FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 6667fan on August 25, 2018, 03:21:35 PM
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I wish to try one to one linkage on my tunnel wedge equipped 483. Can this be done using the OEM 2 x 4 linkage set-up? If modifying any of the components is required that is fine. I expect the carbs to match from off idle to WOT. I also expect some retuning of the carbs as a result of this change but I’m down for that. Anyone have a pic of what they have done? Thanks much, JB
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Be prepared for a big downgrade in street manners! The progressive linkage gives you more control at low rpm / taking off from a stop. With the direct linkage change you'll have a lot more airflow right now as you press the pedal.
I worked on progressive throttle bodies at Ford for awhile. They really help control the bucking when you have a big herd of horses.
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I made my own 1:1 linkage for my pickup years ago, still use it today on the wagon.
I use the factory crossbar linkage, but made my own threaded rods/ends to hook to the carbs. Pretty simple actually. I custom machined the rod ends from 1/2" square bar stock, then threaded it(so they stack up on the crossbar pin). I don't think I have a good picture handy, but I can get one tonight/tomorrow and post it.
The pickup has factory progressive on it, I always set it up to be able to cruise along at 35-40 mph before it would start to pull into the second carb.
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Be prepared for a big downgrade in street manners! The progressive linkage gives you more control at low rpm / taking off from a stop. With the direct linkage change you'll have a lot more airflow right now as you press the pedal.
I worked on progressive throttle bodies at Ford for awhile. They really help control the bucking when you have a big herd of horses.
Bill will it make as much difference on the single plenum Tunnel wedge as it does on the dual plane 2x4 ? , seems like it would starve a few cylinders out on the Tunnel wedge at part throttle
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Be prepared for a big downgrade in street manners! The progressive linkage gives you more control at low rpm / taking off from a stop. With the direct linkage change you'll have a lot more airflow right now as you press the pedal.
I worked on progressive throttle bodies at Ford for awhile. They really help control the bucking when you have a big herd of horses.
I have that problem on the Chrysler hotrod, not a big heard but no weight. With a wideratio toploader and 3.50 rear gear
I have to start in second or mash the pedal to the floor and hang on, otherwise i jump like a frog
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Bill will it make as much difference on the single plenum Tunnel wedge as it does on the dual plane 2x4 ? , seems like it would starve a few cylinders out on the Tunnel wedge at part throttle
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Good question! I haven't heard of a part-throttle misfire (fuel distribution) problem ever showing up on a decent street intake by using a progressive linkage. I imagine that on one carb, the flow velocities tend to be low enough in the plenum that the fuel stays in suspension. Sure the air / fuel has to go farther to get to some cylinders, but the fuel would still get there.
I'm all ears if some of the racers have other tales! My experience is with more street-friendly applications.
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I’m looking at it from how can cylinders 4 and 8 get a fair shot when the mixture is being dropped on cylinders 2 and 6 initially? This intake of course was not delivered on production cars. So it’s intended use of WOT or close to it has to be taken into consideration for street use. I put the intake on because they look so darn tough, not because it was going to be a home run for street usage, lol. I will report back about the 1 to 1 drive-ability. JMHO, JB
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I would think it wouldn't be an issue....
Despite just two throttle plates opening, all are bleeding fuel constantly. Even a racy vehicle, when the throttle is opening slightly the pump shot fires and vacuum drops initially but rapidly rises.
This is with a slow opening, with a rapid opening, well it doesn't take much progressive linkage before the second carb is firing it's pump shot.
With my car and such a loose convertor I'm giving it a good bit of throttle to get rolling anyway.
I don't see any harm in trying it both ways.
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Besides the distribution do you think there is any performance gain going 1 to 1
over a progresive set up. Or do you think the mashing of the trottle negates that
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Only speculation on my part as it remains untested for me , my progressive linkage is hard to control spin with my street tires when in race mode , it's like a trip hammer with the gas pedal all or nothing , my thought was 1 to 1 would give me more throttle control over the 2x4's during wheel spin situations , I now run drag radials so the immediate problem is solved and I'm still run progressive linkage so I don't know for sure , I'll just enjoy better gas mileage while cruising easy for now :)
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i also run progressive. I dont think there would be any performance gain although hell might as well ask to see what anybody else thought different. On the street progressive is the way to go. I dont think 1 to 1 would be better at controlling wheel spin.
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Initial impressions: slight stumble off idle, no tuning of accelerator pump system has been attempted yet, no time to tune, just a run around the block. After that much better throttle response from idle up to 3500 or so. That area was not super impressive previously, until the second carb came in via the progressive linkage.
I like it a lot and am looking forward to more tuning. My A/F which was fat 2500-3000 with the progressive is now much better. I expected to see the opposite with the second carb coming in sooner but that may be due to the motor pulling harder on the one carb before?
Now the fatness 11.8/1 is moved higher up 3-4 K but I expect to sort that out via hi speed air bleeds and my A/F monitor.
It should be noted the intended use of this car is for thrashing, as such this attempt at increased low end performance with the possibility of some bad manners is not a hardship. Car has been to track twice and I’m all about getting it back there this fall.
Thanks for all input and would love to hear more.
JB
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I ran 1:1 on the tunnel ram with the Eds. I'm sure there is plenty of configuration dependent issues but once tuned I never had any problem with the 1:1. On a dual carb dual plane, I'd for sure do 1:1. Assume the front barrels on a 2x4 with vacuum carbs are wide open and offering 300 CFM each carb. The dual plan pulls from only half the available carb area, so basically the open throttle area looks more like a 300 CFM 2 BBL to the engine than two 4 bbl carbs.
You'll still have to field the "1200 CFM on a XXX CID, that's way too much" comments. :)
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There is a this Formula that say so........ ;D;D
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I wish to try one to one linkage on my tunnel wedge equipped 483. Can this be done using the OEM 2 x 4 linkage set-up? If modifying any of the components is required that is fine. I expect the carbs to match from off idle to WOT. I also expect some retuning of the carbs as a result of this change but I’m down for that. Anyone have a pic of what they have done? Thanks much, JB
Here is what I did on my 482 Tunnel Wedge Combo 1:1 but I am running EFI
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/CalypsoCoralBoss302/1966%20F100%20482/3A414E0D-08A7-4C37-A2AE-73DD0FBC7819.jpg)
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Try this for a larger size. Not sure why other photo is downsized
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/CalypsoCoralBoss302/media/1966%20F100%20482/3A414E0D-08A7-4C37-A2AE-73DD0FBC7819.jpg.html
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This is how mine has been for many years and drives just fine(for what it is)
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Thanks for pics. I’m working with Ford style throttle arms which are different than the universal 1850 arms.
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Phil isn't using the universal arm, those are dual 660 center squirters.
Cool, but hardly the best choice on the street.
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Missed that Drew, thanks.
I am hopeful to make some rods out of a combo of OEM pieces and some Speedway Motors parts that have been ordered. I would like to avoid drilling a hole in my QF carb, ( rear carb), for an additional trunnion. I may be able to run both rods off one.
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There is a this Formula that say so........ ;D;D
The "formula" is strictly designed to reduce customer returns to Holley and/or speed shops. Has nothing to do with real fuel delivery or engine demand nor does it take into account any specifics of the build it'll be sitting on. I used to work in parts and nearly 70% of people come in to buy the biggest carb they can imagine for the least likely candidate engine because some bud said this or that, or they read it in some Car Crud or Hot Stuff article. They have no idea how a carb works, how it meters fuel and lots of time they don't even know what's inside the target motor. You whip out the formula to try and dodge the obvious fail and the cost of return, restocking, now I have a used $300 carb I can't sell as new, etc.
David Vizard says in his books that if it meters fuel, it's not too big.
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I use this for 1:1 instead of the OE linkage.
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r631/dmb496/P1030274_zpsbblx5nhf.jpg) (http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/dmb496/media/P1030274_zpsbblx5nhf.jpg.html)
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r631/dmb496/P1030277_zpsmv9v3mpp.jpg) (http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/dmb496/media/P1030277_zpsmv9v3mpp.jpg.html)
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HTM101, I don't know who you are.... but you should really post more often :P Nice setup, very clean :P
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There is a this Formula that say so........ ;D;D
The "formula" is strictly designed to reduce customer returns to Holley and/or speed shops. Has nothing to do with real fuel delivery or engine demand nor does it take into account any specifics of the build it'll be sitting on. I used to work in parts and nearly 70% of people come in to buy the biggest carb they can imagine for the least likely candidate engine because some bud said this or that, or they read it in some Car Crud or Hot Stuff article. They have no idea how a carb works, how it meters fuel and lots of time they don't even know what's inside the target motor. You whip out the formula to try and dodge the obvious fail and the cost of return, restocking, now I have a used $300 carb I can't sell as new, etc.
David Vizard says in his books that if it meters fuel, it's not too big.
Yes i know but internet experts always refer to that formula when someone
ask how big carb they need and ends up that a hot 390 cant handle moore
than a 500 . and that two 600 is way to big at 1200. and that to big carb drench
the engine with fuel ;D
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Phil isn't using the universal arm, those are dual 660 center squirters.
Cool, but hardly the best choice on the street.
True, but the carbs have had a lot of work before I got them and they do have respectable street manners. BUT it's NOT a car to drive every day between it's high compression, C8AX-D cam and the 4:11 r&p in the back (being a 3 pedal car probably helps with the drivability) But it IS a fun car to drive. that's why I said "for what it is"
HTM101, also very nice setup
Run the Ford linkage to the front carb then make a new linkage to go carb to carb, easy to try and it'll ether work better or not. If not just change it back
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>HTM101
Hmmm, very interesting. Like that - very clean and no monkey business.
>Yes i know but internet experts always refer to that formula ...
LOLOLOL yes. When I need a carb recommendation, first place I go is Facebook. :o
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Thank you Drew, Phil and Chris. The simple linkage makes for an overall tight connection.
David
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anyone run two 2 barrels on a two four intake , I am getting tired of boiling gas out of eldies .
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HTM101, that is a very clean set-up. Very nice and simple.
Couple questions for you; where did you get that bracket and extension that mounts on the carb throttle shaft?
Also, what's the sensor for mounted on the front carbs throttle shaft?
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Looks like a TPS are you planning something with that HTM101. I Originally had a 1to 1 setup
but switched to progressive mainly cause I was driving it on the street and it got me a couple of miles per gallon. Hey not that it gets anything spectacular but I don’t really notice any performance falloff.
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Doug & Stangman,
The splined shaft came from Good Vibrations Motorsports. The shaft coupler with 2 set screws, is a McMaster-Carr item.
The black plastic piece on the front carb is a throttle position sensor. I used it with an Innovate Motorsports 2-channel wide band O2 system for tuning. Got some very good data from the system which helped me dial-in the pair of QFT's.
David
(http://i1175.photobucket.com/albums/r631/dmb496/P1030273_zpsl1xpqypc.jpg) (http://s1175.photobucket.com/user/dmb496/media/P1030273_zpsl1xpqypc.jpg.html)
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A couple of comments late in the game
1 - I agree completely with the "no carb is too big" rule as said earlier and referenced to Vizard. If you can transition from idle to main circuit, often a bigger carb is easier as is less likely to go fast on top from too much signal. The engine only pulls what it pulls and if there is airflow over the booster adequate to keep a good fuel curve, too much isn't bad
2 - I cannot imagine any reason that 1:1 wouldn't behave. Of course if you have a trigger-quick throttle, or you are designing a car that grandma might put to the boards entering traffic, it could have a bit more response than desired, but tunnel rams and cross rams do it all the time and I haven't seen them do that. I have zero experience in the development of 1960s Fords, I was born in the late 60s, but I could see the benefit of not having to precisely tune a progressive system. As long as the primaries are in the ballpark at idle compared to each other, the only real synchronization is the balance tube to the vacuum secondaries. That makes it a lot easier on the line or in small-town Ford garages
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For those with interest - Spline shaft, et al - E-55-101, E-55-107
http://www.goodvibesracing.com/Enderle_Linkage_Kits.htm#COMPONENTS
I'll have to grab a set of those, I can make a tie bushing.
I look at 2x4s like this - with vacuum secondaries, the back half of the carbs will only come in when there is sufficient air flow. They don't count for anything until well up in RPM. On a dual plane intake, the engine sees half the current venturi area. A tunnel ram with two 600s on it can also be looked at as two 4 cylinder engines each with a 4 bbl carb. Only half of that carb is in use most of the time. Would you put a 300 CFM 2bbl on a 4 cylinder? No problem with that. Also, even on my 302 I've run a 600 DP as a street/strip carb. So at worst, slamming the throttle open on two 4s is about the same as a 600 DP. If you can tune a 600 DP to leave on cue, then you're good. One of the reason's the Eds work a little better out of the box than maybe the 1850s is that the primary boosters are more efficient and the front venturis are smaller. Maybe more like a "500 DP". I would think a pair of the Thunder AVS units with tuneable secondary air vane tip-in would work pretty well.
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Prosev-----porgesiv----- progg--? how do you spell that??? ::)
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LOL