FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: thatdarncat on October 02, 2018, 04:50:53 PM
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Here’s a link to the Hot Rod article.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/underdog-enthusiast-joe-craine-leads-2018-engine-masters-challenge/
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Outstanding! Way to go, Joe! Not sure if there are more entries, but I hope he holds onto the lead. That engine looks cool as heck.
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Well...looks like the Jon Kasse - Royce Brechler MEL engine took over the top spot, making 798 hp.
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/lead-change-jon-kaases-mel-engine-makes-798-2018-engine-masters-challenge/
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Jon Kasse & our forum member Royce. ( Hot Rod magazine photos )
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYmXrMwK/CC02_F497-_CC2_D-4530-87_E6-6_FDE241_DDB74.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N5gVcnRt)
Do I spy a FE part on the MEL?
(https://i.postimg.cc/FH4XpWdD/F6_DF87_EC-8_F12-4_DA9-_BD29-726_D9_BE421_C5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kBfHXyyb)
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Badass, nice job fellas.
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Jon Kasse & our forum member Royce. ( Hot Rod magazine photos )
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYmXrMwK/CC02_F497-_CC2_D-4530-87_E6-6_FDE241_DDB74.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/N5gVcnRt)
Do I spy a FE part on the MEL?
(https://i.postimg.cc/FH4XpWdD/F6_DF87_EC-8_F12-4_DA9-_BD29-726_D9_BE421_C5.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kBfHXyyb)
I spy two.
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Dang, Joe drove around Ted, and Ted is the master with Y blocks. I swear that Kasse can get 500 HP out of a Tecumseh mower engine.
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Nice work fellas! ;) :) ;D
Wow, maybe it's the pic but the Kaase engine's headers look like they have immensely big diameter primaires!
Hope we get a lot of details on both engines soon. Pics too!
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I swear that Kasse can get 500 HP out of a Tecumseh mower engine.
I know you're joking, but you're probably right..lol
Wow, maybe it's the pic but the Kaase engine's headers look like they have immensely big diameter primaires!
I asked him last year about the adapter plates and headers on this engine, because I was sure he had something special going on there. He told me, and I quote "They were just some headers that I used on my 385 series engine. I didn't feel like making a special set for this engine". So he just made an adapter to use an old set he had laying around...lol
Obviously they're a good set of headers, and it just goes to show that a good header is a good header, no matter what they're on. They may look oversized for a Y-block, but at that HP level, I'm guessing the primary size didn't hurt anything.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0m5wGLY/em_d.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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Dang, I just looked back, and John made 28 more HP than he did last year. I'm guessing it was mostly due to a cam change, because with the way it was designed and built, making any other changes to that engine would not have been easy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJxN8jzr/em_i.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Edit to add that he also changed the plenum and switched to Dominator carbs. That probably made a big difference also.
This is last years entry.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyvPBJ58/em_b.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
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One thing's sure, Royce is gonna have himself one unique and bad-ass '56 wagon. Would love to see pics of that when it's together-
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Interesting head mods, for sure.
In today's world, I guess it wouldn't be hard to design and build an all new head and intake (or use an adaptor like Jay's for available intakes).
Imagine:
-A SBF head with smaller Tunnel Port heads than the originals.
-A FE head (ala' Jay's plans) with raised HR type intakes and straightened out (or replaced 100%) and raised exhaust ports.
-a BBF with LS-7 (sorry!) intake ports.
Many possibilities here with new heads for 455 Buicks, Nailhead Buicks, BB Olds, etc. Maybe a great head for an old 500 CID Caddy too!
P.S. I'm aware that replacement aluminum heads are available for many engines, GM's included. Most are fairly close to OEM heads and not radical.
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I don't recall ever seeing a Moroso oil filter. Is there a reason for this choice compared to the others?
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Moroso has made (or had their name slapped on) oil filters since the late 60's or early 70's. Maybe a sponsor requirement for the show?
I don't recall ever seeing a Moroso oil filter. Is there a reason for this choice compared to the others?
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>In today's world, I guess it wouldn't be hard to design and build an all new head and intake (or use an adaptor like Jay's for available intakes).
LOL, and yet after all these years there is still no tunnel ram for the 9.5 deck blocks, like a 351W. Go figure.
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I forgot that Chris as yes, why no T-ram, even today, IS a big mystery!
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I forgot that Chris as yes, why no T-ram, even today, IS a big mystery!
I know some people are using the Price adaptor to put the 289 piece on a Windsor, adding extra cost. But then, the runners are too small. There needs to be a dedicated ram for the popular 408-454 stroker crowd. Definitely a missing link. Weiand needs to be persuaded.
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Looking at the pictures of Joe's engine, the only improvement I can imagine would be if he had a pair of original T-Bird rocker covers on it!
KS
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Moroso has made (or had their name slapped on) oil filters since the late 60's or early 70's.
I don't recall ever seeing a Moroso oil filter. Is there a reason for this choice compared to the others?
I have had a mental block against Moroso because of their heavily pro-Chevy agenda dating back. So, I'm going to use that as an excuse for this oil filter thing. Yeah, that works. ::)
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Looking at the pictures of Joe's engine, the only improvement I can imagine would be if he had a pair of original T-Bird rocker covers on it!
KS
I have a nice set of originals. Also a turned 312 crank and a tach drive distributor off an E or F engine, I think. Great parts for the Y-Block engine I don't own. Go figure.
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I like Joe's engine better than the Kaase , not knocking the MEL or Kaase but realistically it's a 6 figure engine if your lucky enough for Jon to even consider on building you one , Joes effort is a real Y Block piece with just a major massaging
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Interesting head mods, for sure.
In today's world, I guess it wouldn't be hard to design and build an all new head and intake (or use an adaptor like Jay's for available intakes).
Imagine:
-A SBF head with smaller Tunnel Port heads than the originals.
-A FE head (ala' Jay's plans) with raised HR type intakes and straightened out (or replaced 100%) and raised exhaust ports.
-a BBF with LS-7 (sorry!) intake ports.
Many possibilities here with new heads for 455 Buicks, Nailhead Buicks, BB Olds, etc. Maybe a great head for an old 500 CID Caddy too!
P.S. I'm aware that replacement aluminum heads are available for many engines, GM's included. Most are fairly close to OEM heads and not radical.
The idea for that modified head came from a pair of small block Ford heads cast in '67 that I found at Holman Moody's in Charlotte when i was there in '77. I was digging around in an area where cast iron heads were stacked and noticed the "protruding" combustion chamber and wanted to see why it was done. It was apparent that Ford built a "cheater" head with very tall and high placed ports that when bolted on the engine looked "stock". The head was used in conjunction with a 9.2 deck "stretched" 302 style block with an XE casting number nicknamed the 377 block. A friend of mine ended up buying the heads that day and I took one to Dyno Don's shop in Orange when Jon worked for Dyno so we could flow test the head. Jon remembered the concept and incorporated it into that Engine Masters entry. His creativity is incredible.
The original deign can "probably" be linked to Al Buckmaster of Ford's Scientific engine development group. He's the man behind most of Ford's performance heads ( except the tunnel ports )
Randy
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Hi, folks, just got back home from the Engine Masters Challenge, and checking in. It was a very interesting challenge for sure. They lost 5 out of 7 of the Vintage entries due to detonation. I moved my timing back to 26* because the first two engines destroyed themselves, and I lost 30 hp and 30 lbft torque from the timing change. We had a solid 595hp at home, and that would have won the Vintage class if I could have kept my timing at 29.5* with higher octane fuel. The Sunoco fuel was 100 octane, and we did not get that information until a few days before the competition. We were running 13:1 compression, and it was not compatible with the 100 octane fuel. I was tied with Jon after two pulls on the dyno, but Jon then went to tuning and adding timing to his engine to break the tie. He was able to increase his timing just enough to get the points needed, and by tweaking his carbs and timing, he won fair. I should have not tried to increase my timing more than one degree, but it is always easy to second guess yourself. The little 292/375 Y was definitely a strong performer, and with 110 VP, it would have been the winner. You talk about the headers on Jon's engine, but we actually dyno tested his EMC headers from the winning engine back in 2015, and my FPAs made more torque and horsepower. Now I will have to decide if I want to build another entry for next year. LOL. They will definitely change the rules so that the winning engine cannot come back the following year. Joe-JDC
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Looking at the pictures of Joe's engine, the only improvement I can imagine would be if he had a pair of original T-Bird rocker covers on it!
KS
I have the Thunderbird valve covers, but I just could not cut them to install the crankcase evacuation breathers. The Edelbrock covers do not have any particular significance to me, so they were sacrificed for the cause. Joe-JDC
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Tip of the hat Mr. Craine.
Much respect.
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Nice showing Joe, keeping Ford relavant is what we need
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Have to say very nice.Hats off.
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Great job Joe, and thanks for sharing the experience with us.
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Congrats for a strong effort!
It was great seeing you again, and the entry was absolutely top shelf.
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I would like to give a tip of the cap to my 2 Y block competitors Ted and Joe who placed 2nd and 3rd..Ted was plowing new ground with a 403 inch Y block.. It is a real feat to get a 4.3 inch stroke into engine architecture that is closer to a small block than a big block. As so often happens in racing, when you plow new ground you are bound to hit some stones. Ted was unlucky as he was the first up on the dyno and had to deal with the new fuel. Sunoco 250 GT was the fuel that was provided in 2017. Nobody had any detonation problems. The same fuel this year destroyed 5 engines... Unfortunately the Sunoco rep was nowhere to be seen. Joe had the best looking tidiest engine in the contest, plus it was a real contender.. He was on track for the best Y block score ever and potentially a win till he was bitten by the detonation bug.
I was again teamed with Jon Kaase as we fielded basically the same engine as 2018 with a few modifications. It is the same 473 inch MEL short block and the highly modified heads . The tunnel ram was reworked with a new plenum and twin dominators, and it was running a cam that made some more top end horsepower. We had planned to run a cam that scored better, but Comp did not finish the custom cam in time, so we ran what we had.. We finished about 100 points lower than last year, sacrificing low and mid range to gain top end horsepower.. The way EMC scores, low end is very important to making a good score.. We did want to make an 800 horsepower number but came up just short with 798.6.
Our engine avoided the detonation carnage. Being the 5th engine to run we had seen some failures.. Jon backed the tune way down till we got 3 solid runs in, then started creeping up on the timing and fuel curve..The MEL is running about a point less compression than the others, plus it is essentially an O ringed head so gasket failure is unlikely. We ended up with a middle of the road tune, as Jon did not want to push the envelope.. after all, when the contest is over I get the engine back and he did not want to have to rebuild it again lol
A lot of people think since Jon is a big time builder that he can throw a lot of money and hired labor at these entries. With the MEL that is not the case at all.. He did all the labor himself, and the parts are nothing special. $600 crank $400 set of rods Diamond pistons, off the shelf valves and springs, mid level roller lifters. bullet proof valvetrain custom made using a T&D FE street setup. Stock timing chain and oil pump, crank trigger firing though a stock distributor.. A well used Weiand tunnel ram. The Dominators are custom pieces but they were built for another boat project. Actually the twin 750s we ran last year were probably better performers.
The secret sauce is what comes from the creative mind of Jon Kaase..To turn a low rpm torque motor with no performance reputation into a race motor is an extraordinary feat.. The creativity and machining skill that went into the heads is mind boggling. One needs to lay eyes on them to understand what he did and how he did it..We have been invited to be at the PRI show at the JE booth with the engine on display, so if any of you are attending, stop by for a look see
Finally I can't say enough about Jon Kaase the man and engine builder.. Obviously he is creative and skilled.. What most people don't know is he has the killer instinct for winning.. yet he is humble, never brags, respects others, always is willing to chat and answer questions, wants other people to succeed. It has been a pleasure and honor to partner with him.
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But, they must all be 427's, right? I mean, it's cast right on the back! ;)
Hah! Ford did pull a boner on that i.d.
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Looking at the pictures of Joe's engine, the only improvement I can imagine would be if he had a pair of original T-Bird rocker covers on it!
KS
I have the Thunderbird valve covers, but I just could not cut them to install the crankcase evacuation breathers. The Edelbrock covers do not have any particular significance to me, so they were sacrificed for the cause. Joe-JDC
About a zillion years ago, I had a 312 in my '54 Customline. Soon after I got it running, I got a chance to buy a set of the cast T-Bird covers. I'm not absolutely sure, but I think I had to give $10 for them. I was working for $1.75 an hour that summer, and had just bought a Paxton VS 59 blower for the car so the extra $10 really cut into my pocket money. But they sure did look good. ( The B7A-6250-C cam came soon thereafter. Cost about $15 over the parts counter at Bill Brown Ford on Plymouth in Livonia---up the street from T&C Livonia.) Good Times!
KS
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Royce your comments about Jon are spot on. When he came out from Ohio to work for Dyno Don (rip) I had the same impression. Jon always gave Don the credit but worked tirelessly to make him run better and be more organized. The pairing produced a world championship in one of the toughest years of Pro Stock racing. Through all of that and his many successes in the following years Jon has remained Jon. Willing to use a "good" $10 part or make a $1,000 custom part from scratch if he "had" to in order to get he job done. He never rests on his laurels because he is keenly aware that others (like Ted and Joe's fine entries) are capable of beating him on any given day. Jon's creativity has raised the bar and IMHO , made these competitions interesting. Congrats to Joe and Ted it's too bad the problems with the fuel kept Joe from winning. I thought he had it in the bag.
The fuel issue has been a problem for NHRA Pro racers who must also use a "spec" fuel like Pro Stock. Early on , engine carnage was directly linked to inconsistency in the fuel. Fuel check ( at finish line after a run) became a game of Russian Roulette. Fuel from the same can might not check on the next fuel check. It's sad to hear Sunoco has issues again.
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Royce your comments about Jon are spot on. When he came out from Ohio to work for Dyno Don (rip) I had the same impression. Jon always gave Don the credit but worked tirelessly to make him run better and be more organized. The pairing produced a world championship in one of the toughest years of Pro Stock racing. Through all of that and his many successes in the following years Jon has remained Jon. Willing to use a "good" $10 part or make a $1,000 custom part from scratch if he "had" to in order to get he job done. He never rests on his laurels because he is keenly aware that others (like Ted and Joe's fine entries) are capable of beating him on any given day. Jon's creativity has raised the bar and IMHO , made these competitions interesting. Congrats to Joe and Ted it's too bad the problems with the fuel kept Joe from winning. I thought he had it in the bag.
The fuel issue has been a problem for NHRA Pro racers who must also use a "spec" fuel like Pro Stock. Early on , engine carnage was directly linked to inconsistency in the fuel. Fuel check ( at finish line after a run) became a game of Russian Roulette. Fuel from the same can might not check on the next fuel check. It's sad to hear Sunoco has issues again.
I'll third this.....
Jon's a top notch guy and is very humble. I dyno'd a Boss 9 engine down at his shop several years ago and was taken aback by how generous (bought everyone's lunch, including mine and my customer's) he was and how easy he was to talk to. Just an all-around nice guy.
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Royce your comments about Jon are spot on. When he came out from Ohio to work for Dyno Don (rip) I had the same impression. Jon always gave Don the credit but worked tirelessly to make him run better and be more organized. The pairing produced a world championship in one of the toughest years of Pro Stock racing. Through all of that and his many successes in the following years Jon has remained Jon. Willing to use a "good" $10 part or make a $1,000 custom part from scratch if he "had" to in order to get he job done. He never rests on his laurels because he is keenly aware that others (like Ted and Joe's fine entries) are capable of beating him on any given day. Jon's creativity has raised the bar and IMHO , made these competitions interesting. Congrats to Joe and Ted it's too bad the problems with the fuel kept Joe from winning. I thought he had it in the bag.
The fuel issue has been a problem for NHRA Pro racers who must also use a "spec" fuel like Pro Stock. Early on , engine carnage was directly linked to inconsistency in the fuel. Fuel check ( at finish line after a run) became a game of Russian Roulette. Fuel from the same can might not check on the next fuel check. It's sad to hear Sunoco has issues again.
I'll third this.....
Jon's a top notch guy and is very humble. I dyno'd a Boss 9 engine down at his shop several years ago and was taken aback by how generous (bought everyone's lunch, including mine and my customer's) he was and how easy he was to talk to. Just an all-around nice guy.
I'll 4th this. I'm an absolute nobody, but both times I had questions and talked to him at 2 EMC events, he talked to me and answered my questions, in depth, like I was just as important as the magazine and on-line guys. His ingenuity is next level stuff, but his personable character is almost unheard of, especially at his level of expertise.
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Yes, Jon is very easy to talk with, and very knowledgeable, and down to earth in his attitude. I had a very good discussion with him about how we grew up and got started in automobiles, especially FEs, and beyond. I grew up in the Greenville SC area, and he is in Winder GA. I was drafted my second year of college, and he missed the draft due to his college and age difference. I graduated in 1964, and he in 1970, so I was already in Vietnam two times before he finished college. His son was disabled in the Army, and my son has a service connected disability from Desert Storm, etc. We have a lot in common with home life, and he was gracious through the whole competition. I congratulated Royce and him immediately after their dyno session. It was a learning experience, and I hope it will encourage others to enter their engines in a future competition. JE Pistons has a unique facility and they are planning to expand the competition for next year. Maybe you folks might consider building an engine for next year. If so, good luck and have fun. Joe-JDC
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Joe, thanks to you and your son for your service to our country! Also appreciate the encouragement to give the EMS a shot.