FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: happystang on January 31, 2019, 02:10:50 AM
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Hi everyone,
I'm getting ready to order an oil pump for my 428, it's a very mild build with a hydraulic roller cam and Harland Sharps shaft rocker setup. I'll be using a Canton oil pan and windage tray, effectively making the oil capacity 8 quarts including the filter. The oil modifications have already been done on the block where the oil filter adapter bolts on (using the CJ style adapter) and all the oil galleys have been tapped for screw in plugs. I'm also using completely stock Edelbrock Performer RPM heads and intake. The car will see occasional spirited driving, but by no means will be beat on at a track (okay, MAYBE a few times).
With that being said, what oil pump should I use? Standard pressure/standard volume? High pressure standard/standard volume? High pressure/high volume? I currently have my eyes on this oil pump:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-224-43365a/overview/make/ford
Also, should I be running the oil restrictors in the heads even with the Harland Sharps rockers?
http://store.survivalmotorsports.com/oilreforedhe.html
This is unfortunately a rebuild of my 428 as the #4 rod bearing failed, we attributed the failure to some kind of contamination or foreign debris getting sucked into the oil pump. Poor thing only lived for about 200 miles.
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I would run the HV pump. It gives a bit more pressure at idle. What you didn't tell us is if you're using ford iron heads or not. If you are using Ford heads I use a Holley 70 jet. I am running rollers with Precision oil pump's Billet stands and end stands and HD shafts. There is plenty of oil on the top end, even with the restrictions.
-Keith
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I typically go against the grain on street builds and either run a Melling M57 or M57 with a spring in it. I feel that the HV pump isn’t really necessary in a lot of builds. I also don’t restrict on street builds.
I have dyno videos with clear valve covers with the above combination, there is no top end flooding running factory non-adjustable rocker arms. As a matter of fact, the oil level just gets up to the bottoms of the valve springs on a 6000 rpm dyno pull. Oil pressure will get to 65-70 psi at WOT, which is more than enough.
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Brent:
How do so many account for low oil pressure, especially at idle? I have always worked the block a bit and made sure my bearing clearances were correct.
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I see about 25-30 at idle with a standard volume pump.
The engine that I mentioned having the video of, was a 445. It had .0025-.0026" on the mains, .0023-.0024 on the rods, .005" crank thrust clearance, .005" cam thrust clearance, and .017" rod side clearances. Standard volume, standard pressure Melling pump. Hydraulic roller.
I personally don't see the need for extremely high oil pressure on most engines, nor do I spend a lot of time on the block work. The oil pump feed hole gets blended, the holes in the bearing saddles get blended, and that's about it.
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The M57-B pump is standard volume with a little higher pressure spring and is what I have been using. Hot oil pressure is never outstanding though. I suspect worn lifter bores on old blocks as the internal "leak".
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I always use the high volume pump, but not the high pressure pump. I think the high volume pump provides a safety margin that the standard volume pump may not. If for example you crack a rocker shaft, you will have an oil leak in the system. My theory is that the high volume pump will be able to pump enough oil to overcome that leak, but a standard volume pump may not. No way to test the theory, unfortunately. Or, in a worse case scenario, you overrev the engine and spin a bearing, or bend a pushrod so that a lifter pops out of the bore, developing an even worse oil leak. Again I think a high volume pump may save the rest of the engine.
Also, I always like to restrict oil to the top end, using a 0.070" restrictor hole in the oil passage in each head. I think this is especially important if you don't use the oil drainback tins under the rocker arms like the factory did, or if you have an intake manifold like a Victor that doesn't drain back well up in the pushrod area. The rockers don't need a whole bunch of oil, and anything you can do to keep oil in the oil pan is a plus, in my opinion. You hear a lot of people claiming that you absolutely have to have a larger volume oil pan than stock, that a high volume pump will pump the pan dry, etc. I've got 40 years of experience with running stock pans and high volume pumps that says those comments are BS, as long as you restrict oil to the rockers and use 6 quarts of oil in the system, plus a windage tray in the pan. Not to say that a higher volume pan isn't a good thing, because it is, especially on a higher HP engine. But for most folks, the stock pan, stock windage tray, six quarts of oil and restricting the oil holes in the heads will eliminate any oiling problems.
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Here's what I saw with clear valve covers....
Obviously, I was chasing another problem altogether that prompted the disassembly, repair, and reassembly of this engine, but the valve covers allowed me to see what happens on a WOT dyno pull. Standard pump, no restrictors, no drip tins.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfhEuGwkYb8
On that dyno pull, I also have data that shows oil pressure going up throughout the pull, all the way to peak, so there was no issue with pumping oil out of the pan.
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I see about 25-30 at idle with a standard volume pump.
The engine that I mentioned having the video of, was a 445. It had .0025-.0026" on the mains, .0023-.0024 on the rods, .005" crank thrust clearance, .005" cam thrust clearance, and .017" rod side clearances. Standard volume, standard pressure Melling pump. Hydraulic roller.
I personally don't see the need for extremely high oil pressure on most engines, nor do I spend a lot of time on the block work. The oil pump feed hole gets blended, the holes in the bearing saddles get blended, and that's about it.
The 351C in the dragster has 55 psi @ 6800 and feels just fine. Agree on the high pressure, my 351C motors with similar clearances run 25~30 hot, 60 at x RPM. It's not pressure so much as volume. If you can keep the bearings fed even at 5 psi, it'll run. I prefer the MElling HV pumps and deburr the pump body, blend the path from the pump into the filter and back into the oil gallery. Also take time to make sure the galleries are clear and scrubbed clean before assembly.
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Oil "pressure" should be described as "back pressure" . I , like Brent , use a standard volume pump with a high pressure relief spring. The spring alone doesn't mean you will see super high pressures , it simply raises the the point where the pump goes into bypass. If the pump is turning , oil is flowing 25-35 psi at idle and 60-70 at 5,000 up means the pump is still pumping more than the engine can take in. It is important to note that high volume pumps have higher pressure relief springs. They HAVE to because there is as much volume at idle as there is and 2,000- 2,500 with a standard pump. IF it had a standard spring , the pump would be in constant bypass mode. It is "my" opinion and personal experience that if the oil pressure is a constant 60 ( whatever number) and doesn't change , you have too much pump volume. YES bearing clearances and oil passage diameters have an effect on oil pressure . More "leaks" = lower pressure on the gauge , but again oil IS flowing. Higher oil pressure does have an effect on the "hydro dynamic wedge" at higher rpm. One must be careful when listening to "Smokey Yunick quotes" as a Chevrolet ( spur gear pump) is FAR different than the gerotor pumps used in Fords. MANY years ago Melling ( at Ford's request) made a spur gear pump for an FE and it was a DISASTER as it could not supply enough oil to maintain oil pressure.
Many guys use a high volume pump for what they call "insurance". Engines still fail with HV pumps.
These are Just My Personal Opinions and others have theirs for their own reasons. Don't shoot me please.
Randy
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Thank you everyone for the suggestions. It sounds like I'll be ordering the restrictors for my Edelbrock heads along with a Melling M-57hv pump. I'm planning on getting this unit from Precision Oil Pumps:
http://stores.precisionoilpumps.com/blueprinted-melling-ford-fe-high-volume-1-4-pump/
Comments? Suggestions?
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I actually did what Jay and Brent recommended. The main saddles were chamfered, as was the block side of the adapter. The passage from the adapter to the oil pump was enlarged, as was the oil pump hole. All gallery plugs were threaded and use pipe plugs. I am running a FFP moly pump drive and a Precision Oil Pumps HV blueprinted pump with the Boss 302 oil pick up and Holley #70 jets as restrictors to the rocker assemblies and a Cobra T-sump aluminum pan. I have good oil pressure across the RPM range. 30- 80 PSI and that with Brad Penn straight 30 wt.
I should have a more than adequate oiling system.
-Keith
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I looked down (briefly) at 7000 rpm and 135 mph once, and saw 90+ psi on my Autometer mechanical gauge. I don't know how accurate it is, but that seems like a lot. On the other hand I like the extra flow at idle, especially in 100+ outside temps. For whatever that is worth. :)
paulie
edit: forgot to mention this is with a Melling M57HV, "normal" oiling mods, and .090" restrictors in the heads.
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I like the idea of the insurance of using a HV pump. I like the presision Oil Pump blueprinted HV that Doug sells. My argument is if you're not bleeding off more than the pump puts out you'll have pressure but bleed more than the pumps capacity, say worn rockers or big bearing or clearances basically anyplace and you might be bleeding off more than a standard pump, If I had to do it over again I wouldn't have tried blending number 1 bearing oil hole since it's closes to the pump and the first place to bleed. I'm not a racer but I don' hear to many haven problems with 1 & 5 rod bearings like you do 4 & 8, why, farther away from pump and all those bleeders ahead of them. I'm still a little skidish about rocker restrictions. I know .070 seems to gets posted a lot and it might be ok at 6K or so but most of us live in stop and go traffic and are in the 800 or a grand neighbor hood and don't know how much oil is going up hill to the front of the rocker shafts, so I use .100. I use steel shim head gaskets and they have .186 in them. I need to have them fancy clear VC like Brent has to see for myself....JMO
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z0Ghg8dQ/IMG-0290.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/Z0Ghg8dQ)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pprqD4rb/IMG-0382.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/pprqD4rb)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXdV0Js6/IMG-0374.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/MXdV0Js6)
(https://i.postimg.cc/KKSMcGYN/IMG-0322.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/KKSMcGYN)
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Brent, love the video.
On my first 428 years ago, I would get 65 to 70 getting on it, come down to 25 just driving, but only 15 to 20 warn at idle.
I never had a issues because of it, but what was happening ?
I had all the Canton products. Iron heads with Erson rockers and all performance touch's.
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My daily driver F100 has the factory low pressure pump. Lol
I think it makes 2psi at hot idle. I figure that is one more than I need.
My car runs a HV pump.
I like to play with the clear covers as well. They are cool.
https://youtu.be/iT1tFlJXZ18
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I never liked the Erson or any needle bearing fulcrum rockers for reason that they don't seal to the sides. And are the shafts hardened for those needles? Seems they would start to imprint on the shafts otherwise.
My advise would be to restrict way down on them, maybe .050. They might be good foe eeeking out another horse or two but for around town and some longevity I'd stay with standard close bore on some nice shafts.....JMO
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I believe the OP mentioned he was using Ed heads, in which case the holley jets will not work. What I did on my Ed heads, was tap the holes for 12-28 set screws. The 3/16" hole will work for that tap size, as is.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25tKRjM5/20170917-160557.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/FfjZ0v9t)
(https://i.postimg.cc/50FkxdWS/20170917-160439.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hzc0rYjX)
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I use HV oil pumps. I am not sure there is insurance per se, but they push no more up to the top than a standard oil pump with the same spring. What I like is the increased hot idle oil pressure and/or ability to run a bit thinner oil at the same hot idle pressure
Pressure is resistance to flow, and regardless which set of gears are in the pump, total volume to the galley is the same if the relief spring is the same. The HV just dumps more at full gallop, which of course could lead to foaming, but I haven't seen it
That being said, the M57HV does have a slightly higher pressure spring in it. Not as much as the high pressure pump, but truth in advertising, so theoretically it pushes slightly more to the top
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M57B. Surprised no one has mentioned this pump. Not in the catalogs anymore, but available. I just bought ten of them. Best of both worlds. They all need a blueprint job to remove burrs. I also machine the top of the bolt flange around the bolt holes parallel to the block mating surface. They are not flat there, and need to be.
Restriction depends on use, and rockers used. Sometimes with new shafts and new rockers, no restriction, other times with some needle bearing stuff and drag-only use, as little as .028 restriction. It depends on the situation. Top oiling blocks need more attention on this than sideoilers. You can only get "so much" around the groove in the cam anyway, and they have priority main oiling first.
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M57B. Surprised no one has mentioned this pump. Not in the catalogs anymore, but available. I just bought ten of them. Best of both worlds. They all need a blueprint job to remove burrs. I also machine the top of the bolt flange around the bolt holes parallel to the block mating surface. They are not flat there, and need to be.
Restriction depends on use, and rockers used. Sometimes with new shafts and new rockers, no restriction, other times with some needle bearing stuff and drag-only use, as little as .028 restriction. It depends on the situation. Top oiling blocks need more attention on this than sideoilers. You can only get "so much" around the groove in the cam anyway, and they have priority main oiling first.
Yep, that's what I was referring to on the first page when I said, "M57 with a spring". I like those pumps.
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I use a hv pump with a pink 100 lb spring from the old ford racing parts book still have some left.I have run this set up for years with good luck ford made springs for most engines back in old days.
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OK 4 pages back I asked a question on the stock aluminum 427 oil pump. Again I ask what's the feeling on using one in a 427tunnel port and what can be done to improve it. I have a couple of OEMs in the boxes I found yrs ago.
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OK 4 pages back I asked a question on the stock aluminum 427 oil pump. Again I ask what's the feeling on using one in a 427tunnel port and what can be done to improve it. I have a couple of OEMs in the boxes I found yrs ago.
Personally I wouldn't use an aluminum bodied pump due to the excessive expansion rate of aluminum over iron. Yes, I know Ford used aluminum pumps in all FE engines since the beginning and there was generally no problems but if you compare the 2 types I think you'll find less hot pressure bleed-off with an iron pump than that of the alum... I did, swapped a stock alum. pump with a std. pressure and volume iron pump [Melling M 57] in a low mileage 390 and picked up 15 lbs [45 lbs to 60 lbs, hot running] and about 5 lbs more at idle. Cold pressure was the same between the 2.