FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Thumperbird on June 24, 2018, 11:17:19 AM
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All,
So, you can't make this stuff up.
Went for a cruise last night down the local avenue, back to the 50's is underway here in the Twin Cities.
Get to a light first in line, road is 3 wide, red challenger SRT was pulled up on the right, street slicks, and saw him earlier not afraid to use it. Matte black wrapped SRT pulls up on the left, we are all sitting there for a bit, long light, the black SRT purges.
There are hundreds of people all around the intersection, typical for this show. Cell phone cameras came up faster and more frequent than you can imagine. I knew this was a loss before it even started, I let them go, they went hard for a short bit, I got on it for fun but was less than thrilled with the comparative quickness.
Now I know my 1965 Thunderbird is a heavy boat and my build was never aimed at racing, just a woken up cruiser.
With that said, sure wish I would have had more, just for fun. Nitrous is not plumbed yet so that is still on the table. Wide ratio C6 puts me at 3.8 in first, but I'm still at 3000 rpm at 70 with 3.5 final, willing to spend $5k on the right things to maximize the base I have. Want it to stay a nice cruiser, not thinking I want to launch at 4000 rpm's but maybe?
445 stroker, SCAT crank and H beam rods, moderate hydraulic cam, roller rockers, edelbrock heads, headers, edelbrock dual quad with Holleys, 100hp nitrous (not up yet). 3000 stall which feels high for the street in a heavy car. The thing seems to hook up pretty well, rigid frame and weight seems to transfer nice load to the back, experiencing some moderate wheel hop at launch. Low end is soft.
After you're done laughing, I can take the jokes to, what does the collective experience on this website think are some good power adders or efficiency gains i can work in without starting over.
It was the coincidental chance of a lifetime to "surprise" the new car guys and have some fun with the audience and I showed but did not place.
Thanks.
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Your nitrous should be the best bang for the buck, then learn where it wants to be launched and shifted. My guess, when you get the nitrous going, you'll want to get into second gear a lot earlier than you'd think.
I mention this now and then, but on a buddies 440 inch drag Chevelle, we continue to launch lower and shift 1st gear lower, and it keeps going faster. He tore the rear out of it last year and he hasn't been back to it, but he used to do a 4500 rpm launch and 6500 rpm shifts in all gears, we are down to a 3500 rpm launch, and shift 1-2 at 5500, letting the remaining gears eat, and it keeps getting quicker
However, after that, I'd go gears, then head and intake work, swap cams if it won't match new setup. I don't know all the details of your engine, but if the Edels aren't ported, there is power there and in the intake
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"Cell phone cameras came up faster and more frequent than you can imagine."
That kinda says it all. If you DID have something for them, I'd sure keep it at the strip. Too many cameras. "One" is too many.
You could have had some fun:
Just punch Big Bird. That would get the Mopar kids jumpy and they'd both take off so fast the cops wouldn't even notice your Bird.
But they'd both be in big trouble.
That said:
The kid I sold my 429CJ to wrecked it a couple months later in a street race. The kid my cousin sold his L71 Vette (aka L88) to wrecked it and got hurt pretty bad. Kids today have no common sense at all - it's been bred out, probably even where you live. If you'd encouraged those clowns to race (each other), what if they or somebody got hurt?
I admire the kids I(and even adults) that buy a new Camaro/Mustang/Mopar and then I see it at the dragstrip - cool, that's what they're for. But on the street, I just don't get a car like that. Its no longer a hobby car, its just a wanna-be status symbol. 8)
Out here in CA, now that you can get "new" Black License Plates from DMV (they were used 1963-1969), I see so many black plates on new iron. They look even sillier on imported stuff, like a Porshkee or Beemer. It just says "I wish I had a real one but I don't know how to fix it so I got a new one with a USB port instead". Kinda sad. We are pretty lucky in comparison. :'(
OK where were we?
Is Thumperbird in the GOnkulator database?
Can you post back a build thread?
How fast do you want to go???? ;D
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Forget the "nice cruiser" stuff... this is WAR! Drastic measures needed. The TBird is a heavy car, I think 5 Star could make you a carbon fiber body. You will need a Pro Mod double rail chassis. A 550 cube Cammer with a 14-71 blower and a Lenco.
No purging Fiats need upset you again. 8)
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Forget the "nice cruiser" stuff... this is WAR! Drastic measures needed. The TBird is a heavy car, I think 5 Star could make you a carbon fiber body. You will need a Pro Mod double rail chassis. A 550 cube Cammer with a 14-71 blower and a Lenco.
No purging Fiats need upset you again. 8)
Nah, leave the "NOSS" for the Fast&Furious.
Do this: (68 Galaxie Big Fun)
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=328452
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwHtH1uHZU
He runs a big Lima but you could do the same with a "390" for about $12,000 extra.
Pop the hood & show em your gold "THUNDERBIRD" valve covers and all black iron. Just tell em you swapped the carb & air cleaner so it runs better. ;D
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Since it's a cruiser and what you are looking for is stop light shenanigans (0-60), nothing gonna beat gearing. Find the recent thread on AOD behind FE and know that 5.14's will still give that 3.50 final ratio in fourth. By the time you change transmissions, rear, and traction aids you'll be pretty close to your 5k budget.
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I should have made a few more comments:
First, I do not condone street racing, just a little playing around once and a while.
I let them go, was not going to get into it for many reasons including safety and local law.
Werby, not in the Gonkulator i suspect, i will dig up previous thread or post the current full build soon.
Felony I think you summed it up fairly well, just want to play a bit but don't want to lose the easy cruiser feel, I know the two don't necessarily go hand in hand. It is playful but not quick off the line, heck I'm not sure what the thing should even feel like with 500HP/TQ, may be only generating 450 these days due to tune, not sure yet.
I will look up the AOD thread, pretty big miss on my part, though I am maybe changing my mind about what I want a bit, another new trans and a another new 3rd member is kind of sad. I like the idea of the wide ratio c6 but could have gone with a little more gear, still though, 3000 RPM's at 70 is really all I ever want to see.
Just kind of sucked, got the thing restored and running well about a week ago, don't even have it tuned perfect yet or all the bugs worked out, idles mean and go's fairly well but not even close to the same ballpark as those things.
So:
AOD, gears, NOS (not a fan off the line though), higher stall but that is not very streetable, what else?
Thanks.
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http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=6054.0
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Build Summary:
1965 Thunderbird, curb weight is 4650, swapped some iron for aluminum up front but also added a few things, ~4500 pounds
445 ci 390
Professional machined block, bearing and piston bores, decks
SCAT crank and H beam rods, balanced, custom Racetec pistons for 10.2:1
Edelbrock aluminum heads and Edelbrock dual quad RPM AIr Gap, port matched, lightly ported - bowls, widened runners a bit, unshrouded the valves and plugs
Morel lifters, Harland Sharp rockers
FPA headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, free flowing
BJ/BK carbs, stock for now outside of #32 squirters, carbs not providing enough fuel yet overall I think
Comp Cams 3031R/3043R HR 110+6 Adv Dur Int 295, Exh 303 Dur .050 Int 233 Exh 241, lobe sep 110, lift Int .563 Exh .574
MSD pro billet mech. distributor with 6AL, medium silver springs, black bushing, 18 initial 36 total all in by 3000
1.5" tall custom offset carb spacers to fit the Holley's on the Edelbrock, NOS included
1" 4 hole spacers above that
Broader wide ratio C6, appears to be 3100 stall, flashes to 3100 when in 3rd and floored, Hurst ratchet shifter
Effectively adds .3 to first (gets 3.5 to 3.8), .1 to second, 3rd is 1:1 so 3.5 final
It is a 10" converter, trans is running warm, need to review this setup, seems very soft around town
Quick Performance 3.5 truetrac
10" wide 27" tall tires
Current tune - idle is rich, tip in is good if not a little rich, cruise to 50 is good A/F, 50 plus cruise gets lean but not bad, all in seems ok after a very brief lean spot
Again, not looking or expecting to run with the new stuff but certainly could use some more bottom end.
Thanks.
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Any pix of that? I'm interested in what the carbs look like on the Air Gap intake.
Sounds like a pretty nice combination of parts. The weight isn't much more than the Challengers but they are making much more power. Even the 485hp ones (6.1?) are in Net rating, that would be 550 plus the normal way.
Big advantage for the newfangled cars is those 8 speed slushboxes. Not sure adapting an AOD is a good idea any more. Kind of going the way of those adapters to use cassette tapes in your 8 track.
A Ford 6R80 is now able to be mated to an FE. That would be a huge improvement and they handle much more power than the AOD.
Wrong page of that link... try this
http://www.performanceautomatic.com/news/328/New_Blue_Chip_Street_Smart_Packages.html
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Any pix of that? I'm interested in what the carbs look like on the Air Gap intake.
Sounds like a pretty nice combination of parts. The weight isn't much more than the Challengers but they are making much more power. Even the 485hp ones (6.1?) are in Net rating, that would be 550 plus the normal way.
Big advantage for the newfangled cars is those 8 speed slushboxes. Not sure adapting an AOD is a good idea any more. Kind of going the way of those adapters to use cassette tapes in your 8 track.
A Ford 6R80 is now able to be mated to an FE. That would be a huge improvement and they handle much more power than the AOD.
Wrong page of that link... try this
http://www.performanceautomatic.com/news/328/New_Blue_Chip_Street_Smart_Packages.html
This link only has 4R70. Nothing about 6R80.
edit: OK, here's the 6R80 page. Nothing about FE. Ball's in your court.
http://www.performanceautomatic.com/products/ford-racing-transmissions/6r80-transmissions/6r80-street-smart-systems.html
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Thumper,
Oh, cool on the street race, I could tell you weren't condoning it - just never know who might be reading in the future.
WOW you have a lot of potential in Big Bird.
I went thru the Gonkulator step by step and got your 0-60mph down around 4 flat which is competitive with most of the overpriced new stuff.
Here goes -
Engine - never quite sure what "mild porting" means but I guessed and the Gonk says
Torq 524 at 4000
Powr 514 at 5700
The Gonk likes to shift at 6000. Shifting at 6200 did not go faster.
421 net hp assuming you turn a clutch fan & power steering.
Here is the Gonk timeslip right now but I'll just give 0-60mph and 330ft from then on, since that is where most street action is.
1.96
5.57
8.58 at 82.2
13.37 at 102.2
5.12 0-60mph
So that's
5.12 5.57
First thing I did was make the Bird magically hook up, that just takes out a lot of variables later.
5.04 5.52 Hooked Up
4.84 5.43 cold air if you haven't done that already
4.72 5.36 gear=3.89
4.62 5.31 gear=4.30
4.50 5.26 gear=4.86
4.47 5.25 gear=5.14 best. No gain going steeper
4.29 5.18 3" pipes & muffs. (2.5" is a good size for a 428cj but not much more)
3.65 4.89 spray=100, on at 3200rpm just above stall
So far no major parts replacement yet, but you don't have a freeway car.
You can sure keep up with those kids though.
Oh, I forgot about all those parts that will break right about now...…
gotta feed the Feral for a minute.....
Ok both cats got their food, brush, and treats.
Now back to stall.
At this point the 4000 stall slowed it DOWN - mainly because I'm waiting til just over stall to hit it with the Spray.
So the spray hits sooner with the ~3000 stall vs 4000.
An artifact - but, instead of adding a new converter (and yanking the engine again....) why not just get the NOSS working instead and see how much of the Gonkulator numbers start coming true?
Ok wait the Feral needs more food.
Ok back. So you've left the engine & trans alone, except for tuning.
Now the only major problem is the 5.14 gear.
NOW, instead of getting another converter, go for a fancy new trans.
That's about all I can think of and still keep it streetable.
Final timeslip:
1.67
4.89
7.56 at 91.7
11.90 at 112.6 and 7200rpm
or
12.30 at 95.5 if you just hold 6100rpm after the 1/8 mile and don't overrev it.
3.65 sec 0-60mph ;D
That way, if you're happy after the 5.14 and the other mods, you know the fancy $$$$ trans will be worth it. Or if you're bored by then just put the 3.50 gear back in, or even 3.00, and have a freeway cruiser. 8)
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Build Summary:
1965 Thunderbird, curb weight is 4650, swapped some iron for aluminum up front but also added a few things, ~4500 pounds
445 ci 390
Professional machined block, bearing and piston bores, decks
SCAT crank and H beam rods, balanced, custom Racetec pistons for 10.2:1
Edelbrock aluminum heads and Edelbrock dual quad RPM AIr Gap, port matched, lightly ported - bowls, widened runners a bit, unshrouded the valves and plugs
Morel lifters, Harland Sharp rockers
FPA headers, 2.5" dual exhaust, free flowing
BJ/BK carbs, stock for now outside of #32 squirters, carbs not providing enough fuel yet overall I think
Comp Cams 3031R/3043R HR 110+6 Adv Dur Int 295, Exh 303 Dur .050 Int 233 Exh 241, lobe sep 110, lift Int .563 Exh .574
MSD pro billet mech. distributor with 6AL, medium silver springs, black bushing, 18 initial 36 total all in by 3000
1.5" tall custom offset carb spacers to fit the Holley's on the Edelbrock, NOS included
1" 4 hole spacers above that
Broader wide ratio C6, appears to be 3100 stall, flashes to 3100 when in 3rd and floored, Hurst ratchet shifter
Effectively adds .3 to first (gets 3.5 to 3.8), .1 to second, 3rd is 1:1 so 3.5 final
It is a 10" converter, trans is running warm, need to review this setup, seems very soft around town
Quick Performance 3.5 truetrac
10" wide 27" tall tires
Current tune - idle is rich, tip in is good if not a little rich, cruise to 50 is good A/F, 50 plus cruise gets lean but not bad, all in seems ok after a very brief lean spot
Again, not looking or expecting to run with the new stuff but certainly could use some more bottom end.
Thanks.
I am not sure what the Gonk will show, but I think the car would like a 11:1 ish SLR and juice assuming a 2.72 1st gear. That would put you at a 4.11 gear. Make sure you have a timing retard and good fuel system for the nitrous, and let it rip.
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The biggest gain would come from switching those Edelbrock heads out for something that works well......BBM/Survival/TFS, etc. Picking up 50 cfm would do wonders.
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Thanks for all the info., much appreciated everyone, WerbyFord extra thank you for your time!
I still need to digest everything but here are a few more details and a picture of the engine build in progress. The adapters plus flanges are a total of 2" tall, there is 1.125" of horizontal offset in the mid-section (1" rise, 1.125" run)
1. Flex fan
2. Heads have good valve job, light porting - widened and smoothed runners just a bit, bowl blended/cleaned up, matched to headers and intake, left the floors alone, maybe removed 5cc of material per port, mostly at interfaces to match/blend back, took out about 4cc of material on the bore side un-shrouding
3. Intake has had mild clean up on all runners all the way through, matched to heads, all edges blended and rounded from the top of the spacer on down, opened up the flange area a bit to match adapters, lots of intake volume, been discussed a bit in prior threads, not sure of overall impact yet
4. Primary carb is in the rear, carbs face forward, don't let the tilt in the attached image bother you, in a T bird intake carb flanges sit nearly flat
5. 6 psi fuel from Carter mechanical
6. Not sure what to expect here but at 5500 rpm's things start to get unsteady, valves floating, timing, not enough fuel, or ? but I leave it alone up there for now since new build and still working out lower RPM tune
7. I think it is starving for air at higher rpm's with the 2 small filters under the scoop, not sure how to remedy that yet
Thanks.
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Interesting topic. I always wonder what it will take to make our old stuff run with newer cars, a pet peeve of mine is the realization that my Marauder could barely run with new Honda Pilots :)
First of all, have you actually weighed the Tbird? A 64 galaxie is 209" on a 119" wheelbase, those cars seem to always come in 4100-4200lbs. Realizing a Tbird is always going to be fairly loaded and whatnot, but Galaxies at that weight generally are PS/PB cars. A 65 Tbird is 205" on a 205" wheelbase so physically a smaller car. Just can't see how they'd have that much more sound deadener and such, as a "luxury" car, to weigh that much more?
SRTs are 12.0-12.3 at 112-114mph on street tires, ballpark. Definitely scooting considering they're a 4200-4300lb car as well. Have to believe a well tuned 445 with a stall and low ratio C6 would at least be able to keep up
Your combo seems pretty well matched, although I'm confused how you're running Holleys on the RPM Air Gap? All info I've seen says the Holleys are just too far offset to run adapters. I picked up one of those intakes so interested to hear.
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Picture shows carb. offset and setup, when one looks at the flow path down the 4 holes it is not ideal but not that bad in my opinion, this setup is a wild card and still unproven.
Not done tuning yet but I think I can get there, idle is rich, tip in is smooth, cruise to 50 is good A/F, cruise at 70 is getting lean, all in is ok to light lean after initial lean spot. So far it loves 3500 to 5000 rpm's. Overall I am struggling a bit to get good behavior at all RPM's, dialing in one area seems to impact the other, don't know the thing that well yet and been a long time since I played with Holley's and never worked a dual setup.
Have not weighed, just guesstimated from published data. PS/PB/AC, the uni-body frame is incredibly stiff, bumpers are massive, and yes, lots of trim, brackets, doohickeys, etc..
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OK, had to switch to different browser to see the pic. I'd get rid of the scoop for now just as a quick check, plenty of evidence that a lid too close to the air entry can cause issues, along with the small cleaners. See if it cleans up over 5500.
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If they are my Morel lifters, make sure you're not running a high viscosity oil.
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Yes, have done most but not all tuning with the scoop off, will get back to that.
Yes, Morel, using 10w-30, but I am wondering if things are already starting to float at 5500.
Stock Edelbrock beehive dual springs.
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Well, Edelbrocks don't come with beehives.
Depending on the heads, the valve spring pressures could be anything. You need to be around 150/350 for that camshaft.
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Ok, well tells you how much I know.
Machine shop said pressure was good, around 350 or just shy after the valve job.
May need to take a closer look at this as well.
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If it's valve float, you will be able to hear it. Sounds like a rev limiter/stutter box and power falls off greatly.
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Brent:
The 6AL limit is set at 6000, I'm feeling this at 5300 to 5500, not sure how to debug this piece.
To a point, the feeling is similar to a shudder I had when getting on it at lower rpm's and it was starved for gas but I have no clue really what is going on up there.
Thanks.
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Set your rev limiter up higher. MSD rev limiters are notorious for coming on 400-500 RPM below where you set them.
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Well that's good to know, thanks Jay. Have not played around at the higher rpm's, wanted to make sure everything was good up to 5k first but will do this of course and run it up there once and see.
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Fuel:
* Do you run a fuel pressure gage?
Ive run all 3 kinds -
* In-car mechanical with isolator
* In-car electric w sender
* External routed to outside the hood
Any of em will tell you the story. Aim a videocam at the pressure gage (and the others!) and see what's going on while your mind is on the road rushing by.
If you still have the tiny 5/16" frame fuel line then yes its running out of gas.
Not sure how hard that is to change on the Bird but on the 64 Gal it means pulling the body. So instead I just put a carter electric pusher pump back at the tank, to help the mech pump up front. At 400hp that solved it, fuel pressure stays right on 6psi.
* What size are those air filters? I just did an air filter study so have a better idea whats-what.
* Agree w Chilly, try it without the scoop, easy to try and you never know. Then you could also try stacking 2 elements to see if that makes a diff.
BTW- yes, the Gonkulator does say you can keep up with the kids - but note the first thing I did was "magically" the car hooks, even with 5.14 gears and NOSS. Not so easy in reality!
Birds in my experience are indeed heavier than Gals. Not sure why. Probably the same reason all today's cars are so heavy for their size.
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Can't you just mount an electric motor on each side of the rear axle, or a single motor just ahead of the differential?
Wasn't there a 60s Galaxie with an actual jet mounted to the differential? Sold as a kit?
Edit:
https://jalopnik.com/5481005/video-the-demented-rocket-propelled-genius-of-turbonique
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I changed the fuel line on my 61 Meteor, no pulling the body but it wasn't easy. I fed the straight tube through the tiny gap under the gas pedal area and bent the line in place. I'm sure a TBird is easier and a 3/8" tube would help.
I kind of think that doesn't fit under a low TBird hood so perhaps a 14-71 blower is still the answer, ;D
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The bird is a unibody if i remember things correctly
and the fuel line is just clamped to the floor
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Lots of room in the trunk for batteries!
Correct, unibody.
Lines are new 3/8" od stainless back to front, hopefully a free flowing filter near the tank.
Air filters are 2.5" tall and 8" or less diameter.
Autometer gauge shows 6.5 cold and around 4 hot, stable in the short term, drift is a sender heating problem I think. Mechanical gauge stays rock solid at 6 under the hood, not monitored during acceleration.
By the way, the "kid" in the red SRT with street slicks was at least 65, I like to roll my own, not really worried about all of this but at the same time I don't believe in participation medals.
Those things hook up well, I need to launch much harder.
Thanks.
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As others have said, gears will definitely help. Depending your experience with nitrous, you may want to look at getting a window switch. It will allow your nitrous to only come on in a certain RPM "window". (ex: 3,000-7,000) I'm assuming you have a WOT switch(usually comes with the kit) but once you use the 100hp set up you're going to want more and the window switch will add a little insurance.
Here's an example:
https://www.msdperformance.com/products/rpm_and_timing_controls/rpm_controls/parts/8956
There are several others out there including digital ones which do not require RPM chips.
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What brand are the various carb adapters if I may ask ??
Nice lookin mill :-)
Ahhh, went back an read ( 1.5" tall custom offset carb spacers to fit the Holley's on the Edelbrock, NOS included
1" 4 hole spacers above that )
Can one buy the offset adapters ??
Ricky.
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Ricky,
I made the adaptors myself, Edelbrock spray flange on top and moroso flange on the bottom.
In between, 5/16" thick aluminum bar stock fabricated using table saw and chop saw.
I have a set of prints I can post if you want, no guarantees, took 4 hours, mostly all the tapping by hand.
I must have typed wrong, 2" tall, 1" of flanges and 1" of custom spacer bar stock.
If you have access to a mill, much faster and better looking results could be had for cheap.
Thanks.
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Thanks much Thumperbird !!
Ricky.