FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: bartlett on October 07, 2012, 12:08:18 AM
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today I took my car into a local hotrod exhaust shop and left there a little sticker shocked and maybe suckered alittle ..
He talked me into mandrel bent system with magnaflow mufflers and flanges so it can be taken off and on for $1,000 out the door....
I went in with the thought of going with my like new flowmaster 10 series mufflers and 2 1/2" pipe with a crossover . figured $300-400 max to get that done ... He quoted me $700 for crushed pipe to get that done ....
He was very sturn about not using the flowmasters because they suck after 300hp,and how much hp I would lose blah blah blah ....
IS 1,000 for a header back system with a cross over,flanges,02bung ,magnaflows, over the axle and dropped out pointed down by the rear fenders/bumper fair?? or crazy ? Its with 2 1/2 14 gauge pipe....
Sitting at home with the car there, I keep thinking $1000 for 20ft of pipe and a few welds ????? uhhgggg
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I got a quote from a shop that does a lot of local Shelby club work about 6 weeks ago before I pulled my motor. Estimate I got was $650 out the door for 2.5" aluminized stainless all the way to the rear bumper with a set of Flowmasters. $550 for 2.25". I was actually planning on switching to Magnaflow's or something similar myself on interior noise recommendations alone from My427stang.
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Depends a lot on the area your in and what local labor goes for, as in major markest the rates are high (overhead + labor I should say). A grand doesn't seem way out of line, especially if they actually did mandrel bend all the pipe sections.
That said, I have Hooker's off-the-shelf madrel bent 2.5" pipes on my '70 Stang (muffler thru to the rear valence panel) and they were less than $200 IIRC. Add in Hooker's bolt-on 3.5" header collectors, Hooker's H-pipe kit, two old school Flowmasters and some straight 2.5" sections (H-pipe to front of mufflers) and I think it's about $400 in materials alone. And that was done some years ago; prices for all the pieces are higher today I'm sure.
One more thing; he did b.s. you on the 300+ hp drop off. One trick when I'm confronted by this kind of, ahem, "salemanship" is to ask what range of mufflers does he most often sell? The likely answer is Borla, usually the most expensive brand and only Borla!
Btw, a few good muffler tests are on the 'Net...I'll see if I can find one in my long its of Favorites and post it here. One of the dyno tests (think it was 15+ mufflers) showed only a 2-3 hp and 3-4 lbs/ft torque among all the leading suppliers!
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Two muffler comparions:
http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/showthread.php?t=193545
Sorry, but one will need to click down the page aways to get to the good stuff. The first chart of cfm flow is now pretty old (over 10 years IIRC) doesn't show any Boral stuff, but clearly identifies Hooker's Max Flow as the best flowing at the time.
That said, the next chart shows a 370 hp SBF undergoing a variety of muffler dyno tests. Note the very small differences in both hp and torque, especially at high rpms where a poor flowing system would show up. One really needs a full race type muffler (think; loud!) for over 500 hp if one doesn't want to run open headers.
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Are you able to weld? If so, you can just buy the mufflers and the pipe, including mandrel bent U bends or J bends, and cut and fit the exhaust system yourself. Not only will you save some money, but you'll learn a new skill doing it.
If you can't weld, why not take this opportunity to learn? It isn't that tough. You can probably get set up with an oxy-acetylene torch setup for around $400, so you should be able to get the torch setup plus all the materials you need for the exhaust system for less than the $1000 you were quoted. Then you'll have the torch for any future requirements.
I rationalize new tool purchases like this all the time ;D
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X2 with Jay's thinking, Although I would be thinking electric welder.
The hardest part of building your own system is cutting the pipe.
You will need a saw. A hacksaw will not do. Your arm will give up. LOL
And a cheap ass welder if you don't have one.
For a 1000 bucks you can buy a welder and a saw and all the parts you need to make your own.
When your ready for another try at it you will think: I can do better than those hacks.
A lot of people think you must have lots of money, you have a Kool old cars.
They don't think about all the years it took to collect the junk. :P
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I run Borla Pro XS on my 489, they run good and got rid of the horrible drone I had from Flowmasters prior to the swap. After the swap I was surprised to feel more power everywhere, it was win/win for me
I recommend that you go mandrel bent and anything but Flowmasters. I like Pro XS, but Magnaflow or Hooker Max Flow all use the same design and will work great.
I'd also recommend you build your own, buying pieces isnt that expensive, and I'd even consider 3 inch with your build. I run three inch duals on all of mine, including my truck.
As far as mig versus torch, I wholeheartedly recommend using a torch first if you are learning to weld. Once you learn to manage heat, you can weld with any other type of welder. plus you have a torch for heating stuck things later :)
Another option would be to take a welding course if you do not know how to weld, and buy a cheap Mig and chop saw, it's easy to learn and you can build something very nice
...or of course you could pay the bill and pick it up at the end of the day, there is something good about that too!
I would consider 3 inch though for a hot stroker FE if it is doable and then hold him to very high standards. I think the cost isn;t unreasonable, it'll take a full day to do it all, he is adding flanges to section it so you can drop it, and I assume the x-pipe and mufflers are included?
It's not cheap, but the guy has to make money and if its nice, it'll only be uncomfortable to you once.
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Thanks guy's , now I feel worse ! I consider myself to be a pretty good fabricator. I Have a set of torches,I have a cut off saw, I have a miller 210 .. :'( I realy thought about buying the flowmaster x pipe do it your self kit. Probly should have done that. Kinda to late now. I shook his hand and told him to get it done. I know he started working on it already. Told me it would be tuesday before its done. IM not sure why but I was alittle intimidated to buy a universal type kit and have it not work out. The part I was worried about is the over the axle area. I do like that he is going over the axle into the rear wheel well and dropping it down twards the ground right at bumper height. (you wont realy see the pipe)
I am sure I would not have thought about adding flanges, I like it can be removed. Im going to bite the bullet this time. Next project Ill try it myself..... ;) maybe ....
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Not trying to pimp a shop here so if this is a forum foul LMK and I'll happily delete. But I found the Borla Pro XS here: http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/borla-borla-pro-xs-40352/ (http://www.streetsideauto.com/p/borla-borla-pro-xs-40352/) for $70 + shipping. Lowest I've seen it.
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Kind of vague on the discription but from what Ive leaned (by ear) is where the exhaust pipe terminates and where it is aimed make all the difference in the world. Aiming exhausts at the pavement can make a hell of a mess as the sound waves bounce back off the pavement and hit the underside of the car making a hell of a racket inside. I also found (by ear) that getting the exhaust tip beyond the car's shell is important. I have a strong feeling sound waves don't go out of the pipe like a sawed off shotgun but rather like a mist nozzle that spreads wide freaking instantly out of the pipe - meaning if the body-shell of car is in close proximity to the ex-tip it can reverb and make a hell of a lot of noise in the car. If the pipe extends beyond the shell a just couple inches the reverb does not work on the shell like a drum. I put extensions on the exhaust tips to just clear the shell and the sound inside the car went to way less then half the noise inside the car. The car was my 300ZX and I had Ford Racing Borla Fox Body Mustang GT mufflers (picked up at clearence sale) on the rear. Getting the exhaust termination beyond the rear valence did the trick.
The part I was worried about is the over the axle area. I do like that he is going over axle into rear wheel well and dropping it down towards ground @ bumper height. (you wont realy see the pipe)
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I have to agree with BB here.
The pipes should run out past the rear of the car for the most noise suppression inside the car. What's behind you does not matter. lol
Dumping into the wheelwell is like dumping into an echo chamber.
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they dont dump into the wheel well , the pipes bend up the well and drop out the rear bumper area and point about 3-6 feet back of the rear bumper.... Ill post pics when done ...
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Kind of vague on the discription but from what Ive leaned (by ear) is where the exhaust pipe terminates and where it is aimed make all the difference in the world. Aiming exhausts at the pavement can make a hell of a mess as the sound waves bounce back off the pavement and hit the underside of the car making a hell of a racket inside. I also found (by ear) that getting the exhaust tip beyond the car's shell is important. I have a strong feeling sound waves don't go out of the pipe like a sawed off shotgun but rather like a mist nozzle that spreads wide freaking instantly out of the pipe - meaning if the body-shell of car is in close proximity to the ex-tip it can reverb and make a hell of a lot of noise in the car. If the pipe extends beyond the shell a just couple inches the reverb does not work on the shell like a drum. I put extensions on the exhaust tips to just clear the shell and the sound inside the car went to way less then half the noise inside the car. The car was my 300ZX and I had Ford Racing Borla Fox Body Mustang GT mufflers (picked up at clearence sale) on the rear. Getting the exhaust termination beyond the rear valence did the trick.
The part I was worried about is the over the axle area. I do like that he is going over axle into rear wheel well and dropping it down towards ground @ bumper height. (you wont realy see the pipe)
Correct in theory and certainly not wrong that a outlet under the car will reverb more than one out back, but don't blame the exits alone, Flowmasters do resonate
Matter of fact, in my experience the SAME exhaust design with just a muffler swap made a dramatic difference.
I wont use a Flow anymore, the difference between an absorption muffler and a reflective muffler, which even Flowmaster calls "resonant technology", is night and day
The sound reflective mufflers change the noise into mechanical energy and heat. That mechanical energy at some point will resonate the case. Ironically I could live with the mufflers on a 433 inch motor, 3.70s and a 4 speed, when I went 489 inch and changed the gearing, I couldn't even think, because it put the resonance in a load/rpm situation that was right where I drove
Absorption mufflers don't do that, however, they potentially wont last as long either.
As far as paying the guy bartlett, nothing wrong with that. I am a long time mechanic/bodyman, did it professionally for 1/2 my life, and I elected to pay someone to do the paint on my truck. Sometimes you can't do everything, and if that dual exhaust is done right, you chose a good path
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There are a lot of factors that effect how much sound is in the car.
A small comparison is my Fairlane and Mustang.
The Fairlane has sound mat and a nice full interior and is very comfy.
Even with open headers as it it now (set up for some track time) it's really not that loud inside. Relatively speaking. LOL
The Mustang (when last out) was a basic shell with a piece of carpet and two little seats and just the minimum interior. LOUD inside!
It sounds like your sitting in a steel drum and there's 8 guys pounding on it with sledge hammers. :P
The Mustang when it comes back out in version 5.1.1, will probably be even louder. ::)
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You are certainly correct!
I just get very specific when it comes to resonance, it doesn't come out of a tail pipe, it comes from the body of the muffler itself.
So the sound I am looking to control could have tailpipes 3 blocks behind you on a trailer, and the mufflers under the floor would still boom at a certain rpm/load/volume.
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Has anyone used a Helmholtz resonator? I've heard of them being used with success to eliminate drone, but I have no idea how to spec them, I'm definitely interested in learning more... From what I understand, they're a blind pipe of specific diameter and length (dependent on drone frequency and system volume) attached to the system to dampen the acoustic resonance of the system.
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My $0.02. A grand isn't a bad price for a full mandrel system that is servicable. You get what you pay for with exhaust systems. A $500 exhaust unfortunately anymore is going to suck. We've all been down this road before trying to save money and the first time you try to pull the system off you'll get to enjoy cutting it up or swearing for several hours. My vote is to do it yourself with pre-bent mandrel pipes or pony up the money for the full mandrel system.
A word of advice, tell the shop you want to inspect the system when it is tacked in place, not fully welded and that you demand it be on the lift in the air when you come to pick it up so you can inspect their work. Most shady shops will either not do this or refuse to "for insurance reasons", and if so find another shop.
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Has anyone used a Helmholtz resonator? I've heard of them being used with success to eliminate drone, but I have no idea how to spec them, I'm definitely interested in learning more... From what I understand, they're a blind pipe of specific diameter and length (dependent on drone frequency and system volume) attached to the system to dampen the acoustic resonance of the system.
I have not, but in theory you should be able to fix it. The issue i have is, Flowmasters cost the same or more than other mufflers, make a little less power, and then you have to do something like that to boot?
Much easier to buy a muffler that doesnt drone LOL
FWIW the F100 has the 3 inch 3 chamber Deltaflows off the Mustang, I figured I wouldn't hear them under the bed, but my guess is you'll see a set of Borlas under the truck at some point too.
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Geez...........am I the only guy around running Cherry Bombs...?
I just could never get used to..........well......mufflers........
Burnt out Glass Packs are the only way to go....Rrrraaaaaaapp....pop..pop.....pop......pop pop pop......pp.....p...pop..............p..
Along that line, anyone out there remember Purple Hornies ? Those were the absolute best......
......sounding,, anyway.....IMO... .........ie .......LOUD!
Also .. IMO ..the absolute worst sounding muffler of all time was the "Golden Goose".......
It literally sounded like a goose call .........
Now, you really go way back if you remember that name.......of course, not as far as Smithy's ...but that's another story....
M
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I love Cherry Bombs! A pair of Cherry Bombs was my very first hot rodding purchase back in April of 1976 LOL! Hacked off the factory exhaust halfway back and hung the Cherry Bombs on there. They hung down so low they led to my second hot rodding purchase, Gabriel Hi-Jackers ;D
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Gabriels, Cherry Bombs and Purple Hornies......LMAO! Hey we should come up with a list of old speed stuff, shops, brand names, etc.
Whatver happened to:
-SuperShops?
-Ansen mag wheels?
-STP?
-Sunoco 260? I miss that great smell!
-Thrush mufflers?
-Splitfire spark plugs?
Ideas?
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;D ;D Gabriel highjackers was standard equipment around here
and longer shackles.CalCustom Valvecovers . Pos.A.Traction torquetwisters.
and Formula1 superstock.Tires.....Lee manhandler.Jetson revenger
Sorry for HIGHJACKING the tread
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Just stopped by the muffler shop again today to tell him I'd probably be in soon. The guy agreed that the Flowmasters do have a lot of interior noise/resonance. Asked him for his opinion on Borla vs. Magnaflow, he says go Magnaflow. The only differnce on his original quote of $650 for 2.5" all the way to the rear bumper would be any difference in the price of the Flowmaster and Magnaflow which overall is nominal.
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got my car back tonight , Im 1g lighter but WOW he did a great job and it looks cool .. Its all tucked up real good and all the flanges are sweet ! I can take off each side without removing the tail pipes or both sides and leave the tail pipes on .. Pretty cool IMO ... He hooked up my wideband 02 also ... ;D
Its idling at 10:1 driving at 13.5 or so and 15s when I nail it ... Looks like I have some tuning to do ... That scares me being it is STUPID fast as it is .... It pulls like a train untill 3,5/4 g and then it hits another world ! Above 4g it feels like the car wants me in the back seat and the rearend to rip off the car ! :o
The bad : The car is vibrating to much for my liking, The motor mounts I got are like a solid poly mount. very rigid. What are you guys with HP running for mounts ... I broke to stockers with my low hp motor ....
;D ;D ;D
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Toss up a few pics if you get a chance.. I'd love to see it.
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I always run stock mounts, and put an engine movement limiter strap in place to keep the engine from torquing over too much. Seems to save the mounts, too...
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Jay: engine movement limiter strap
Can you hook me up with a picture ? I might be switching back to stock mounts and a strap ... I want to try a couple of things first. My mounts came with a washer on each side of the poly. Im thinking this might be making them Real solid insted of poly dampend.
I just cringe thinking of changing mounts...... :'( :'( there a major pain ....
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p.s. Ill be putting the car up on stands soon , So I will grab some pic's ....