FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jayb on December 05, 2018, 11:18:15 PM
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Once again this year FE Power is exhibiting its products at the Performance Racing Industry show. Prior to this year's show Barry R and I talked about getting our two booths set up next to each to provide a sort of hub for the FE faithful. We worked with the PRI folks and were able to make this happen. This year we made it into the main convention hall; my booth is #4355, and Survival Motorsports is right next door. Should be lots of fun hanging out with Barry and Marc during the show:
(https://i.postimg.cc/15GhT8FM/2018-PRI01.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
I've been spending most of my time over the last few months working on my cylinder head project. Because of the substantial changes I've made to the basic head design, its not just a head project; it involves the intake adapter, three different intake manifolds, and a whole new rocker arm system. I'm please to report that the head design is basically finished, after some significant modifications from the previous iteration. The water jacket design was an extremely challenging part of this work, and took me 3-4 weeks all by itself. Also, in addition to the basic head design, I have designed the sand cores required to get the heads cast, and I expect to have the first two prototype castings at the end of January (In fact it should be sooner, but with the holiday shutdowns at the foundries and core shops I'm hedging my bets on the date).
I fully expect the first prototype heads to have some unanticipated problems, but having the first couple of prototypes will allow me to get the machining programs dialed in, even if there are problems. And any required design revisions go a lot faster than a ground up design, plus the foundry I'm working with on these heads has been pretty quick on the turnaround, so I'm hopeful that I can have some heads to run on an engine by this spring.
Of course in addition to the heads, I'm been working on intakes. The intake adapter has already been designed and manufactured; it uses my basic high riser and tunnel port casting, but has a different port configuration that either of those. It also has a valve cover rail that matches the heads, and is actually higher than a high riser valve cover rail, but uses the same valve cover rail angle as a medium riser. For manifold tops I've designed a billet 2X4 intake, a single 4 Dominator flange intake, and the new design shown in 3D printed form in the photo below, an individual runner crossram style intake. This intake is designed for street applications, and is EFI only. One of the design constraints was to keep it under the hood of a 67-70 Mustang (because I want to put this setup on MY car ;-)). Right now a stock distributor won't fit, but I'm considering machining a special distributor just for this setup. Otherwise, individual coil packs can be used. In any case this will have to be a crank trigger setup, because any new distributor will have to be low enough to clear the runners and this will make it difficult to fit a triggering or advance mechanism into the distributor. As shown, the intake will not allow the hood to shut on my 68 Mustang; the front four ram tube bells hit one of the supports in the hood. However, a smaller bell on the ram tube will solve this problem. I also have to move the injector mounts down a little, so that the fuel rails will clear the hood at the front. But other than that, this intake system will fit. Imagine popping the hood on your car to see something like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJYQMG2K/2018-PRI02.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Also towards the back of the photo above you can see part of the 3D printed single 4 manifold that will also work with the intake adapter and these heads.
Lastly, I have the rocker arm system finalized and the machined prototypes can be seen at the bottom of the photo above, bolted onto the 3D printed cylinder head. The rocker system uses a very sturdy steel bar, that bolts into the cylinder head itself, and also bolts into some special nuts that are used on the head studs. Stock ARP FE head studs are used. Bolting the bar into both the flat part of the head and into the head stud locations provides two different angles of attachment, which I think will be very strong and secure.
The rockers are in pairs, and on four individual rocker shafts. The shafts are pinned to the heads, and steel caps bolt over the shafts to hold them securely in position. Oiling is through the pushrods. The intake ports on the heads are straight in like a tunnel port head, rather than hooking in like a normal FE wedge head, so the intake rocker has a very large offset in order for the pushrod to clear the intake port without having to go through the port like a tunnel port pushrod does. Valves are very long, over 6", and use a 5/16" stem. The rockers themselves have needle bearing fulcrums and are machined of hardened 7075 aluminum for strength and longevity.
The cylinder head design has changed somewhat over the last few months, mostly to accommodate the requirements of the water jacket constraints, but also to improve the chamber. The primary difference is the spark plug location; my original design placed the plug close to the stock FE location, but to get the chamber the way I wanted it I had to move the plug so that it was more underneath the port. This gives the plug a more central location in the chamber and gets the electrode in a better position. The picture below shows the exhaust side of the head and the plug location:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXr5T0CT/2018-PRI03.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The next photo shows the intake side of the head. The ports are just slightly larger than a stock medium riser port in this 3D printed head, but I plan to do two port versions, one with a smaller port that can be run as-is or ported by someone else, and one with full CNC machining done on the ports, like the 3D printed version. I've tried to leave enough aluminum around the port so that they could be opened up even more if necessary, but the CNC ported version should be good for 850+ HP right off the shelf, so for most folks that should be plenty big. As mentioned previously, initial tests on the 3D printed head showed an intake flow of 405 cfm at 0.700" lift. This flow comes from the fact that the ports are raised a full 1.5" over a stock medium riser port location, and they are also straightened out rather than hooking in towards the cylinder wall. In addition, the valves on the heads have been moved to a better location for flow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3BVD37M/2018-PRI04.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Next are a few photos of the rest of the display, for those who can't attend the show. Since my valve covers finally became available I've been able to produce quite a few different varieties, as shown in the photo below. Also, my tests over the summer of the baffle system on my clear valve covers have proven relatively successful, so I will be making those available soon. Also note the one picture below with two valve covers; on the CJ style valve cover at the bottom, you can see the spot for the screw-in cap, and the aluminum underneath that forms the baffle. The top valve cover is not easy to see, but it is my first pentroof style clear valve cover. I just got the first one successfully vacuum formed this past Sunday, after at least 15 tries. But I think I have the secret now, and if I am able to get the pentroof style clear valve covers vacuum formed reliably, I will make those available soon as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKT1tPMr/2018-PRI05-A.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbbwRKFK/2018-PRI06.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jx7Km6h/2018-PRI07.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yzGjwC0/2018-PRI08.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
If you happen to be planning a trip to PRI, please stop by the booth and say hi. It's always great to put a face with the forum logins on this site, and of course PRI is a great place to talk about existing and new projects.
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Cool Beans , I hope your coming to the FE Race and Reunion again this year look forward to seeing you and the Cool Parts !
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Wow, that's some really nice stuff!! Looking forward to getting a pair of those clear CJ covers.
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Really cool to see you and Barry set up next to each other, that is a lot of FE coolness in one spot! Also awesome to see that development work continues on the venerable FE. I wish I had a project I could justify buying that top end for because that is just plain cool! Sadly, all I currently have for FE powered vehicles are old trucks. And not cool hot rod shorty drag trucks either.
That IR EFI setup is super trick, especially getting it to fit in your car.
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Jay,I gotta report that the clear covers are holding up quite nicely on my 427 in the truck. I got a lot of comments from both traditional rodders and the ricer crowd that have seen them this past summer. I didn`t get to my regular venues, but word is getting out that I`m running them. Now if I could just get a clear cap to fit the Unilite it would be really impressive in there!
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Jay, if I may ask, have you determined a final chamber volume for the heads ?
Cant wait to possibly see a head at the reunion. Great looking stuff, I have no doubt once sorted out it's all gonna perform excellant..
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Chamber volume is in the 65-68 cc range - Jay
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Yes, yes I can imagine opening my hood and seeing that beautiful intake.
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All outstanding pieces Jay! The real stars though are the 2 new heads. The straight valve FE head is truly your own however with all the changes you've made.
Maybe it's now a....JFE head! ;D
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Jay,
If that’s a weiand tunnel ram fitted to your adapter?
could you possibly run a tape over it, if you have time.
I am interested in china wall to the carby face.
Total mounted height.
I would love to run that setup, but need to try keep within the laws of my state.
Thanks for all your FE bits and great posts with lots of facts.
Allways a great and interesting read.
Thanks
Joel
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Don't think that I'm trying to be negative, I'm just wondering about some possible issues.
1: With the exhaust ports aimed directly out, they would aim squarely at a shock tower. Have you determined if they would be usable in a tower car? Being the ports are cut back, they may be, but not sure. Plugs could be a real PITA to get at however. On a non-tower or tube chassis car, certainly not an issue.
2: With such a big offset rocker, wouldn't that place the pushrod at an extreme angle? Would that cause an issue with bending or deflecting? Would it also cause an issue with side-loading the lifter? With a longer valve, a fairly significant increase in rocker mass, plus a huge pushrod to resist deflecting, it seems the weight increase might be a big detriment, and possibly hard to control at the higher RPMs.
Being that the head, adapter, rocker system and I think the intake must all be used together, not to mention a special distributor, or more accurately an oil pump drive; that would be a very expensive route to go. I wouldn't think many people would be willing to drop that much coin on an entire upper end, unless all out performance, in a non-class racing venue was the goal. I suppose somebody could make their own intake, only requiring the heads, rocker system and adapter to be used as a package.
Like I said, I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture. The pieces look awesome, just not usable for the average FE guy. Any chance to see a shot of the combustion chamber?
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Questions:
1) Will the crossram only work with your new heads' port configuration?
2) Will you provide a stub shaft in place of the distributor to drive the oil pump?
3) could the injectors (and fuel rails) be mounted in the valley area, on the lower side of the runners (to reduce installed height)?
4) would some sort of vacuum chamber connecting the individual runners be useful?
5) can't tell, is there a 'dent' in the driver's side clear valve cover to clear a brake booster?
6) How could ordinary people visit PRI --- Friday first thing hypothetically?
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Jay, I won't be making it this year as I had anticipated. I believe John Bamber is still going to swing by and introduce himself however.
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6) How could ordinary people visit PRI --- Friday first thing hypothetically?
The PRI show is intended for people in the Racing & automotive industry, but they are really loose on that definition, most any kind of business is fine. I believe Jay answered on a previous post, you can register when you get to the show, just have some kind of business card, letterhead, etc. with your name on it. Or if you have a friend with a business.
Here’s the link to the PRI website: http://www.performanceracing.com/tradeshow/
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... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...
The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.
Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.
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I look at it like buying a watch. You can buy a Timex or you can buy a Rolex. The LS is the Timex. Fast & cheap & at least it keeps the youngsters interested in motorsports, a good thing. The FE is the piece that only few will spend big money on. I like having something that is different and is pleasing to look at. Sure Jay won't make millions at this, but I for one am glad there are guys out there making all this stuff & pushing the envelope. Build it and they will come. Where it will be in 25 years is anybody's guess.
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... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...
The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.
Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.
Yeah you’re gonna get beat by Jethro in his turbohoozy but I don’t care. Heck I still roll up my windows with a crank.
And yeah it costs a lot but if you’ve got the scratch why not. I’m done with alimony. ;)
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What a Great display Jay, and effort in getting your projects so close to being ready to start taking orders. How you find time to post on here is amazing....Best of Luck to you! Al
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Great job Jay! We are very fortunate to have you in our corner. I'm guessing by what you have accomplished in a short time frame, blocks will be in the near future.
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... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...
The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.
Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.
I got your block
(https://i.postimg.cc/14hTY7cC/BBM-block.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ZvHVWcQp)
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... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...
The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.
There are 3 blocks (albeit, not always easily available) that can safely take 1000+ horsepower, if built properly. One is probably good to 2000+. Competitively priced is another issue. There will never be enough demand to allow a 'cheap' block. That's just the business side of things. Besides, trying to compare a 60 year old design to a modern design is like comparing a rotary phone to a cell phone. What's the point?
By the way, I still have a rotary phone..lol
I also like crank up windows, Marc ;D
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... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...
The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.
Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.
I got your block
Excellent. I assume it is competitively priced, so I'll send you $2500 for it so I can start building a bumpkin beater. Thanks for the deal!
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... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...
The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.
Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.
Yeah you’re gonna get beat by Jethro in his turbohoozy but I don’t care. Heck I still roll up my windows with a crank.
And yeah it costs a lot but if you’ve got the scratch why not. I’m done with alimony. ;)
Yes, but if 100% of the FE's get hozed by a hoozy, then we are all gonna care because we become irrelevant dinosaurs. At that point, run brackets or do cruise-ins. Not that there's anything wrong with brackets.
Certainly, I hope Jay does well with his new and existing products, despite his myopic dismissal of the vast wealth in the clear distributor cap market.
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... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...
The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.
There are 3 blocks (albeit, not always easily available) that can safely take 1000+ horsepower, if built properly. One is probably good to 2000+. Competitively priced is another issue. There will never be enough demand to allow a 'cheap' block. That's just the business side of things. Besides, trying to compare a 60 year old design to a modern design is like comparing a rotary phone to a cell phone. What's the point?
By the way, I still have a rotary phone..lol
I also like crank up windows, Marc ;D
Basically, I rephrased what you originally said. So there. I have a rotary phone, too. Not connected, but it serves as a reminder of the good old days, when dinosaurs walked the Earth.
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(https://i.postimg.cc/GmK3W8sw/98023-D80-6-BFB-4-D54-AD86-682-DDF09-C20-C.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/RW3zf0RX)
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Jay,
If that’s a weiand tunnel ram fitted to your adapter?
could you possibly run a tape over it, if you have time.
I am interested in china wall to the carby face.
Total mounted height.
I would love to run that setup, but need to try keep within the laws of my state.
Thanks for all your FE bits and great posts with lots of facts.
Allways a great and interesting read.
Thanks
Joel
I've measured that before and I think it is 11.75". If that's not it exactly, it is close to that.
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Anybody notice how thin Jay is getting. Sexy. ;)
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Don't think that I'm trying to be negative, I'm just wondering about some possible issues.
1: With the exhaust ports aimed directly out, they would aim squarely at a shock tower. Have you determined if they would be usable in a tower car? Being the ports are cut back, they may be, but not sure. Plugs could be a real PITA to get at however. On a non-tower or tube chassis car, certainly not an issue.
2: With such a big offset rocker, wouldn't that place the pushrod at an extreme angle? Would that cause an issue with bending or deflecting? Would it also cause an issue with side-loading the lifter? With a longer valve, a fairly significant increase in rocker mass, plus a huge pushrod to resist deflecting, it seems the weight increase might be a big detriment, and possibly hard to control at the higher RPMs.
Being that the head, adapter, rocker system and I think the intake must all be used together, not to mention a special distributor, or more accurately an oil pump drive; that would be a very expensive route to go. I wouldn't think many people would be willing to drop that much coin on an entire upper end, unless all out performance, in a non-class racing venue was the goal. I suppose somebody could make their own intake, only requiring the heads, rocker system and adapter to be used as a package.
Like I said, I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture. The pieces look awesome, just not usable for the average FE guy. Any chance to see a shot of the combustion chamber?
Geez Doug, why do you have to be so negative? ;D ;D
Just kidding, all good questions. To begin with, this head will not work with a stock shock tower car, there is just no room for the headers. However, I believe it will work with shock tower that has been modified by A) Running a coil over shock and removing the factory spring, and B) Cutting back the tower for header clearance. I'm going to be putting these heads on the engine in my 68 Mustang, so I will report on what is required for modifications when I do that. The other thing is that an awful lot of cars are getting the shock towers removed and new front suspensions installed, and of course the heads would work with those installations.
On the pushrod angle, which works out to 7 degrees on this design, have you ever seen a Chrysler hemi valvetrain? Those pushrods are angled way more than mine, and they don't seem to have any problems. I'm not worried about the pushrod angle.
Regarding cost, have you priced out a set of CNC ported heads lately, maybe a set of Pro-ports? You are spending a minimum of $3500 on the heads. Then if you get a good intake, and a T&D race rocker setup, you are up in the same kind of price range as my package will be with the single 4 intake. Add a Hogan intake to the existing parts and compare to my package with a billet intake, and my package may be LESS expensive. Finally, I'm nearly certain that my individual runner intake manifold would be less expensive than a comparable version for an existing FE, so there you would be saving money.
Regarding the distributor, I should have been clearer about this in my original post. A distributor can be used, you just need to have an offset distributor. Or maybe I will build a distributor that just distributes the spark (no pickup or advance mechanism), so it can be lower and will fit, and then rely on a crank trigger for timing and the EFI system for timing control. Lots of ways to skin that cat. My approach would probably be individual coil packs because I like the way that setup works. I've made a few of the oil pump drive setups for people, and have charged $100 to modify a stock distributor, so that is not an obstacle.
Finally, I would say that these pieces are certainly NOT for the average FE guy. These are for the race guys who think an 800 HP engine is not enough. The package should be good for 850 HP out of the box, and over 1000 HP in modified form. I think it also could be used to make a very mildly cammed, docile 650-700 HP engine. In that case you would rely on the heads to get you the power you need, rather than increasing the cam and compression. So the market for these parts is limited, which is fine because I don't have the production capacity to build a whole bunch of heads, intake adapters, intakes, and rocker setups.
I hope that better explains my rationale behind this project. I think the key point is that this setup is not for everybody, but it does fill a hole, as I perceive it anyway, in the FE market.
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Questions:
1) Will the crossram only work with your new heads' port configuration?
2) Will you provide a stub shaft in place of the distributor to drive the oil pump?
3) could the injectors (and fuel rails) be mounted in the valley area, on the lower side of the runners (to reduce installed height)?
4) would some sort of vacuum chamber connecting the individual runners be useful?
5) can't tell, is there a 'dent' in the driver's side clear valve cover to clear a brake booster?
6) How could ordinary people visit PRI --- Friday first thing hypothetically?
1. Yes
2. I can do that, yes.
3. I looked at putting the fuel rails underneath but access to them would be pretty limited, and directing the fuel from underneath is not as good as directing it towards the back of the valve. I haven't abandoned the idea and may go that route in the end if I need the space, but would prefer to keep the fuel rails up top.
4. A vacuum chamber would be required to get a decent MAP signal to the EFI system, and I would build it into the plate of the intake adapter.
5. No dent in the clear valve cover, and I haven't test fit it to see if it would clear. I think there's a reasonably good chance that it will, but don't know for sure.
6. As Kevin mentioned, bring an automotive related business card with your name on it to the PRI show; you can register at the show and get in.
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Jay, I won't be making it this year as I had anticipated. I believe John Bamber is still going to swing by and introduce himself however.
I met John today Mike, we had a nice chat. He sure has a nice 5 axis CNC machine...
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... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...
The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.
Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.
FElony, quit your whining ;) By your standards ANY naturally aspirated FE will get shellacked by a turbo LS. But no turbo LS is going to shellack a turbo FE, running my package and the same boost level. Cubic inches will rule. And as for blocks, going big on HP means an aftermarket block, regardless. I wouldn't be afraid of putting 2000 HP into a BBM or Pond cast iron block, or a Shelby aluminum block. Will the cost be higher for the FE? Of course; FE stands for Freaking Expensive! It helps keep the riff-raff out.
By the way, if you want a clear distributor cap, buy an MSD distributor. They use a GM cap, and you can buy the clear ones from Summit. I ran a clear cap on my 68 Mustang all summer.
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Anybody notice how thin Jay is getting. Sexy. ;)
You're a sick man, Marc. Wait 'til I tell your wife what you said. Wait 'til I tell MY wife...
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I'm with ya Jay..
In the right chassis, the right combo, with what ever power adder one is comfortable with and chooses, and a proper tune, I can see your parts in the future, after some good testing and massaging, pushing the ol dinosaur engine into the low 7's.. who knows, someone with the duckies and some help from the pool of FE engine gooroos they may be a 6 sec FE in the not to distant future..
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Looks like you are having fun and getting things done in your "retirement" Jay. More power to you, keep it going! Who is the guy in the booth (picture that Kevin posted) there with you? Maybe I should know who he is but I do not.
Are your SOHC rockers available for sale? I have a friend who needs a set, maybe two. How many sets have you made?
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That's Kurt Neighbor in the booth, Thor. I really enjoy talking to Kurt, he is very knowledgeable and a really dedicated racer. I learn something new from him every time we talk.
My SOHC rockers are not officially in production yet, but I've had one set on an engine and they worked very well, and have sold three other sets and kept one for myself. I will be building more soon, some with adjusters rather than the roller tip. You or your friend can contact me in January and I will be able to tell you when more will be available.
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... I'm not trying to be negative, just looking at the big picture...
The Big Picture is that if you take this dressed-out FE to the track, you are going to get shellacked by an armada of country bumpkins with junkyard-sourced LS truck engines with eBay turbos jammed into whatever POS they could find. How utterly embarrassing. Jay's parts at their theoretical 850 hp point are going to pretty much jettison any block they are perched on into Alpha Centauri. What's needed, to be relevant today, is a competitively-priced modernized block (and lower components) that can withstand 1500+ turbo hp.
Of course, by the time you've combined all this, you'll be scary close to the cost of a 2019 Mustang GT, just in the engine. In other words, it will never happen. Better off popping out 25,000 clear distributor caps. Maybe translucent blue and red, too. Ginchy. Everybody would buy several.
FElony, quit your whining.
B-b-but then I'll be even more useless than usual :'(
By your standards ANY naturally aspirated FE will get shellacked by a turbo LS. But no turbo LS is going to shellack a turbo FE, running my package and the same boost level.
In theory. No evidence in Reality.
Cubic inches will rule.
Which is why we see so many 545-inch turbo BBF's shecking turbo LS's. Oh. Wait...
And as for blocks, going big on HP means an aftermarket block, regardless. I wouldn't be afraid of putting 2000 HP into a BBM or Pond cast iron block, or a Shelby aluminum block.
In theory. No evidence in Reality.
Will the cost be higher for the FE? Of course; FE stands for Freaking Expensive! It helps keep the riff-raff out.
A blatant untruth, as I am still in the hobby. In theory. No evidence in Reality. I suggest a new t-shirt design. Jay's FE Power --- NOT for the Riff Raff. It'll be a big seller, for sure.
By the way, if you want a clear distributor cap, buy an MSD distributor. They use a GM cap, and you can buy the clear ones from Summit. I ran a clear cap on my 68 Mustang all summer.
Finally, some useful tech info from this forum. It's about time.
Thanks for reiterating my point, at any rate. 8)
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On the pushrod angle, which works out to 7 degrees on this design, have you ever seen a Chrysler hemi valvetrain? Those pushrods are angled way more than mine, and they don't seem to have any problems. I'm not worried about the pushrod angle.
Regarding cost, have you priced out a set of CNC ported heads lately, maybe a set of Pro-ports? You are spending a minimum of $3500 on the heads. Then if you get a good intake, and a T&D race rocker setup, you are up in the same kind of price range as my package will be with the single 4 intake. Add a Hogan intake to the existing parts and compare to my package with a billet intake, and my package may be LESS expensive. Finally, I'm nearly certain that my individual runner intake manifold would be less expensive than a comparable version for an existing FE, so there you would be saving money.
Regarding the distributor, I should have been clearer about this in my original post. A distributor can be used, you just need to have an offset distributor. Or maybe I will build a distributor that just distributes the spark (no pickup or advance mechanism), so it can be lower and will fit, and then rely on a crank trigger for timing and the EFI system for timing control. Lots of ways to skin that cat. My approach would probably be individual coil packs because I like the way that setup works. I've made a few of the oil pump drive setups for people, and have charged $100 to modify a stock distributor, so that is not an obstacle.
Finally, I would say that these pieces are certainly NOT for the average FE guy. These are for the race guys who think an 800 HP engine is not enough. The package should be good for 850 HP out of the box, and over 1000 HP in modified form. I think it also could be used to make a very mildly cammed, docile 650-700 HP engine. In that case you would rely on the heads to get you the power you need, rather than increasing the cam and compression. So the market for these parts is limited, which is fine because I don't have the production capacity to build a whole bunch of heads, intake adapters, intakes, and rocker setups.
I hope that better explains my rationale behind this project. I think the key point is that this setup is not for everybody, but it does fill a hole, as I perceive it anyway, in the FE market.
Why on earth would I look at a Chrysler valvetrain? I try not to even LOOK at Chryslers ;D
Thanks for the answers. All good points that are valid. It's pretty obvious you're not in this for the money, or you'd be making Chrysler or GM products, not parts for the FE, so producing these parts will certainly help the FE maintain some relevancy in the modern muscle car world.
And I'd buy a shirt in a heartbeat that said "Ford FE: Keeping the riff raff out" 8)
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I still have the hots for that 7 second, FE powered 1964 Fairlane that is on this forum somewhere. I don't care what any turbo assisted LS motor does. Why do you think Pro Stock is dying out for NHRA. They are all the same and all Chevy Camaros. I know not an LS motor but all too much the same.
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Boss 9's live with exaggerated pushrod angles, forget the Chrysler.
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it appears to me Jay does not have time to eat , is the reason he is getting thinner , no comment on the sexy part . Great work Jay , thank you .
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Here you go.
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I still have the hots for that 7 second, FE powered 1964 Fairlane that is on this forum somewhere. I don't care what any turbo assisted LS motor does. Why do you think Pro Stock is dying out for NHRA. They are all the same and all Chevy Camaros. I know not an LS motor but all too much the same.
Someone has a 7 sec fairlane on this forum ? ?
Any links ?
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http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=5864.msg65661#msg65661
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Where do i sign up for the T-shirt? ;D
Probably if i hold a tight budget for a while
i can afford it
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If Jay can bring the top end package in close to his price point I think it's a good value even if it isn't something everyone would consider for their build. I'm excited there is still development work happening on the FE's.
I find it amazing that Jay can bring this top end package to market, and if the price target is hit, it's an amazing deal that he can't be making much money on. Limited run foundry stuff is expensive to start with, plus with issues machining, bad castings, etc. you've gotta be doing it for the love of FE!
If I didn't already have more half built stuff than I can shake 2 barns at I'd pre-order a package, throw it on one of my clapped out dent-sides and go surprise all those LS pickup guys.
LS engines are easy to make power with, but it's easy and you don't have to worry too much about your tuneup because it lunch it's guts you can buy another one for 500 bucks at every local corner wrecking yard or used car lot. The reason I think even specialty stuff like Jays new parts will always have a market is not everyone is interested in the easy way out. Although I don't have anything as cool as most of the guys on this forum, I like FE's because it takes some thought to build a good one, it's not just a simple matter of ordering a list of parts from you favorite magazine article.
There is a very real, very dedicated following for engines that's aren't a turbo LS or Slopar, etc and some of them don't make near the power an FE does. Scalded Dog speed parts and similar companies still sell a LOT (comparatively) of high dollar hipo parts for A and B model Ford 4 cyl flat heads. Per HP cost is on the order of magnitudes more than Jay's new stuff. The now out of production (again) Riley 2-port head was around 5k and with supported parts that got you 100ish HP.
In 2014 I helped a friend put together a hybrid A/B and when the head got ordered I believe the batch our came out of was around the 700 unit mark and I'm SURE they're is less demand for a Riley 2 port than there is for HiPo FE's parts.
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http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=5864.msg65661#msg65661
Yeah, that's a really nice car. Looked it over at the reunion. I'd love to see them get it into the 7's.
Based off the 1/8th mile times that's been made known so far it's for sure a good strong mid 8 sec car. Maybe once its sorted out some low 8's or a dip I to the 7's could be possible.
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Good looking parts there Jay.
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Wow, what a great effort Jay, that cross ram combination is going to haunt me....
When you first proposed these heads, My father was pushing hard for me to wait and buy a set. I countered that they are not really a great fit for my application, and a "stock" style head was better suited for my needs. But you had to go and show me a cross ram intake and a set of ports that would make any LS guy jealous......
So now ill be wondering what a "mildish" 520ci motor would be like with those heads.....
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Did you have a good/profitable/interesting time?
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Soon there will be more FE heads available than Hallmark Christmas movies.
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Well. we now know who the boss is at your house.
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Just got back. It was a great show, much better than last year primarily because my booth was next to Barry's, and it was in the main convention hall. Last year we had a lot of browsers, this year there were quite a few more serious people. Plus there was a lot of interest from other companies at the show. I had a great talk with the guy from Buddy Bar; wouldn't it be cool to cast some of my parts there, and have them display the Buddy Bar logo? I think that would be awesome.
Got some great ideas on how to solve some existing design and production problems, and of course there was a bunch of interest in the new head package. Overall a very worthwhile show.
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Awesome, Ryan had a good time also.
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“ I had a great talk with the guy from Buddy Bar; wouldn't it be cool to cast some of my parts there, and have them display the Buddy Bar logo?”
= more SoCal trips?
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It would be cool to having castings done at Buddy Bar! It's amazing what has come out of there over the years. But really as long as you're able to bring those top end kits to market with good castings I don't care who casts them (as long as it isn't from used Saturn fenders by a 9 year old Chinese kid).
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Hmmh! Maybe a trip to Edelbrock's Callyfornia headquarters is in order? Can't hurt......
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I actually tried to get Edelbrock involved in casting my intake adapters when I first got started with them five years ago. I had several conversations with the foundry manager, who seemed interested in doing the work. However, I wanted to have a non-disclosure agreement in place before I sent over my design files for them to look at; I didn't want them to steal the idea. The foundry manager had to have "Corporate" Edelbrock sign the agreement. We waited for weeks to get that done, but it never happened. Finally I just gave up and went elsewhere for my castings. I think the foundry guy would have done it, and I would have loved to have Edelbrock cast my intake adapters, but the suits never came through. Last time I'll deal with those guys...
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And as for blocks, going big on HP means an aftermarket block, regardless. I wouldn't be afraid of putting 2000 HP into a BBM or Pond cast iron block, or a Shelby aluminum block.
In theory. No evidence in Reality.
I would say in most cases - yes. Big HP means aftermarket block, especially Ford. Stroker 8.2 deck blocks split through the mains at 500 HP or less, 351C blocks split cylinders at same, 351W 9.5 deck can do maybe 100 HP more but same-same, etc. I'm pushing 575 or so on the dragster 351C with a stock block, it's only a matter of time.
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Well thanks to Jay, Barry, and Robert Pond, FE doesn't stand for Fossil Engine anymore.
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I can vouch for the new svelte version of Jay. Pretty impressive since I had not seen him in about a yr. I think the fact that his big brain has sucked up a lot of stored body energy while creating new FE parts has something to do with it.. Although I did notice chicken and salad have replaced burger and fries in his diet.. Beer consumption remains flat lol
I want to thank Jay and Kevin for letting me tag along to Indy and bask in the reflected glow coming from the FE Power booth. I talked to quite a few people coming by. Usually at trade shows you get the lookers and talkers that want to tell you about their 900 horse Chivvies. Almost everyone I talked to was serious about FE Performance.. I would not be surprised if Jay sold 6-10 World Domination top end kits from the contacts at the show. His stuff is first rate quality and engineering and everyone recognizes it.
The PRI show is sensory overload. After a while it just becomes a blur so if you go, you really need to pick out a few areas of interest and spend time there.. Otherwise you will become mesmerized by the countless LSs. Each one claiming more hp than the last and the sea of perfect paint job scrubs that are pushed on and off the trailers.
That said, every gear head and car nut should attend at least once..
Thanks again Jay,,, RB
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It was great to have you along Royce, to mind the store when I was out running around, and especially when we had to take down the booth. I don't know if just Kevin and I could have done it, because the cops were insisting that one person had to stay with the vehicle at all times, which would have meant one person packing up the whole booth. Would've taken forever. I hope you can make it next year. If not, I may have to recruit the drunk monkey... ;D ;D
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i can vouch for the police requiring one person at the truck.
Marc and I had to tag team that deal for a dozen runs from booth to curb with the hand truck.....wore me out pretty good...
it was great seeing all you guys - having an "FE Central" helped us both out in terms of traffic
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I caught up with Barry at the AERA dinner. I was SO busy in my booth I wasn't able to get by and see Jay's latest stuff. I had LOTS of FE inquiries this year. It was a great show and I'll be on the same corner next year!
Randy
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I want to take this moment to thank Jay for the heads-up about the MSD clear distributor cap. I installed one last night on my 428, chugged a bottle of Jack Daniels, and had an absolutely fantabulous time watching the little rotor chingie go round and round making cute little sparkies. Mesmerizing. After about an hour, I needed a change of pace. So, I threw tire chocks under the rears (safety first!), put the C6 into reverse, and watched the rotor chingie go around clockwise instead. Amazing!
During this experience I realized yet another opportunity that Jay missed. Yep, those intake adapters should be clear, too. Imagine throwing a bunch of brightly colored plastic balls into the oil galley and watching them bounce all over the place!!! Oh yassss!!! I thought I really need to get clear valve covers with this to highlight the upsies and downsies of Brent's soon-to-be-available neon-colored rocker arms. Ginchy!!
I KNOW I had another idea about this time, but evidently my "safety first" mantra did not include me opening the garage door while the engine was running, and I kinda forgot what it was. I also forgot my name and birth date, but I am confident that another bottle of Jack Daniels will help.
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Obviously, you were delusional when you saw the rotor turn clockwise. Oh wait, you are always delusional, aren't you? Silly me, thinking the Jack and CO had something to do with it... ;D
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Obviously, you were delusional when you saw the rotor turn clockwise.
It ain't funny if you gotta explain it, buzzkill.
Oh wait, you are always delusional, aren't you? Silly me, thinking the Jack and CO had something to do with it... ;D
The world's most insightful and inciteful are often deemed delu... wait just a damn minute, are you trying to tell me that Brent isn't going to make neon rockers?
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Obviously, you were delusional when you saw the rotor turn clockwise.
It ain't funny if you gotta explain it, buzzkill.
Oh wait, you are always delusional, aren't you? Silly me, thinking the Jack and CO had something to do with it... ;D
The world's most insightful and inciteful are often deemed delu... wait just a damn minute, are you trying to tell me that Brent isn't going to make neon rockers?
Hot pink only.
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"Clearspark" distributor caps have been around for years. M/T used to sell them in the '60s. The trouble was the polycarbonate material yellowed fairly quickly and then turned brown.
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What we really need are clear FE heads. Jay should be able to 3d print them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_WVRi3KEP4
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Obviously, you were delusional when you saw the rotor turn clockwise.
It ain't funny if you gotta explain it, buzzkill.
Oh wait, you are always delusional, aren't you? Silly me, thinking the Jack and CO had something to do with it... ;D
The world's most insightful and inciteful are often deemed delu... wait just a damn minute, are you trying to tell me that Brent isn't going to make neon rockers?
Hot pink only.
It's a step in the right direction. I'm in for a set.
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"Clearspark" distributor caps have been around for years. M/T used to sell them in the '60s. The trouble was the polycarbonate material yellowed fairly quickly and then turned brown.
Yep. Just think how far chemical technology has come since then. The future is clear. So hard to convince some people.
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What we really need are clear FE heads. Jay should be able to 3d print them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_WVRi3KEP4
Just think. In reverse gear we can watch the mixture fire right after the exhaust valve closes.
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If there clear, then a finger port mite be in order to see turbulence? Duration may not be that friendly thou.