FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: happystang on September 10, 2018, 09:24:16 PM
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Hi everyone,
I'm in the process of building a 428 for my '68 fastback and I'm approaching the stage where I need to pick a rocker arm assembly. I'm using Edelbrock aluminum heads with springs rated for a roller cam (150lbs on the seat) with a relatively mild Lunati hydraulic roller cam:
Advertised Duration (Int/Exh): 262/270
Duration @ .050 (Int/Exh): 211/219
Gross Valve Lift (Int/Exh): .559/.559
LSA/ICL: 112/106
Valve Lash (Int/Exh): Hyd/Hyd
RPM Range: 1600-5600
The heads will utilize Edelbrock's stud kit for the rocker arms.
I currently have the factory adjustable type rocker arms:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1857/30301835868_5015fa41a3_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NaEQ71)IMG_6800.JPG (https://flic.kr/p/NaEQ71) by armon7 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/55113585@N03/), on Flickr
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1853/29231503437_b307840f6a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Lx66yz)IMG_6802.JPG (https://flic.kr/p/Lx66yz) by armon7 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/55113585@N03/), on Flickr
Would these suffice for my build? I see the Harland Sharp setup for nearly $1000, but I feel that might be slightly overkill for my application. I'm not opposed to swapping the stock rocker arms in favor of roller rockers if that's necessary.
If these are suitable, any tips or tricks for rebuilding them? Anything I should look for?
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If the adjuster screws are tight and the shafts are not worn, those factory parts will be just fine. I would be tempted to spring for a set of end stands since you do not have the steel rocker stands.
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+2 on the end stands. With a 590/590 solid & standard Edelbrock springs I broke the ends off.
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I'd run stock hydraulic rockers with that cam. Set it up once and forget it. End stands are always a good idea
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I'm with the guys above. End stands for sure, with those aluminum stands. If that's all you have is the adjustables, and they're not all scored up, and the adjusters are good like Barry mentioned, use 'em. Even if the adjusters are loose, you can spring for a set of Crane locking screws, if they still make them that is. I did that on an engine 25 years ago and they're still in use today. I would probably consider better stands, only because even though that roller is a mild one, it has a fairly aggressive lobe, and I'm not a fan of the factory aluminum stands. They do tend to flex a bit with any decent pressure put on them.
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That is my setup....
Endstands, center stands, spacers, studs, crane locking adjusters, and new sealed power shafts.
It's overkill even for my setup. For the original poster I'd just toss on endstands. Adjusters and new shafts if needed. It's a $100-$200 upgrade and would be pretty tough to hurt.
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Couple things to consider with stock adjustable rockers. First, notice the oiling holes that squirt pressurized oil on the valve tip on one side and on the adjuster on the backside. If the rockers have too much slop in their bore, oil leakage will drop oil pressure overall and the valve tip and pushrod will not get proper cooling lube.
Second, if you keep the factory adjusters, make sure they are super tight, or they could loosen with use. They rely only on the interference fit of the threads. If they've been adjusted multiple times in the past, they may have provided their own, happier threads.
Third, if you use the stock rockers and change to aftermarket adjusters, that will completely negate the chance of loosening, but the rockers must be machined to do so. The stock rocker does not have a flat surface for the locking nut to locate on. Instead, it will bottom on the highest point, loading the adjuster unevenly. Broken adjusters or rockers could result.
Lastly, if you do go the route of aftermarket adjusters, make sure you buy pushrods of a length that allow the adjuster to be lowered just enough to allow the oil hole to squirt above the cup. Otherwise, the cups will not be getting proper lube, instead, they shield themselves.
On that last note, not everyone agrees with me on that and they suggest you need to crank the adjuster up as high as possible for proper geometry. He'll be along any minute to explain himself. I stand by the words I've written above.
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Third, if you use the stock rockers and change to aftermarket adjusters, that will completely negate the chance of loosening, but the rockers must be machined to do so.
Not necessarily true. I never machined mine and they have never loosened in over 25 years of use. Never broke anything either. I wasn't running sky high spring pressures, but they have seen a LOT of hard use. In fact, after that 25 years of use, I just threw them on my Galaxie and drove 1300 miles to Atlanta and back this weekend. Not a problem.
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I would run factory non-adjustables on your setup in a heartbeat.
On a separate note, I have a new rocker arm coming out that will fill a gap for hydraulic applications (will work for solids too if you're so inclined). Should have samples in here next week.
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Thank you all for the suggestions.
My next question, what would be considered excessive wear on the rocker shaft? Or is this something that needs to be checked with a mic (what #'s should I expect)?
Any advantages to using the factory adjustable rockers versus buying brand new non adjustable rockers?
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At the level of your build, there is no reason to spend money on different rockers when yours will work fine, as long as they're not scored badly. As far as the shafts go, again, just look for bad scoring. I'd be tempted to go with a new set of Sealed Power shafts, just because original shafts tend to be scored pretty good from years of use, but that's not always the case depending on how much use they have on them.
It's a fairly mild build, so no need to go overboard and spend money you don't have to. Barry gave you good advice at the start, keep the parts you have (provided they're not scored bad), and just spring for end stands and adjusters if needed. I wouldn't even use spacers, those springs do a fine job on mild builds. The bad part about reusing the shafts even if they don't look bad is that they hold a LOT of crud inside them, and it's nearly impossible to get out without popping the end plugs out and running a brush through them.
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On a separate note, I have a new rocker arm coming out that will fill a gap for hydraulic applications (will work for solids too if you're so inclined). Should have samples in here next week.
Caught that.
Steel?
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Nope.
Aluminum. Roller tip. Bushed or bearing fulcrum.
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At the level of your build, there is no reason to spend money on different rockers when yours will work fine, as long as they're not scored badly. As far as the shafts go, again, just look for bad scoring. I'd be tempted to go with a new set of Sealed Power shafts, just because original shafts tend to be scored pretty good from years of use, but that's not always the case depending on how much use they have on them.
It's a fairly mild build, so no need to go overboard and spend money you don't have to. Barry gave you good advice at the start, keep the parts you have (provided they're not scored bad), and just spring for end stands and adjusters if needed. I wouldn't even use spacers, those springs do a fine job on mild builds. The bad part about reusing the shafts even if they don't look bad is that they hold a LOT of crud inside them, and it's nearly impossible to get out without popping the end plugs out and running a brush through them.
I agree, although a new set of purpose-built hyd only rockers sounds REALLY good for a couple healthy 462 builds I have coming up and wouldn't hurt here
However, I disagree that an old set of adjustables are right for this, (or even a new set or adjustable rollers). Stock hyd rockers for a cam that size would be lighter, zero maintenance, and with the minor difference in lift (under 2%) and off-seat duration at the valve, no downside to me combined with lots of good by going with non-adjustable. Simply, lighter, Mo' cheap and mo' easy :)
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I agree, although a new set of purpose-built hyd only rockers sounds REALLY good for a couple healthy 462 builds I have coming up and wouldn't hurt here
However, I disagree that an old set of adjustables are right for this, (or even a new set or adjustable rollers). Stock hyd rockers for a cam that size would be lighter, zero maintenance, and with the minor difference in lift (under 2%) and off-seat duration at the valve, no downside to me combined with lots of good by going with non-adjustable. Simply, lighter, Mo' cheap and mo' easy :)
He's using a hydraulic cam, so where is the "maintenance" needed? Set the preload and you're done. Spending a couple hundred dollars to replace parts that he already has, that will work fine, is not cheaper. Lighter? Look at the specs on his cam card. It has an RPM range to 5600. A few grams are not going to make any difference.
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I ended up ordering a pair of new Sealed Power rocker shafts, I did some research and I'm assuming mine are caked with grease (as aforementioned in a previous post). At $25 each, I think it's cheap insurance!
I see both rocker end supports as well as rocker stands that replace the stock aluminum ones. Is there a kit that sells them both? Since I'm essentially starting fresh with new rocker shafts, I'm tempted to splurge and do it right the first time ;D
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I agree, although a new set of purpose-built hyd only rockers sounds REALLY good for a couple healthy 462 builds I have coming up and wouldn't hurt here
However, I disagree that an old set of adjustables are right for this, (or even a new set or adjustable rollers). Stock hyd rockers for a cam that size would be lighter, zero maintenance, and with the minor difference in lift (under 2%) and off-seat duration at the valve, no downside to me combined with lots of good by going with non-adjustable. Simply, lighter, Mo' cheap and mo' easy :)
He's using a hydraulic cam, so where is the "maintenance" needed? Set the preload and you're done. Spending a couple hundred dollars to replace parts that he already has, that will work fine, is not cheaper. Lighter? Look at the specs on his cam card. It has an RPM range to 5600. A few grams are not going to make any difference.
Well, I won't argue that if the rockers hold their adjustment, your statement is correct. But that's an IF, and once a stocker is run down too tight, they aren't as tight as they were originally.
I promise I am far more of a cheapskate than you, ask Brent LOL, but I haven't seen too many tight 50+ year old adjusters, and if he hasn't bought pushrods, it's an easy swap. If he has bought pushrods, I'd push him to buy the lock nuts if you can still get them.
As far as weight, everything makes a little difference, is it a problem? no, but we get rid of factory two piece retainers, etc. Reducing weight lets the spring work better, that's true for a Briggs & Stratton or a Formula 1 engine. However, I do agree, it's not as critical as his performance level, but also would depend on actual spring pressure for his setup whether it would help at 5600 with heavy roller lifter components and relatively heavy valves. BTW, that RPM range is a cam grinder's WAG, but shift point will be always be above peak HP, so that's where we want to make sure the springs behave. I know I am preaching to the choir, but lighter parts can only help if they are strong enough
Additionally, if he didn't buy pushrods, even the length checker he will need to buy is cheaper and easier to find with ball/ball, and could easily be built with an old hollow pushrod. not a crisis LOL but another input
In fact, I'd consider three things that could be considered good options on a budget
1 - Save the money on the middle stands, only buy end stands. The middle stands won't misbehave at all
2 - If he didn't buy pushrods already, I'd go stock hyd rockers and ball/ball and sell the adjustables to offset cost
3 - If he has pushrods, I'd use the offset of not buying the center stands to buy lock nuts for the adjustable rockers
All are viable options and all are correct, but if you can't tell, I don't hate stock adjustables, but I don't love them without lock nuts. In fact, I am surprised Ford did it that way, but nobody expected these cars to still have parts in use 50 years later
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It used to be possible to go to the boneyard and get a double-handful of adjustment screws and locknuts from a Y-block to substitute for the interference fit screws found on FEs. If I remember right, I'd get the whole works for a dollar or so.
I used the 'fine' wheel on my bench grinder to make a flat on the rocker arm and called it good. Y-blocks used a screwdriver slot instead of a hex to move the screw, but it was easily learned---I ran a 312 before I got my first FE. (We made the adjustment screws for FEs at T&C Livonia and they were only case-hardened. Y-block screws were through-hardened. I'd look at my 'new' handful but most seemed to be in good shape on the ball-end.)
KS
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Last time i used a ordinary hand file to knock down the high spots
a verry underapreciated tool 4-5 strokes with a sharp file, voila done