FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: FEDER on November 27, 2018, 11:10:29 PM
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I have a neighbor that has a Beautiful 1958 Ford Fairlane 500 2 door Hardtop. While talking to Him He says it has the interceptor motor in it. I want to go look and see what this sticker looks like. He says it’s the original,one. The car has 40 K on it and is really a nice car. My question is what was the availability and differences between the 332 and the 352. I kinda thought from poor memory the 332 was the interceptor motor. Did they come in both solid and hyd lifter ? Was the interceptor a police motor only or could be had in any car. 58 was the beginning so how about a little history refresher.
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According to Wikipedia:
Introduced in 1958 as part of the Interceptor line of Ford V8 engines, the Ford 352 of 351.9 cu in (5.8 L) actual displacement was the replacement for the Lincoln Y-block. It is a stroked 332 with 3.5 inches (88.90 mm) stroke and a 4 inches (101.60 mm) bore, and was rated from 208 bhp (155.1 kW) with a 2-barrel carburetor to over 300 bhp (223.7 kW) on the 4-barrel models. When these engines were introduced, they were called Interceptor V-8 on the base models and Interceptor Special V-8 on the 4-barrel models.[22] The 1958 H vin coded 352 was designated as Interceptor V-8 Thunderbird Special according to the 1958 Ford V8 Cars & Thunderbird Service Manual pg 483.
I wonder if the 4 bbl 332 also ended up with the Interceptor Sticker as well?
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If I remember correctly both 332 and 352 were called "Interceptors" and 292" Y-blocks were still "Thunderbird Special" Early models used solid lifters/cam, machined combustion chamber with about 10 to 1 c/r [rated] The actual c/r was dependent on manufacture tolerances and could vary up to one full point when stacking all the tolerances. Early customer complaints was the inability to run on available pump gas with out pinging and having to adjust the valves as part of the scheduled maintenance. As a results the factory lowered the c/r to about 9.6 to 1, drilled the block for hyd lifters and install said lifters. Only difference between the 332 and the 352 is the stroke [332=3.30" 352=3.50"] Early FE cylinder [EDC] heads had a machined chamber with a volume of 69-72 cc, Some had a core plug at each end of the head, later "575" heads had cast chambers, no end core plugs and slightly bigger combustion chamber 70-73cc. Almost all info here is from memory so take with a grain of salt.
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For the launch of the FE engine in 1958 both the 332 and 352 engines were marketed as "Interceptor V-8's". See pic from the 1958 Fairlane brochure attached. It had absolutely nothing to do with any special Police engine. In 1959 Ford switched to the "Thunderbird" marketing designation for all V8 engines (Y-blocks and FEs).
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Here is a concours restored 332 in a 1958 Sunliner.
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Early customer complaints was the inability to run on available pump gas with out pinging and having to adjust the valves as part of the scheduled maintenance. As a results the factory lowered the c/r to about 9.6 to 1, drilled the block for hyd lifters and install said lifters.
Yep for the first couple of months of production the 332 and 352 were solid lifter engines. The 361 Edsel FE was a hydraulic lifter engine from the beginning. I agree with RJP that this was not a planned change but rather a reaction to customer complaints. The '58 service manual even includes a procedure for setting hydraulic lifter pre-load with adjustable rockers. My guess is that Ford was trying to use-up their stock of adjustable rocker arm assemblies after the switch to hydraulic lifters.
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Early FE cylinder [EDC] heads had a machined chamber with a volume of 69-72 cc, Some had a core plug at each end of the head,
The very early FE blocks also had extra core plugs in each end it wasn't just the early heads.
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Thank You all for the information. It was just what I was looking for.
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I got a very early 361 engine out of a 1958 Edsel being scrapped about 12 years ago. The VIN indicated it was in the first 4000. (still have the tag) # 3711. As stated it was a Hydraulic lifter engine and has the core plugs in the ends of the heads. I sent Werby the cam for him to document. I've also got another set of the EDC-C heads I bought on HAMB (core plug and machined chambers) but will have to check and compare dates.
Date on the VIN seems to be Dec 22 1957.
Richard >>> FERoadster
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A friend's father when I was in high school had a '58 Fairlane hardtop. Black with a bit of yellow trim, solid lifters and the emblem on the glove box door is about all I remember...
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hNXtr9wtbFw/TcdeKtd7RdI/AAAAAAAABms/fy-6MI_tpAQ/s1600/1958+Ford+Fairlane+Interceptor.jpg)
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As with many other quirks of FoMoCo nothing is cast in stone...I have 2 sets of EDC heads with machined combustion chambers [unknown date code] that have no soft plugs in the front and rear of the head. Could it be that either heads were from different casting centers?
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I have had several pairs of those heads and none have had those end plugs, perhaps just very early in the model year. Weren't Edsels a "57 1/2" car, with production started in Spring 57?
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Weren't Edsels a "57 1/2" car, with production started in Spring 57?
Nope "E" day was September 4th, 1957. The new '58 Fords did not launch until late October IIRC.
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As with many other quirks of FoMoCo nothing is cast in stone...I have 2 sets of EDC heads with machined combustion chambers [unknown date code] that have no soft plugs in the front and rear of the head. Could it be that either heads were from different casting centers?
It’s just the very early EDC-E heads that have the plugs on the ends. I’ve been trying to document the dates recently to try and figure out about when the switch happened, but not enough info yet. One set of heads with plugs that have been advertised had a June 1957 date code. By a few months later for sure the plugs were gone.
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Here is a hydrolic lifter 2 barrel 332 from a 1958 Ranch Wagon. The dates are in February 1958. No extra core plugs in the heads or block. The air cleaner that was with it says Interceptor. Doing the math on the paper air filter it was good for a 292 @ 5,500 RPM. Seemed it was in the 4,500 RPM range for an FE. Maybe it was a left over from the Y Block days?
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Here is a 1958 Thunderbird 352. EDC-E heads without extra core plugs in the block or heads. Seems the dates on it were around November 1957. Like the above 332 the combustion chambers measured 74.5 cc. What was interesting is that the 352 head had the exhaust valve un shrouded. I think the exhaust valve comparison pbotos are lost but if I find them I will edit and bump this post.
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The only thing you will be "Intercepting" with a 332 - 2V will be diesel Vanagons and overheated Corvettes in limp mode.
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Kevin: dates on the "core plug heads" are not inside the VC rail as normal. the only thing I cans see is the EDC-E is parallel to the VC rail and there is a 79-D on one and the others have a 79-E and a 79-R. Are those some type of casting number?
If you know where the date code would be let me know. I'll get a picture of the cleaned heads later today. The 1958 Edsel heads are still grime covered so I'll clean one and check for a date inside the VC rail.
Richard
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Kevin: dates on the "core plug heads" are not inside the VC rail as normal. the only thing I cans see is the EDC-E is parallel to the VC rail and there is a 79-D on one and the others have a 79-E and a 79-R. Are those some type of casting number?
If you know where the date code would be let me know. I'll get a picture of the cleaned heads later today. The 1958 Edsel heads are still grime covered so I'll clean one and check for a date inside the VC rail.
Richard
The “79 D”, “79 E” & “79 R” are the date codes. The character system was a little different in the ‘50’s than what we’re more familiar with in the ‘60’s & ‘70’s. It’s still “Year” “Month” “Day”, but with numbers for Year, Combination of numbers & letters for the month, and a combination of letters & upside down letters for the day of the month. Since there are only 26 letters in the alphabet, but up to 31 days in the month, after they run out of letters they start with upside down letters. And 1-9 & Zero are used for the month up to October, and A & B for Nov & Dec. Around 1960 someone decided the latter system made more sense. Ford also only skipped one of the letters “I” or “O”, not both for a while, and I always forget which one. I have it in my notes, but in any case you’ll only be off a day or so ball parking the date code. So your “79 D” is 1957 Sept. 4th, your “79 E” is 1957 Sept. 5th, and your “79 R” is 1957 Sept. 17th. Another thing to look for, just for curiosity sake is which foundry they were cast at. Both “DIF” Dearborn Iron Foundry, and “CF” Cleveland Foundry seemed to be used right from the start of production for blocks, heads & intakes. But I don’t know if production changes happened at the same time at both.
Richard - I have in my notes you have an EDC-E head(s) with a “76 R” date, so is your “79 R” the same head or a typo?
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Actually (i'm old not so good vision so the dates then are 78-E) I'll get more pictures tomorrow. Also will pull the1958 Edsel 361 intake out and look for a date code.
Here are pictures of one of the heads I bought from HAMB. Dinner out with friends tonight 'only 3 family's in town' so I didn't clean the 79 R head which was from the very early Edsel. A picture of the piston however.
Richard
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I got a very early 361 engine out of a 1958 Edsel being scrapped about 12 years ago. The VIN indicated it was in the first 4000. (still have the tag) # 3711. As stated it was a Hydraulic lifter engine and has the core plugs in the ends of the heads. I sent Werby the cam for him to document. I've also got another set of the EDC-C heads I bought on HAMB (core plug and machined chambers) but will have to check and compare dates.
Date on the VIN seems to be Dec 22 1957.
Richard >>> FERoadster
Near as I can tell there are as many as 4 cams from the 1958-59 era.
1. FER sent me one, the EDD / b8a-a early Edsel hydraulic, and
2. Sunjet sent me another, the early Ford Interceptor EDC solid.
These are both the super-hi-performance (LOL) early cams.
3. The 1st cam was replaced due to its "rough" idle with a super-wimpy cam for just the Edsel maybe.
4. The 2nd cam was replaced with a more streetable hyd cam, the "300hp" grind that went thru 1965.
That's a rough guess of the story, and from there things get even rougher as I've tried to measure and guess the durations.
Here are my best measurements on Cams #1 and #2 and guess for #3. The cams were both worn so allow some slop there.
1. 196-196-156-156-110 This might be what later became the "M" Bird 390/340hp hyd 6v cam
2. 202-206-162-167-112 This might be what later became the "P" Ford 390/330pi solid cam.
3. 182-182-152-152-114 Probably for a super-smooth Model "A" idle speed.
4. 186-186-154-154-111 These specs are quite firm though I don't know exactly when this cam came out. I assume late 1958.
I also wonder if Cam #2 evolved into the 206-206 390/330pi solid cam from 1961-65, and then evolved into the early 390GT 206-206 hydraulic of 1966. Then the exhaust lobe got opened up in late 1966 to become the 390gt/428cj cam we all know and love.
I wonder too if Cam #2 was meant as the true Interceptor cam. When combined with the intended 10.0 CR, machined early chambers, early HiRiser iron intake (ok its only 1/4" taller.....) and that excellent early AFB carb with the Holley-style vacuum secondary and NO UGLY FLOPPENVALVE, making the 352/300 an honest Gonkulated 300hp engine. This would not be surpassed until 1961 when the 390/330pi came out.
Here’s what the Gonkulator is saying about the various early FE combos. As you can see the “horsepower” is all over the place:
RPM/100-Torq-RPM/100-Power-Description
28T357 45P275 361/303 early 58 Edsel, 9.9cr 196-196 hyd cam
27T355 45P260 361/303 later 58 Edsel, 9.9cr, 182-182 hyd cam
31T353 50P300 352/300 early 58 “Interceptor” prototype 10.2cr, 202-206 solid cam, early intake, big vac sec AFB
This would have been the hot ticket thru 1960 and given those truck-motor HiPo 348’s a hard time had Ford kept it as an option.
30T347 48P281 352/300 early 58 “Interceptor” production, 9.6cr, 202-206 solid cam, early intake, smaller AFB
Probably typical of a well tuned early 58 352/300
27T349 46P271 352/300 late 58 to 60 production, 9.6cr rated, 186-186 hyd cam, later intake, 4100 autolite 1.12
Starting to get very similar to the 1964 352/250-4bbl remix, with even lower 8.9cr.
27T334 44P256 352/300 1958 Tbird with scrunched up steering box exhaust iron and 9.0cr as measured.
You can see how quickly the very reasonable “300hp” degrades into 260-270 hp as a more likely production figure.
That’s assuming a good tune!
Ford really should have kept that honest 352/300 solid cam with the big vacuum AFB as an option to go up against Brand X, and offered a 352/270 rated engine as a “family torquer”, if you dare use “352” and “Torque” together. But they didn’t, and that’s that.
I’m always refining data for the Gonkulator, especially this early stuff. The story of the early 430 “Bulldozer” is similar, what we ended up with was quite a bit wimpier than the mean 430’s of late 1957.
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Kevin I'll check for the Edsel heads the 76 R was most likely a typo. The heads are under a stack of bell housings so it will be a bit later today. Cutting some downed trees this afternoon. I'll also check the Foundry and the date on the 58 Edsel Intake.
Richard
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OK got the date codes both of the 1958 Edsel heads are 79-R all 4 heads are Cleveland Foundry.
The VIN tag from the 1958 Edsel is W8RH703711 Body type 57B:L Date is: 22K Trans 4 Axle A.
If you want I'll dig out the 4bbl intake tomorrow picture of that is attached also the VIN Tag
Richard .
as an edit: it would be interesting if Cleveland did the Coreplug heads and DIF the solid end heads.