tappet failures, solid or otherwise, after a good break in and good oil. Admittedly, I run street lobes up to only about .600 lift, but I never think twice about them to tell you the truth
One of the Facebook feeds I'm one, guy just lost a mile hydro flat during break in with all the right parts and oil.
Above discussion is why I'd rather ride the bus than buy any more flat tappet cams. Roller and done. Want to change - pull one roller out, put another in. Done. No BS. Lose one cam, now you could have bought the roller business and you still have to hope break in goes well. No more at this house. After I lost one running $$$ EDM lifters and real racing oil (proper levels of ZDDP, etc), that was it. I've been doing things like this since 1974 and I'll not waste my time on less at this point. 8)
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Do you use tool steel lifters on regular cast cams, or nitrided cast cams, or either?
You can use uncoated tool steel lifters on both non-nitrided and nitrided cast core cams.
Coated tool steel lifters go on steel core cams.
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Do you use tool steel lifters on regular cast cams, or nitrided cast cams, or either?
You can use uncoated tool steel lifters on both non-nitrided and nitrided cast core cams.
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What is the best somewhat economical solution for a somewhat high pressure flat tappet? Tool steel lifters on a nitrided cam?
Thanks,
paulie
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Yes, nitrided and tool steel.
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Thank you, sir.