FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 64PI on February 22, 2019, 10:15:17 AM
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Looking for others input on what they are running for a fuel system on their drag cars. I'm currently running a Holley blue, 8AN line with a in line filter, Holley regulator set @ 7psi to a pro systems 1000cfm carb on a victor. The engine is a 451" stroked 390 with CNC edelbrocks from BarryR, .700" lift solid cam with duration around 265-270@.050. I cannot get any color on my plugs going through the traps no matter how much jet I throw at it. I've check and found no vacuum leaks. The car goes 11.14 @ 118mph. The car is a '64 galaxie weighing about 3650 with me in it. C4 trans with a 5500 stall converter. 4.20 gears and 29" tall hoosiers. It goes 1.50 in the 60' and high 6's in the 1/8. It seems like I'm loosing something on the top end and I believe it to be fuel related. I have good color on the Autolite race plugs cruising to the track @ 3500-4000 rpm. I'm going to be tearing the fuel system apart and sending the carb back to pro systems for a check up. Any thoughts are appreciated. I'd like to get things figured out and make it to the Reunion and try and get a 10.90 out of the car. Thanks..Fred
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Is it actually nosing over or are the plug colors the only concern? Some sort of A/F reader and accompanying logging device might be the ticket if you want to get some usable/helpful data.
Great lift shot there. Love the lines of a 64 hardtop. JB
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I'd say its a combo of plug color and top end performance. I will dig out my time slips when I get home so I actually have numbers to compare 1/8 vs. 1/4 mph and times. I should look into some sort of A/F reader and a way to log the info.. I've tried going up in fuel pressure, raising float levels to going up 8 jet sizes with no change to the plugs or et/mph. Fred.
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Did the car ever run in the 10s? Myself, I think you have it wrung out pretty good.
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The car has never seen a 10... I'm hopeful with my fuel situation situated I can squeak it in. I believe there is more left in it... especially with running 11.14@ 118 while going lean on the big end. Or maybe I'm just dreaming....
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Sounds to me that you are running into frontal area vs gear ratio at speed. You either need more horsepower, or more gear to push the car through the air. I ran 4.57 gears in my Mach I with FE for 10.90s, and 5.13s with sbf. That Pro Systems carb should have been close out of the box. If you still have 7 psi going through the traps, you do not have a fuel delivery problem. Joe-JDC
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Beaver is notoriously slower than other tracks because it is slightly up hill. Used to be .2 slower than Maple Grove or .1 than Numedia.
Don't know if that still holds true. I think you have a great running car and those tenths are hard to find and expensive, but keep on looking. Be great if you could find another 2 or 300 pounds to lose.
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Sounds to me that you are running into frontal area vs gear ratio at speed. You either need more horsepower, or more gear to push the car through the air. I ran 4.57 gears in my Mach I with FE for 10.90s, and 5.13s with sbf. That Pro Systems carb should have been close out of the box. If you still have 7 psi going through the traps, you do not have a fuel delivery problem. Joe-JDC
That is a good point, Joe. I am possibly trying to tune in time that isn't even there. I have had my hands on the pro systems for a few years now so I could have sent that right out to lunch. I also need to cowl mount my fuel pressure gauge so I can check it at speed. I am setting the pressure off the gauge under the hood and at idle.
As far as slow tracks that's all I have been running on. I run at ESTA dragstrip in Cicero, NY. Its up hill and against the wind.
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Run it, get outta the car immediatley after the run and pop the fuel tank cap. If you hear a 'whoosh', bad or non-existant tank venting. That or blue-tape the cap with some strategically palced holes so it's NOT tight,make your run and see what happens.
Ask me how I know this.............
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The odd thing is color on the plugs driving there, but clean at WOT even with more jet
Is this anything funny like an aerosol carb, or do you have jet extensions that could be holding the float back and not opening the needle/seat all the way?
ET is what it is, but odd if plug color and/or trap speed isn't changing with jets
When able, post the carb design, LIST # if appropriate, booster design, front/rear PVs and max jet sizes you have tried
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I also need to cowl mount my fuel pressure gauge so I can check it at speed. I am setting the pressure off the gauge under the hood and at idle.
I have in a few cases rigged up something to hold my phone taking a video to witness something that is otherwise not accessible. Gorilla tape and zip ties can do amazing things.
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The carb is a Pro form 4150 1000hp series carb with Venom2 metering blocks. Jet extenders in the rear and stepped high signal .156 boosters. I have ran the car at the track with this combo 2 different times and I will share the info for each so this might get lengthy.
#1. With M/T Drag radials. 1.54. 60’. 7.08 1/8@96mph and 11.18@118mph.
Started with 84/92 jets and worked all the way to 90/98 with no color change or change in Mph. Tried adjusting fuel pressure and float heights and no change. Also a 6.5 PV in front.
#2 Hoosier slicks. 1.50 60’. 7.03 1/8 @ 96.8 mph and 11.14@118.67mph. All improvements in time due to the slicks. Now here’s where it gets funny. This time I blocked the PV off. Squared the jets up at 94 amd still clean plugs on the top end. Don’t ask why i did this I had a hair brained idea.
I can accept the fact it’s not going to gain any ET. But not being able to get color on the plugs is concerning to me. I have the fuel cell vented with also.
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The carb is a Pro form 4150 1000hp series carb with Venom2 metering blocks. Jet extenders in the rear and stepped high signal .156 boosters. I have ran the car at the track with this combo 2 different times and I will share the info for each so this might get lengthy.
#1. With M/T Drag radials. 1.54. 60’. 7.08 1/8@96mph and 11.18@118mph.
Started with 84/92 jets and worked all the way to 90/98 with no color change or change in Mph. Tried adjusting fuel pressure and float heights and no change. Also a 6.5 PV in front.
#2 Hoosier slicks. 1.50 60’. 7.03 1/8 @ 96.8 mph and 11.14@118.67mph. All improvements in time due to the slicks. Now here’s where it gets funny. This time I blocked the PV off. Squared the jets up at 94 amd still clean plugs on the top end. Don’t ask why i did this I had a hair brained idea.
I can accept the fact it’s not going to gain any ET. But not being able to get color on the plugs is concerning to me. I have the fuel cell vented with also.
Well since its a 64 Gal I will try to Gonkulate it anyway. Guessing 2-1/8 open headers? Cold air to the carb or underhood? Is it turning the water pump (& fan?) All that stuff would affect trap speed.
What about wind, what is a typical headwind for those timeslips? I always check cuz a 5mph headwind will cost you about 1mph trap speed. Depends on the aero of the car, etc.
But first guess - rule of thumb I use is, your 1/8 MPH should be 80% of your 1/4 MPH. Yours is right in there, within 1mph or so anyway.
What about a fuel pressure gage then video it running down the track?
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What fuel are you using? May not read like you expect. Joe-JDC
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I’m running Sunoco 93 octane. 10% ethanol. It leaves “normal” color on the plugs cruising 3500-4000. I’m running 2 1/8” cross over headers into 3.5” straight through dynomax mufflers. Exhaust ends before the axle. No air filter at the track. Running a water pump, fan and alternator off the engine. Compression is 11:1. Cam specs are .700” lift int/ex. 266/274@ .050 108lsa installed at 104ICL. Cnc edelbrocks from Barry and a port matched victor. I would guess average wind speed to be 2-5mph. Aerodynamics of the Bismarck. I am definitely mounting a fuel pressure gauge on the cowl before the next track visit. Fred
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You either need more horsepower, or....
This answers 99% of the questions on the forum ;D ;D
I'll let the others give serious suggestions, but it sure is very odd to not have a MPH change with that wide of a jetting change. Could you "borrow" a similarly set up carb from a fellow racer, just for comparison? I'm sure somebody would be willing to do that. At least it would let you know for sure if it was the carb itself.
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I am definitely mounting a fuel pressure gauge on the cowl before the next track visit. Fred
Good idea but even that may not show a tank vacuum at the end of a run.
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Just a hunch, but if you can borrow a gasket matched Edelbrock RPM, you may find the added torque to keep pulling on the top end with those gears. Have you tried a shorter tire? Joe-JDC
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What is the rpm going through the lights downtrack?
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The RPM question is important - you might just be running out of motor versus aero.
You read plug color way up into the plug - not out at the tip - especially on any sort of unleaded fuel.
Still should be reactive to that gross of a jetting change - even if its "wrong".
Sounds like a fuel restriction upstream of the carb or in the metering blocks.
JDC might have something with the RPM versus Victor depending on the RPM range. The RPM will be better everywhere below torque peak and often for several hundred beyond it.
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Had sort of the same thing, wasnt sure if it was fuel or to much gear. Went from 4.11 to 3.70 with a 26 inch tire
pulls hard all the way through. Im running the same times and weight 3-400 lbs less than you so sounds to me like she is running good. I always thought that the MSD runs so hot that it was hard to get a good read on the plugs in general. Maybe thats why they read the same no matter what jets you are running.
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My .03 worth is I think you have some good power to run that kind of ET and agree the MPH seems off. By a bunch in my opinion and I'd think you should see at least 5-6 more on the top end. The plug readings also seem off but I don't think you're running out of fuel. Any time I've had that happen the car stutters or just noses over. You can also burn the ground straps off the plugs or hole a piston. Someone who REALLY knows how to read plugs would be helpful but there's a lot of good info online.
A couple things I can think that would cause the low MPH is valve float or convertor slip. Otherwise, nice ET's for a boat and I think once your problems are sorted out a 10 is in your future.
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The converter flashes to 5000-5200 area on launch. I shift around 7200-7500 and trap rpm is around 6800 on a 29” tire. A little higher with a 28”. I’ve had several people look at plugs with me and agree it’s strange not to see any changes with the jet change.
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Okay, I'm not an auto guy but think you're shifting too high and not going through the lights high enough. Without knowing the limits of your engine I doubt it's making any power anywhere near where you change gears. Normally the shift point is somewhat lower than trap RPM. I'd like to see you shift at 6400 and run whatever it needs at the stripe.
As for the plugs, I'm also no expert there either and agree that you "should" see some change given what's been tried. My point was that a good plug reader can tell you a lot more than a casual glance. I've been through the so called plug reading experts only to get conflicting results. Much can be told with a proper magnifying tool and look at the burn line on the ground strap. Also as previously mention, some fuels just don't give the reading you'd expect. The 10% ethanol may or may not affect what you're seeing.
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Have to agree with "posi67.." - the RPM band "feels pretty high" but car performance trumps feelings every time. I think its only 3 or 4 mph light, but it could just be aero pushing back against the converter slippage too. It would be educational to have driveshaft RPM data to plot against engine RPM to see what's going on. Did this package get on dyno or are we developing the combination in car?
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I have no dyno results. Im still developing this set up. It’s been a 12 year long progression from the car running low 13’s with a mild 390. To low 12s with a 390 with angle cut heads and a 294s. To where we are today. The converter came from Edge and it’s based off all the information I gave him. I could very well be shifting too high and never tried shifting below 7k. I’m by far no expert and appreciate your guys help. I’m working on building another dedicated drag car so I can start getting more track time. I guess I set my expectations a little on the high side for this set up. But I’m still going to have pro systems check the carb out and I’m going to make sure I have nothing wonky going on in the fuel system. I should also invest in a plug reader. I still can be proud to say I have a street driven pump gas low 11 galaxie! Thanks. Fred.
https://www.facebook.com/VromanSpeedShop/videos/10155066592063479/ Here’s a video of the car running with drag radials
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Although it won't show the effects of the launch on the carb, may be good to get it on a chassis dyno.
FWIW, stabbing in the dark, but still hung up on the fact that: With the fuel you run, when on the street operating in the primaries, you get some color on the plugs, when WOT on the track, you don't and jetting hasn't changed it
I do agree that fuel supply overall could be an issue, but may need to get more precise than just fuel line pressure, although the easy stuff should be checked first.
If your secondary bowl only is running dry, or more likely, can't keep up, it could do what you describe. I'd look close at the dual feed line, filter if there is one, machining on the inlet of the bowl, needle, seat, float operation and even check if the jets are too far back and being inhibited by the bowl
If all that is good, maybe a secondary metering issue, but seems like jet would always add more fuel unless a passage is partially blocked
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To me listening to the video it doesn’t sound like he’s shifting to high or running out of motor at the top end, so it must be the way the car feels to him while driving. I can’t hear anything from video except (NICE RIDE)!!!!.
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Ok, here goes. If you are using 4.20 gears and going through the lights at 6800, but shift at 72-7500, you need 4.57 gears to get you to your shift point in the traps. That will pull the car harder on the top end. At 7200 you need 4.44 gears, at 7500 you need 4.63 gears, all else being equal. Joe-JDC
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I wonder what kind of 60’ improvement I would see with a gear change.
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Maybe a little but then maybe nothing. Depends on how much of a change among about a dozen other things. I went down from a 4.86 to a 4.57 to kill off some top end RPM and my ET's stayed the same. I'd try shifting earlier and see if you pick up a few MPH. More top speed will obviously up the RPM in the lights.
Nothing worse than too much rear gear and running out of RPM or power at 1000'. It's just hard on parts for zero gain. You could also try a shorter rear tire to get a lower rear ratio although that isn't much. I have both a 29" tire and a 28" that are different brands. The shorter tire 60's better (because it hooks) and the taller tire seems to pick up about 1 MPH. ET's generally stay the same.
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I've read the posts and my question, looking at Pro Systems sheet what Hi speed jets are in it? I'm guessing a 32, try going to 28s or this much richer from what it has, then go back to your original jets the car liked best from your earlier runs. Go out and make a couple pass'es with new plugs at the end of pass shut it down, have your plug wrench with you and look, plugs will have color and you'll find a few MPH too! Patricks carbs come close, but that little adjustment should do the trick. IMO it's not fuel pressure or fuel system problem, gear or running out of engine. Good Luck Al
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I don’t think your mph is that that far off if at all for the ET. Couple years ago when I borrowed a 454 inch stroker combo for a few weeks in my truck with a trans brake and mid-low 1.5 60fts, 4.57 gears, 31 tall tire, my then 4000lb F100 ran a best of 11.37 @ 116 mph. If memory serves it was running 6100-6200 in the traps. Just a 3/8 line to the carter M6905 pump and then double -8 lines to 1000 cfm Holley. I’m also in the process of upgrading my fuel supply system, bigger line, electric pump plus the mechanical. I’m also surprised you did an 8 jet swing and didn’t see any MPH/ET change. Just another reference point for you. I would also vote for shifting a little lower and maybe add a little gear.
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Throw that Blue out in the field. Get a 140 GPH pump - either a Holley black or Aeromotive, Magnafuel, etc. Put in a return style system with the regulator on the return leg from the carb feed. Blues are sucky pumps, especially in a dead-head type configuration. The regulators aren't much to talk about either. IMHO if you are running below 7s in the 1/8 and don't have neat $1K in your fuel system you are cheesing it out. Even our 7.50 car has a return system and we never have any fuel delivery issues. You WILL have issues with a dead head system. It's been seen on the dyno - the fluctuations in the regulator stop/start hit the needle/seat combo and promote fuel foaming in the bowls.
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My .02, I tried to skim through the pages of info so far.
Seems the shift rpm is way up there? Have you tried lowering to 6500-7000 and see if it picks up(1/8 or 1/4)? Your ET and MPH isn't too far out of whack math wise.
You are very close to my set up, sorta. I've got a 462, with hand ported Eboks, .63 flat tappet, tunnelwedge w/2 1850's. Made 625 @6500. It's 4000# with me. I have 4.56 gears, 29.5" M/T. Typical hi 1.4's(1.50 on greasy track). Have been 1.41 on really good track. I leave around 5000, shift at 6500, trap 6500.
I run comparable numbers, 11.0's @ 120-121 and 6.9's @ 97.
I have a 140 mallory with return line. I agree, dead head systems are not optimal for what you are trying to do. I used to have a return system with a Holley blue, but that pump failed too many times and I switched to Mallory.
If you didn't pick up jetting it up that much, then it's not getting enough fuel?
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I also think you may be shifting a bit too high. We fiddled around with shift RPM on our '64 Fairlane for what seemed like a whole season, changed shift points, changed rears gears. This was a 482 so it had the same crank as yours, probably about the same kind of power too. What we ended up finding is it really liked the rpm band right around 5600-6400. Started with a 4.56 rear gear and settled on a 3.91. When starting out we thought that it needed to be spun high and really ripped on to make a good pass but what we ended up was a lot more conservative and it ran faster. In hindsight it would have paid for itself in gear changes just to put the engine on the dyno to see what it liked. That car ran consistent 11.10's up here in Denver altitude.
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That is some good info. I've never though about needing to run a return line but it makes sense. I will have to do some research on how to set it up and what fuel pump/regulator I want to run. Does anyone have any experience with the Pro Systems fuel pump and regulator?
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Do you run a stock tank or fuel cell? That will come into play on getting enough fuel also.
I ran my stock tank for years, but put fittings in the back for pickup. The return I just put a fitting in the front by the sending unit. The wagon tank is tall, wide box, unlike a sedan which is a flat box of sorts. I would recommend installing a sump in the rear if you haven't already.
Do you have 1/2" line now? I just ran a second 1/2" line for my return. Big? Ya, but it is not a restriction. Been that way for nearly 20 yrs. I have a Mallory return style regulator. It has a vacuum port to cut the pressure at idle(high vacuum), but don't use it.
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I'm running a fuel cell with foam. It has 2 AN fittings out the rear of the sump and one vent line out of the top. I am only using the one outlet on the sump now. Would I be safe to use the other fitting as the return side? I'm not sure if having the return that close to the pickup would cause an issue. I do know you want the return below the fuel level. And I am running 8AN line now the whole way.
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You want the return back and away from the feed port to reduce the chance of sucking foamed fuel into the line. Most fuel cells should have two fittings on the top, at least all the off-the-shelf aluminum ones I have used do. One for vent that you top with a roll over check valve and vent line, the other for return.
X3 on the Mallory units, have two. I've never had a fuel issue with #8 lines on the door cars. The dragster runs methanol, so that's #10 from the cell/A1000 pump and #8 back to the tank. Lotsa volume.