FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 427HISS on August 09, 2019, 03:45:34 PM
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Here in eastern Ne., we have 4 gas stations and Omaha has 8. The problem is that many gear heads have said that each station reports have different amounts of E85. Isn't this mixture percentage controlled by the state or government ?
That issue could be controlled by on-board computers "flex fuel" system, but what about high performance engines we have, that could be a real bad problem.
Also, please give us details if you're using this fuel, your engine specs and dyno run numbers.
How much more compression can we have ?
With our engine builders here, have you tested different fuels, like regular gas of say, 90 octane VS E85 for performance differences ? What percentage of E85 you used to test, etc...?
Finally, what's everyone's thoughts on using regular gas VS E85 and pluses and minuses of it ?
I just found this website, a group of racers using Pro E85 Racing, and a drag race interview video.
Website-
https://proe85racing.com/
Video- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLhztOoClzs
Video-
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quality is all over the place which makes it tough in a performance application
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Yep, that's why I'm questioning it's use on my engine. The Government regulates regular fuel, and each stations fuel has to pass each month, I believe. So why with E85 ?
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I think pretty much every station here in Minnesota carries E85, at least in any city of size. I looked into running it in a bracket race drag car years ago, but found the same issue, that actual pump E85 varies a lot on percentage from station to station, and seasonally. I could be wrong, but I think the regulations only apply to a “maximum” mix. And like you said, modern flex fuel passenger vehicles can adjust. Unfortunately that would make it inconsistent for bracket racing, which is exactly what you don’t want. If you buy E85 from a race fuel supplier then you get a guaranteed percentage, but that ends up eliminating the price advantage that pump E85 has. There are quite a few people that run E85 on events like Drag Week, but what they usually do is carry an E85 test kit to test the percentage at each fuel stop, and they carry some straight Ethanol or E98 to mix with the pump E85 and bring the percentage up as needed.
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I run E85 on my 445 stroker in a 66 Tbird. Engine dynoed at 510hp, 565tq. I've had it for about 12-13 years running that way. I too have a test kit that I use. In MN, they drop it to E75 in the winter and then the summer blend bumps back up to E85. Once I know a station converts over to their summer blend, I will use that gas station until they change back to winter blend. I even spray it with a 100 shot on E85. It's cheaper to run than race fuel. It is a pain to learn how to tune, and a real pain without an A/F gauge. My milage is down around 5-6 mpg, so I don't know if I'm really saving that much money. But the stares that I get at the gas station pumping E85 into an old car is fun. I've had many people asking me what I'm doing, and I tell them that the older cars run better on E85. My wife enjoys the little joke too.
If you are trying to decide which way to go, I would not be scared to run E85. It's not going to get you there any faster or cheaper though. I run all Quick Fuel E85 metering blocks and a Proform carb body. Big electric fuel pump in the trunk with the cell, and a return line is necessary. Good luck! Dan
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I have done some side by side dyno pulls with E-85 vs 110.. Really no difference in power. But man is the manifold runner cold! I think charge cooling is somewhat offset by it being less energy dense that straight gasoline.. You can really throw some compression at it though.. That's where that charge cooling really helps. I am not a bracket racer so i don't care if the % is off a little bit from one batch to the next.. I do believe it has a wider tuning window than gasoline. The turbo guys love it..
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Pump E85 is targeted toward flex fuel vehicles. In that regard, it doesn't matter if the actual percentage is between 50 and 90 percent. The vehicle's computer will adjust to reach an appropriate A/F ratio for what's in the fuel line.
If you are building a very high performance engine that is being tuned to run on E85, then you better use real E85, like Rocket or VP fuels. Yes, I know people are using pump E85 but you are throwing caution to the wind if your tune up won't accommodate a mix outside of your tune. You are almost always going to be rich or lean, but how much depends on what's sloshing around in the tank.
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I've never added a computer to a engine, but I bought a stack injection system from a older gentleman that is retiring from driving. He drove it in his truck. Its a TWM/BORLA, with everything needed except lines. He put 300 miles on it.
It came with a FAST computer, but a friend ( is a dealer from a company, but I can't think of their name.,
My cost will be about $600.
It's a stand alone and I'll use my laptop. My friend (high performance shop) does not like the learning type, as you can do so much more with one.
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Race E85 is just over 100 octane. It will give you about 30% less MPG than gasoline. I have done some study, and find that able tuners can put enough of a generic tune in that it's safe to run 'pump' E85, and a sharper tune specifically for race fuel will give about 25-30 more HP on an 800-900 HP engine.
I am in the planning stages of putting a car together that will be turbo'd and use spray on occasion as well. That's the plan I'm going to follow. And after I've gotten thoroughly used to the car, I'll put in a new short-block and get serious. That combo will be run on methanol and the aforementioned spray. Let's see how fast I can go. ;)
KS
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I have done a couple but I don’t consider it worth it unless you are dealing with high boost or high compression, For the street it’s far easier to pay attention to static compression, cam choice and the resulting dynamic compression, And of course good blueprinting and parts choices
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To me, it's just doesn't make sense to me either. One, the grade is different at every station, two, the lack of stations.
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But so is gas, I am less concerned of the variation than the need or lack of need for a build. Anything that comes out of a pump varies
Availability is certainly valid though
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Its no good in a driver i have a 2005 taurus that can run it i used it and lost 4 mpg it started hard ford sent me notice if i was going to use it take it back to the dealer. To change the seting you can get in the computer and see how much is in it and from 60 to 90% in michigan.I have not run it in years it may be better now i would not want be on the edge on a motor with it
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Its no good in a driver i have a 2005 taurus that can run it i used it and lost 4 mpg it started hard ford sent me notice if i was going to use it take it back to the dealer. To change the seting you can get in the computer and see how much is in it and from 60 to 90% in michigan.I have not run it in years it may be better now i would not want be on the edge on a motor with it
Well, flex fuel vehicles are a different story, but I agree, it can be funky. It takes more ethanol to make the same power, basic science, what I don't like is that injectors are sized bigger for E85 or smaller for gas, whichever way you look at it. To make the same injector behave automatically for both is a little different than building one for a dedicated fuel.
The car has to basically adapt a pulse width and/or fuel pressure for the new fuel after identifying what is going on. I wish there was a knob on the dash that let you choose your fuel and had a pressure and pulse width choice, but undoubtedly someone would leave it in the wrong spot and hurt something
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I picked FAST ez2.0 because it would run on e85.
I ran it for a year then switched back to gas when I went on Power Tour in 2016,have not gone back. Car ran great on e85,I had no problems at all.
The only “problem” came from the FAST system it self,the self tuning requires you to “go” to the “cells” to tune them.That takes some time,and caution. You have to push it into the ranges that are not happy,several times.
Push it into unhappy,then down,repeat,go a little higher,repeat. Over and over
A separate fuel mixture indicator comes in handy.
It would drive me nuts though because it was always tuning.
I purchased an e85 tester and learned why,tank to tank the blend was never the same.seemed like it anyway. Here in TX. Jun Jul,Aug dead on 85% from my local station,the rest of the year....lowest percent was 60%. In Jan,early Feb.
Go out for some fun and the high rpm tune was suddenly not happy. I never felt it went lean,but 5-6:1 was normal when not happy.
Never had any of the horror story problems though.
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The big problem to me is not availability or variability in blend, it's fuel system contamination. Most of our cars sit for weeks or even months between driving them, this is not friendly to running ethanol fuel. If not running boost, I can't see how the headache of dealing with all the green/yellow booger buildup is worth it.
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"green/yellow booger buildup is worth it"
Lol,...after 15 years of 91% gas sitting in my tank, ya think I should drain it ? lol..
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The spec on "E85" is:
"n the United States, the exact ratio of fuel ethanol to hydrocarbon may vary according to ASTM 5798 that specifies the allowable ethanol content in E85 as ranging from 51% to 83%.[1] This is due to the lower heating value of neat ethanol making it difficult to crank engines in relatively cold climates without pre-heating air intake, faster cranking, or mixing varying fractions of gasoline according to climate. Cold cranking in cold climates is the primary reason ethanol fuel is blended with any gasoline fraction."
So seasonal blend plus your storage issues. FWIW - I run straight methanol and between races (about 2~4 weeks) I make sure the fuel cell is full and the carb empty, plus WD-40 treat the bowls, needle/seat assemblies and pump shooters. After season, I pump everything dry, put some 110 in the tank and a gas carb on the motor and run it a bit to clear the lines. 110 will keep in the car all winter, no problem. Unused methanol goes back in the drum and the drum sealed up tight. This is also done after every race. Thursday before the race I pump into the jugs, when we get home any left over goes right back into the drum. When the season starts up again, methanol will "clean" the 3.5 gallon fuel cell and fill the 100 micron fuel filter with "cotton". Usually rotate the filter out after two races, then again after two races, then it's good for the balance of the year. Unless we have a super wet spring like this year, then it was every two until the end of May.