FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: wayne on August 10, 2019, 06:35:59 PM
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I was taking my cj apart and its got a x not c or a on back the guy i got it from said it was a new short block from ford in the early 70s a 391?
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Pat Ganahl's Ford Performance book wrongly stated that 428 service blocks are overbored 391's. Not true! That may be where you heard that you might have a 391.
From what I have read, many service blocks cast after the end of 428 car production received the "X" scratch. It's possible that they were taken from industrial / agricultural block production, which continued after car production stopped.
I'm no authority on this, so please chime in!
- Bill
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Many later ribbed 428 blocks do have an X. Some have CX. I think all of those are from airport luggage haulers, irrigation pump engines, etc. Not 391 trucks. No "428 core" blocks that I am aware of, or have ever seen have "105" on the front. I have seen a few 390 bore blocks with "428" cylinder cores. They always have small lettered "352" up front, and ribs at the pan rail. '73-4-5 dates. I think these are service replacement blocks for 361/391 but I don't think the original FT blocks had thick cores. I believe that near the end, all service blocks had 428 cores, and a very few of those were bored 4.050 for FT "service replacement" blocks for the 391s. I'll bet a few guys have pulled a 391 apart that had 428 cores, but my thinking is that it wouldn't have been the original block.
About half of the 15 or 20 "428" core 390s that I have had in my whole life came to me well used, with a Ford bushing in the distributor pilot. This makes me think that maybe.....just maybe....anyone who went to the dealer and bought a 390 block in the 73-up era may have gotten 428 water jackets without even knowing it. If only we could ask Carl Holbrook. He would have had the info on that.......and probably kept it to himself..........
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About half of the 15 or 20 "428" core 390s that I have had in my whole life came to me well used, with a Ford bushing in the distributor pilot. This makes me think that maybe.....just maybe....anyone who went to the dealer and bought a 390 block in the 73-up era may have gotten 428 water jackets without even knowing it. If only we could ask Carl Holbrook. He would have had the info on that.......and probably kept it to himself..........
I bought one of those from Carl in perhaps 1985 or 86. I have only seen maybe two or three more "428" core 390s over the years here. One had a "C" scratch but 390 bores. Means that between you and I there are only a couple dozen accounted for. These are pretty rare deals - - except for ebay.
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I just happened to have one that I am using in my EMC engine. Nice and thick at 4.095 bore! Since they require an OEM block, I figured it was a good one for the task. Crossbolted #2 and #4. If it survives the flogging in testing, I'm sure it will make the contest pulls. Then I'm going to put it in my dad's Rayson Craft flat bottom for it's retirement duties!
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I just picked up a couple of late production FE short blocks and want to know how to ID the 428 core.
Only by looking into the water jackets or would the different water passage on the head surface be a good first look? Then look inside the water jacket.
Also Blair which ribs at the pan rail? The vertical ones or something different?
Richard >>> FERoadster
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Thanks for the answers Phil Fair and me sold carl some 428s and 427s back in 75-80 I dont think we ever found one with the x on back.427s back then were just like to day if you found one it was not for sale or big bucks 428 not to bad to find.No big yards had them but get out in sticks down a dirt road to small yard with 100 cars and a mustang or fairlane had a cj or old cop car maybe a tbird or a full size wagon had a reg 428.We went a lot of miles to find them we were pickers just not smart enough to have a tv show it was a lot of fun i miss it.I think we missed a lot of good stuff at the end we opened all ford hoods phil found a med riser intake on a 65 merc 4 door i found a 289 hipo in a 67 f 100.I had a 390 that had the small 352 in front in back it had 66 427 and side oiler galley castings it would have been a good ebay block shelby nascar thunderbolt factory exp i could have been rich dam.
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I just picked up a couple of late production FE short blocks and want to know how to ID the 428 core.
Also Blair which ribs at the pan rail? The vertical ones or something different?
Richard >>> FERoadster
The 428 inside the jacket, and an easy drill bit test will confirm. Sometimes the 428 is only in one side, but the drill bit will confirm that both sides are thick. They are way way thicker than any other 352/390 blocks. The vertical ribs above the pan rail are the ones I was referring to. All 71-up blocks have those ribs, but not all are "special".
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I just happened to have one that I am using in my EMC engine. Nice and thick at 4.095 bore! Since they require an OEM block, I figured it was a good one for the task. Crossbolted #2 and #4. If it survives the flogging in testing, I'm sure it will make the contest pulls. Then I'm going to put it in my dad's Rayson Craft flat bottom for it's retirement duties!
Whatcha building?
These rules are virtually written for you with all of your iron head experience.
You can PM if you do not want to share in public...
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I just happened to have one that I am using in my EMC engine. Nice and thick at 4.095 bore! Since they require an OEM block, I figured it was a good one for the task. Crossbolted #2 and #4. If it survives the flogging in testing, I'm sure it will make the contest pulls. Then I'm going to put it in my dad's Rayson Craft flat bottom for it's retirement duties!
Whatcha building?
These rules are virtually written for you with all of your iron head experience.
You can PM if you do not want to share in public...
I don't mind to share.....my dad always told me that my head was a solid chunk of iron, so I must have 50 years experience with the iron head, lol. It's a '64 390 combo with the G head. Still don't know which manifold yet, but I'm going to try three. Planned carb is about 930 cfm, but I have four or five bigger and smaller to try. Hope to get it up and testing in a few weeks. Not much time left. What did you end up doing?
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Went for the smallest cubes with the biggest stroke - 410 Mercury engine.
C6AE-R heads - had some good help on those but you'll probably still outrun them.
Couple manifolds to try - the usual suspects...
Asked Marvin for some carb ideas - I have a couple - wish they'd let me run my 3 barrel - that'd be fun...
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I'm sure your engine will be a solid piece. The rules don't allow me to get to the ultimate capability of the iron head, but I did what I could within the parameters. Maybe these old bus engines will show them something!
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One like this? Came out of a F-600,or possibly f-700 flat bed lumber truck . 391 .030 over as I recall. DIF block. 428 core
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Yours has the c also the one i have does not i bet you have a cj core look inside for the 428
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Did the drill bit test on it, yes it does have the 428 core
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I have seen a few 390 bore blocks with "428" cylinder cores. They always have small lettered "352" up front, and ribs at the pan rail. '73-4-5 dates.
I have one of these blocks. 3/16 allen wrench just fits between the cores, and it tested quite thick. No distributor bushing, FWIW.
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FWIW, I have heard the D3TE and D4TE 360 truck blocks are thick as well. Would be the same time frame production wise as the ribbed "352" 390 blocks.
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FWIW, I have heard the D3TE and D4TE 360 truck blocks are thick as well. Would be the same time frame production wise as the ribbed "352" 390 blocks.
My experience having a few of the blocks sonic tested is the D3TE & D4TE mirror 105 MCC blocks are not significantly thicker than the regular DIF & CF FE blocks. I know some will disagree with me, but that seems to be a story that started somewhere and persists. What Ford claimed is the new MCC blocks would have more control on core shift, which would allow a safer overbore, but I’ve sonic tested a couple MCC blocks with significant core shift too. So bottom line is don’t assume anything, test.
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FWIW, I have heard the D3TE and D4TE 360 truck blocks are thick as well. Would be the same time frame production wise as the ribbed "352" 390 blocks.
My experience having a few of the blocks sonic tested is the D3TE & D4TE mirror 105 MCC blocks are not significantly thicker than the regular DIF & CF FE blocks. I know some will disagree with me, but that seems to be a story that started somewhere and persists. What Ford claimed is the new MCC blocks would have more control on core shift, which would allow a safer overbore, but I’ve sonic tested a couple MCC blocks with significant core shift too. So bottom line is don’t assume anything, test.
No problem Cat, that's why I put "FWIW". I wont state anything as fact unless I have first-hand experience with it, and I never had a D3/D4 block. IIRC, I think I heard it from Jim Kuntz, but my memory could be playing tricks on me, it was 20 some years ago.
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I recently scrapped an otherwise very nice D4TE (360) block due to porosity in the casting. Porosity holes in the pan rail and mains. Obviously it ran that way for years but I didn't want to take the chance spending a bunch of money on it. Hadn't ever seen that before, cylinders looked good guess that's the reason it passed QC.