FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 427HISS on August 14, 2019, 04:42:39 PM
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Just wanting to chat with others who has his. What runner specs, air flow etc.
I don't know if their all basically the same or all different per customer's engine. I know he experienced a lot with a slew of engines and specs.
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I know Stan Weiss lists flow numbers on two different sets of Dove heads both using 2.09” and 1.65” valves.
One he calls “428 CJ Canadian Aluminum” and it flowed 320 CFM at .700” lift.
The other he refers to as “428 Hi Velocity Aluminum” and flow is listed at 290CFM at .500” lift.
No other flow values are listed for either head.
If your heads are similar to these, the stack intake manifold will flow way more than the Dove heads.
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As you may already know the internet is full of stories of porosity problems with Dove heads. If you haven’t already done so, you should get them pressure tested before getting too deep.
I’ve always wanted a set of Dove tunnel port heads but I don’t want to take the chance of getting a set with porosity problems.
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I worked with Jim Dove on a number of projects when I was writing for Super Ford Magazine, Mustang and Fords Magazine, and Mustang Illustrated. What Jim called 'F5' heads were the subject of an extended project of building a 390 street engine using all that we'd learned right up into the 21st Century. I had Jim cast a set of his F5 heads using the basic design of the combustion chamber from the 352-360 head and using his 'third design' exhaust runners. The 'Canadian CJ Aluminum' mentioned above is the F5, but it'll take a fair degree of work to get it to 320.
I went to Wayne Kuchtyn of 'HeadWinds' in Westland, MI., to have the combustion chambers re-worked for the latest 'heart'-shape, and the runners worked over in the manner recommended by Jim. When we were done, the Superflow showed 335 CFM at .700 lift, using a Ferrea 2.100 'nailhead' intake valve contoured per Jim's diagrams. The pockets and seats were Serdi-cut to also match the instructions.
It's all guesswork until you identify exactly what you have. Jim had the ability to mix-'n'-match various features. And he either impregnated the castings before sending them out, or was equally willing to do the impregnation after any improvement work was finished. That's what FoMoCo does. Mercedes too. And Jim was using the same impregnation equipment as the other manufacturers do.
J Bittle told me he'd seen a number of Jim's castings that had been ported until they got into the water jackets and then blamed 'porosity' for the problem. I personally watched a dyno run on an Oldsmobile engine that started gushing water to such an extent that the engine hydraulic-locked. The problem was a void big enough to stick your finger in. The heads came from Edelbrock. When you do aluminum casting, you'll get voids. It's the nature of the material. We had a large department at T&C Livonia only to do porosity repairs on C6 cases. And those cases weren't sand-cast---I believe they were injection-molded---a far more precise procedure.
KS
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Do you believe the porosity issues with Dove heads is unfounded? Like maybe a few isolated cases drew lots of attention and a small problem got blown out of proportion?
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Bear in mind it was THIRTY years ago , but Ford Power Parts here in So Cal sold many Dove heads and about EIGHTY percent had VISIBLE porosity issues. I know Jim was not "pressure sealing" them then and that he continued to work hard at making a quality part. He was not a fly by night guy. He took allot of pride in what he made and sold. The porosity complaints stopped fifteen or twenty years ago and visible porosity went away. Blue Thunder switched foundries on their heads "only" for similar reasons.
Some of the original "prototype foundry " Ford made aluminum heads had visible porosity as well. As cammerfe mentioned it is the nature of aluminum casting.
Randy
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I have 2 sets of Dove heads. The flow numbers posted earlier are NOT out of the box. My CCJ heads were something like 280 CFM and it took a 2.15 Intake valve and a lot of work including filling the intake floor to get them up around 320. I called Dove about this because their website and most literature posted the 320 number. Was told that was the "potential" not actual so a bit of false advertising IMO. Castings looked pretty good an NO porosity problems.
The other set is also called a CCJ head but the Intake and exhaust ports are different and they have the 352 style small chamber. No idea on flow and the casting is terrible with more pinholes than one can count but they make good power and don't leak. My Dove T-wedge is a pretty good piece with no porosity problems either.
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Do you believe the porosity issues with Dove heads is unfounded? Like maybe a few isolated cases drew lots of attention and a small problem got blown out of proportion?
Jim did his casting in a smaller building on the back of his property. Problem castings were simply dumped in a pile off to one side. He discovered one morning that the entire pile of rejects had been stolen. For quite some time thereafter there were Dove parts offered for sale in classified ads here and there. Jim contended that someone who didn't care about anything but a quick buck was selling off his rejects. As I said above, porosity of some sort or other is the nature of aluminum casting. And some of the porosity might not show itself until the parts had been whittled on after delivery. That was the opinion of J Bittle when I talked to him about it.
I simply believe that you must take each instance as its own set of circumstances. There's no one answer that fits all. I'll tell you for sure that Jim was passionate about offering the best of which he was capable.
KS
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I have 3 sets of dove heads. One set of f5 head, they flow 286 at 550 lift, two sets of medium risers, they flow 327 at 600. Also two dove spider intakes. One with a welded on dominator top. No leaks on anything.
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CammerFE, There were rumors flying around Carlisle 15 yrs ago about the bad Dove parts and who had absconded with the stuff. A bunch of it showed up at Carlisle and there were several unfinished and bad looking castings. That guy was a previous rep for Dove and acted very conceited when asked about them.
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I've been hearing the stolen parts tale since the early 90's... true or not Jim Dove and his crew sold the seconds and unfinished castings at the local swapmeets right along side the "good" parts. That's how I originally met him and in part where my interest in FEs came from.
Otherwise failures of heads and intakes bought directly from Jim as first quality parts are very, very common occurrences. Simply ask around at the next show and form your own opinion. His embedding process did little more than make repairs more difficult. Several sets have passed a cold pressure check just for the embedding to then fail on a fresh engine. We have to remember this process seals minor pores in the casting and was never intended to bandaid inconsistent castings with thin walls and major porosity. Dove's regular excuse for this was that an owner over ported his heads. While certainly possible most of those leakers I've run across have been as cast examples. I've also been told that Dove heads without
a heatriser passage did not have these casting problems. In my experience this is also completely false.
In saying this I still have a bit of respect for the products Dove made. Matter of fact his factory style castings with part numbers are exactly what I'd be interested in if not using original Ford parts. Still I can count the guys I've met who got good parts on one hand. Where I've lost count of the failures I've witnessed myself let alone the stories you hear. Have anything you plan to buy thoroughly inspected.
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There are numerous different Dove castings and you need to identify which ones you have to really know what kind of potential you have.
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Dove continued to have porosity problems right up to the end of their production; to say it stopped 15 years ago is not accurate. Case in point two pair of SOHC heads that I purchased direct from Dove during their last production run of them. Three out of the four heads had porosity problems and leaked right out of the box. A different three were machined incorrectly, and when the cam was bolted into the head it was seized, would not turn. A few years earlier I'd purchased some high riser heads from Dove, and one of those also leaked. I returned the set and waited a full year for replacements (which did not leak thankfully).
Buyer beware of porosity and machining problems with any Dove heads.
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And blocks....
I used one several years ago that looked like it had been shot with a shotgun.
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I have epoxied several Dove products over the years due to porosity issues. Joe-JDC
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Yes, there were many issues with casting/porosity . However I would never bash Jim or any of his efforts. He was doing what no one else would at the time and made many different configurations as well. Many of his heads and blocks ended up in record setting race cars of all kinds. Roundy round, road race, drag race. His parts had a lot of potential back in that era. If it wasn't for Dove and all that they done I doubt very seriously that the FE would be as far along as it is now. As far as the Canadian cobra jet heads go, it took me 14 months to get a set. Neither had any leaking issues although they looked completely different from each other. One was the typical looking aluminum casting we are familiar with these days and the other was a very dark gray and rough looking. My ccj heads after fitting the valves 2.09 and 1.65 and a nice valve job went 306 at .700 out of the box with no port work. However the valve job was done by Bob Evens who did heads for grand national engines back in the 80's. He later did port work for me, fitted 2.15 and 1.65 11/32" stem valves for my 4.130 bore FE. The heads worked really well and went 332 at .700 after that. Those heads are still going strong on a 68 torino fast back street strip car that goes 10.20's is full street trim. Kinda wish I woulda never sold them.