FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: FirstEliminator on January 21, 2019, 01:03:43 AM
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Hey guys,
On the box it says something like "Ready to Bolt On". I have the feeling this isn't entirely true. Looking around you-tube searching for cylinder head work I've found several videos that talk about new cylinder heads needing a valve job out of the box due to guide to seat concentricity being pretty far out. It's been said the Edelbrocks at least need a good cleaning before installation.
So, I have the box fresh heads. A Winona PH2000 seat and guide machine with cutters, arbors etc. Various Sunnen measuring tools. A couple years ago I was hot on the subject for quite a bit. Then it sat idle as I was into other things. Anyway, time to blow off the dust and make something happen. Is there any advice/recommendations to touch-up these Edelbrock heads without using the words "send them to someone else" ? Valve or seat angles, clean up here or there in the bowl and port or any info would be appreciated. The engine these are going on is a mildly peppy street engine.
thanks,
Mark
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My Ebrocks had a pretty sad valve job, the seat was not concentric to the guide, meaning the valves were slightly off center, and obviously wouldn't seal. The constant side loading of the valve head as it hit the seat off center could have caused a valve to break at worst, increased guide wear at minimum. The actual valve job was crude as well, been a long time but think we picked up 10-15cfm at lower lifts just with a professional valve job. Take a look at valve to guide clearance as well, mine were on the tight side.
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Why the h... is Edelbrock continuing to sell
heads with bad valvejobs and thight guides
seems like it have been known to man for years
that they have a lousy valvejob. Had no one
complained? total lack of QC?
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If your using the small valve head edelbrock 2.09 intake , order bare and install 2.15 intake valve as they will match the seat way better than 2.09's , a tip from Blair Patrick for my local machine shop to perform when I upgraded my 1999 ebrocks heads to 11/32 intake stem , my local guy commented on how nice it matched up with the 2.15 intakes per Blair's advice
edit to add , check out the oil returns and modify as needed , my heads valve cover rail bolt boss is extremely close to a couple Valve Spring so I clearenced my heads around the boss to give the oil a little more room to return away from the valve spring
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if i was buying a set after what i learned from the last set, in addition to the above statements, i would put thread inserts into the intake threads and open up the drainback holes.
and check the locations of the intake holes too.......mass production has a little to be desired when there is a lack of QC.
to the statement of "hasn't anyone complained"? the answer is of course people have complained, but if their experience was anything like mine, edelbrock
cops an attitude and makes statements like "thats impossible" "because we are edelbrock sir"
edelbrock is no different than any other aftermarket manufacturer.....you have to trust nothing and check everything
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In addition to the above, the production cutters only go about an inch inside the ports, and often leave a significant step where they transition to as-cast. a few minutes in each hole with a tootsie-roll will be well worth your while.
KS
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Awesome, thanks for the info so far. I will let you guys know what I find with this set.
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A new in box current Edelbrock head has addressed the drainback issue a long time ago - assuming you use an equally current intake gasket and manifold. The valve job that comes on them is generally functional although simplistic. The springs are similar - rather stiff (for a flat tappet) single springs with a damper, combined with a stamped steel spring locator and non-viton seals. Having installed many of them on budget oriented builds and subsequently run them on dyno I can say that they are a decent usable alternative to old iron at a very fair price. I can also say that they do leave plenty of opportunity for significant improvements at a fairly modest cost.
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From a general cleanup perspective, I find the Edelbrocks have remaining sharp edges within the chambers...edge of the quench pad and around the spark plug hole. In general, not good practice for eliminating potential hot spots that could induce preignition. My last set even had one chamber on one head that missed the deburring op altogether. Usually, they just have an edge break, but this one was as-machined...just one chamber.
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>edelbrock is no different than any other aftermarket manufacturer.....you have to trust nothing and check everything
Key statement, quoted for truth. The thing you don't check is the one that bites you.
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I don't particularly like the springs, and they tend to be pretty stout.
The last two sets I used, I swapped springs on one, the other was a favor to get a guy running at his house, we slapped them on and they ran great
As others said, they aren't fancy, but haven't seen junk either
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So far, what I found with the heads is I don't have a 3/8 pilot for my seat and guide machine. It's ordered and will be here Friday. Then I can check concentricity.
Progress so far is the 482 crank, rods and pistons are installed in a now clean block. Hoping to have it done and in the car for Beaver Springs.
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With 3/8 valve stems I had ordered .375 and .376 pilots. Neither fit, they were both too big. I measured the E-head valve stem and it measures .371. I measured some stock valves and they were also .371 which caught me a little off guard. Then got the .374 and .373. I don't see a .372 listed, but the .373 works. I started taking measurements of the heads. When putting a strait edge across the tops of the stems most of the exhaust valve stems are lower than the intakes. Some by as much as .030". Shouldn't all stem tips be the same height? I was planning to use nonadjustable rockers. Will a .030 difference in stem height require different push rod lengths?
I measured for concentricity and got a valve seat height gauge to compare seats to deck surface. Here are a couple pics of the heads with the measurements. I did not measure the guides yet. I feel like I should get the concentricity numbers lower. Ford recommends .0015". I think that's going to be tough with the old S&G machine I'm using. As suggested above I will be putting bigger intake valves in. Hopefully the exhausts can get corrected by touching the seats only a little bit.
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I hate to sink a valve to get a tip right, how about a lash cap if you need to make up the difference after you swap intakes?
Regardless, a fresh valve job, new intakes, and a touch up here and there will likely change all your measurements anyway, but I just hate to cut material away
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I like the idea of a lash cap!
If I am cutting the seats a few thousandths to get the seat heights similar, I don't believe that is a big deal. The worst one was .009 above the lowest on the exhaust seats. Not sure if I should bother with the .004. The 6's and 9's I will attempt to correct.
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I like the idea of a lash cap!
If I am cutting the seats a few thousandths to get the seat heights similar, I don't believe that is a big deal. The worst one was .009 above the lowest on the exhaust seats. Not sure if I should bother with the .004. The 6's and 9's I will attempt to correct.
I agree completely, a little rubbing doesn't hurt anything, but .030 is what caught my eye. Hopefully you can match them up with the intake valve swap and it won't take any special work. Sure shows how the mass produced stuff has a range of "good 'nuff"
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I've been doing a little work to the E-heads. Picked-up a set of 2.19 intake valves from Brent. got the 3/8" pilots and and valve seat height gauge. I trimmed the exhaust seats to get them all at the same height and improved the concentricity. Also, I had scribed the cylinder shape of the head gasket to unshroud the valves. The 482 was boarderline of too high compression so adding a little volume to the chamber would help keep it in the safe zone even if the unshrouding didn't do anything for flow. I started working on the intake seats and there was quite a big of material to remove. The cutter lift a long 60 degree angle and hefty ridge at below that. Today I ordered a 75 degree cutter with a radius at bottom. I think this will work good to initially blend the long 60 degree into the bowl, then finish by hand.
Here is a question. I read about there being a venturi shape below the seat which helps low-lift flow. From what I was reading this ID of the throat should be about 83-85% of the valve diameter. Looking at these E-heads out of the box it seems like there is not much for venturi or any reduced throat ID. It's as if you are lifting the lid off a barrel when the valve opens. Going with the 83% formula using the bigger 2.19 valve the cutter is still a ways away from touching the ID below the seat.
So far so good, other than needing to replace one intake seat because I cut to far. Of course Edelbrock uses non standard seat dimensions. Luckily they had a few on the shelf that I bought today. With 2-day air they should be here Wednesday.
In this pic, the really wide angle is the 60 degree, then a ridge below that. I'm wondering how narrow to make the 60 and smooth out the ridge? About the same as the 45 and 30? Or keep it longer? Not yet sure what to do in this area.