FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Royce on April 27, 2018, 02:16:04 PM
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I am hoping to tap into some Holley expertise.. I have an old Holley list 1619. 4150 style.. Original application 58 Edsel.. I rebuilt it once.. A friend who is more familiar with Holleys did it again and for a 3rd time I sent it off to a "professional " rebuilder.. The same problem persists.. It is so pig rich at idle that it will barely run. Idle screws have no effect. float levels are OK. All gasket surfaces are true..Power valve is not the problem. I am wondering if I have some mismatched parts..
Front metering block is 2083 rear is 1834. I was wondering if someone had a reference source to confirm these are correct for this carb
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wrong gasket,....... metering block to throttle body?
i'm reaching.....
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Those are the correct blocks for that carb - a Edsel 410.
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I would first look and see if the primaries are too far open, getting you into the transition circuit. If they are, open the secondary idle and close the primary so you just see the start of the transition slot from the bottom, when it closed throttle, choke off.
If that is good, then I would likely go inside and see if the throttle body surface where it meets the metering block is warped. Best is to machine it flat, but you can be careful with a file as well. It's harder to cut a lot off than you'd think, so machining is better, but you can get there.
After that I would look very close at the gaskets they used, and make sure they are correct for the early style. Also, put carb clean through all 4 idle air bleeds with the carb apart and make sure they are clear.
If it is still rich after that, I would suspect a bad metering block, but usually it's one of those things
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To add to what My427Stang posted, note in this link a drawing (down a few posts) of the 'square' look of the secondary transfer slot. Be sure before doing much more that the secondary is set this way. Then try to set your air/ilde screws once again.
You may also want to purchase a replacement primary block as sometimes no amount of fooling around will fix a misbehaving carb. I'd do so after filing/machining down the old block first as noted previously to see if that trick works.
http://forums.y-blocksforever.com/Topic131647.aspx
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Well after some inspection and switching of parts my ancient Holley is running like it should. (Almost)
Following some suggestions from here and elsewhere. I put a gauge on the fuel pump and rigged gravity fuel to the carb.. Pump makes about 4.75 lb of pressure, and gravity feeding the carb did not help it at all. I removed the carb, disassembled it and started looking things over . The primary metering block to carb body gasket was very wet. Secondary side looked normal. I took the power valve out of the metering block and found out the threads are mangled . In addition the wrong gasket was used for the power valve.. I was going to chase the threads in the metering block but I find they are a very odd 1/2 x 28.. I have an old Holley 2bbl on the shelf of the same vintage that was rebuilt and never run.. I figured why not install that metering block and see what happens.. Before assembly I checked the throttle plate position in the bores.. Secondaries had the transfer slot completely covered. Primary had way too much slot showing. I set them by eyeball and put it all back together. I set the idle screws at 1.5 turns and fired it up. Engine started easily and settle to a good high idle.. After it warmed I kicked it down to about 800 rpm idle and hooked up a vacuum gauge to set the idle screws. As I was hooking up the gauge the engine started into a slow surging up and down. I remember form reading the Ford manual on setting up a 6v that this is a rich rolling idle (Ford's term) I had around 15 inches of vacuum but it would fluctuate as the idle goes up and down I started turning in the screws 1/4 turn at a time and vacuum started to increase. I ended up with the screws bottomed out and it is still a tad rich, but idles nicely at 600 rpm.. So it looks like the primary metering block is the problem, either the power valve does not seal or the metering block is warped.. The carb body has been planed flat so that is not an issue. I am guessing that smaller idle air bleeds in the 2bbl metering block are causing the rich idle, but the car can be driven without issue till I find a correct metering block.. Thanks for all the suggestions and advice.
RB
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Random thoughts:
-Power valve is 1/2-28
Taps are available but they are expensive, and well, if the threads are rough, a tap might not make it better. You can block off the PV without installing a power valve ya know :P Just block the signal hole.
-Stock Idle on that engine with that car was most likely 450-475rpm, these are not meant to idle at 800. I'll be home this weekend, I've got a Data sheet on that carb, also have a list 1619 on the shelf if you need me to measure anything.
I can also take a generic metering block and replicate the 1619 calibration on it, no biggie really, so could you, or anyone actually.
-You say smaller idle air bleeds in the 2v metering block, but metering blocks do not have idle air bleeds, those are in the main body. If you mean Idle feed restriction, that varies by calibration, but being 2v or 4v shouldn't matter. Emulsion setups for carbs prior to 1960 fluctuate wildly, really calibrations didn't get somewhat standardized until the early 60's.
-I like to pin gauge the hole for the idle mixture screws on older metering blocks. You'd be amazed at how off they can be.
-Older metering blocks I remove the emulsion tubes and replace them, same with the IFR if it is in the idle well. Trash there can make tuning impossible. Either snag the ifr with a drill bit and remove it, replace with a new brass restriction that is drilled to size, or relocate the ifr.
-I closely examined the photos from the one builder, I do not see High Speed air bleeds in the primary. Are they present? they should be there and around .028-.031 in size. In the picture I zoomed in on I only see the hole for the restriction but not the restriction itself..... if someone was blowing the carb out with high pressure air, they can easily blow out the old restriction, especially if it's clogged with trash.
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First thing I would do to restore the use of the mixture screws and lean out the idle would be to drill (2) .125 holes in the primary butterflys.
If your dist has vacuum advance and its hooked up to ported vacuum the diaghram could be fluctuating at that rpm and that good of a signal.
JMO...
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Taps needed for fine thread fasteners used in carburetors are readily available and affordable if you search for them. Here is the one you need for the power valve:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-28-1-2-x28-High-Quality-Plug-Tap-Gunsmithing-Others-Brand-New/163005264508?hash=item25f3def27c:g:eSIAAOSwKiZa1wjo
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Jared,
I bought several taps for Holley's that were supposed to be right and threw them in the trash. If the taper isn't correct, you'll run into trouble.
Drilling the throttle plates assumes that his issue is the primary being open overly much. If this isn't the case you'll end up with an engine idling at 1200 with the throttle totally closed, no transfer slot exposure at idle, and a huge stumble off idle.
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Thanks again for the insight Drew The metering block I installed is a 1737.. I ordered a 1/2 x 28 bottoming tap.. At this point the metering block is ruined, if the tap restores the threads great if not no loss. I bought a parts 1619 carb off of Ebay so I should have an extra metering block. One clue to me that even with the idle screws bottomed it is rich, is when I introduce a vacuum leak the engine picks up idle speed and smooths out
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First thing I would do to restore the use of the mixture screws and lean out the idle would be to drill (2) .125 holes in the primary butterflys.
This "could" work but I would consider it a last resort. I have a lot of Holleys on many different engines and displacements and cams and none have required drilling the butterflys. I would rather open up the idle air bleeds because they can be replaced easy. But even before that, I would put a thin wire in each of the metering block IFRs to lean out the idle. Quick, easy and adjustable. I'd start with a couple of individual pieces from #12 stranded wire.
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Chris, on an early holley like this the IFR will almost certainly be located in the idle well under the cup plug.
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very hard to clean under them. Even and ultrasonic cleaner and a variety of harsher cleaners don't always get it. You can buy a blank restriction or drill it out and relocate the ifr.
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Well then - that's different.
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Up until a couple years ago we had "air care" here.I drilled lots of butterflys for air care and I have drilled lots to get the mixture screws to work again..I have never had to undo what I did not have I ever had a engine idle to high because of it..I see no down side to it and as Holley does it in the factory on numerous carbs I don't see it as a last resort...We all have our tricks......JMO
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(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/824/41906650201_45dba441a2_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26R9x6K)IMG_0652 (https://flic.kr/p/26R9x6K) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/828/41906648201_4950ea51be_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26R9wvg)IMG_0656 (https://flic.kr/p/26R9wvg) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
Royce, I'd download the images so you can zoom in, but the calibration is there.
If you need me to scan anything, let me know.
Other thought.... it mentions that List 1848 is a suitable replacement, if you can't make the 1619 work, that would be a decent alternative.
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Thanks Drew That is very helpful.
.I have obtained another 1619 parts carb . I will look it over check the specs and see if installing that primary metering block cures the problems.
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(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/852/43555006722_a049158aa9_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29mNN4L)IMG_0885 (https://flic.kr/p/29mNN4L) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/922/28714657667_1884827e43_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/KKq8jB)IMG_0887 (https://flic.kr/p/KKq8jB) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/861/42697959135_cea5438e98_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2845cFe)IMG_0891 (https://flic.kr/p/2845cFe) by Drew Pojedinec (https://www.flickr.com/photos/154777202@N07/), on Flickr
I tinkered with this carb for about 5-6 hours.
I got it to idle smoothly in gear at 450rpms on my 390.
There is a slight haze, tho it's 10:30pm, so hard to see to be honest. Will play with that more in the morning.
I find the primary boosters like to come on SUPER early.
Last photo.... the two core 1619's I have laying about all have the holes drilled above the throttle plates. On yours they are soldered shut.
I scratched my head about this for a bit.
Main air bleed in the main body is claimed to be .120, I measured it at .109
Typically on a modern carburetor of this venturi size the main air bleed would be .031 for the primaries and around .026-.028 on the secondaries.
Now, a lil carb pressure talkie talk.....
This carb has no lower emulsion bleed, just an upper .028, no angle channel bleed, but a bleed between the idle well and main well @ .028. This is common on early 4150's and I use a comparable setup on my 2x4's.
However, the large main air bleed puts a ton of air into the main well which pushes fuel out of the boosters. I think the drilled holes in the venturi above the throttle plates reduce the signal that the boosters see... makes sense, as some of the vacuum will be bleeding out of these holes instead of pulling at the boosters, this combined with the large main air bleed would have the boosters come online at a normal time, but of course, yours are soldered shut.
Yes yes, what does this have to do with idle? Well there are ALWAYS vapors coming from the boosters, as there is always flow through via the main air bleed, even if all holes are above float level. Kinda like putting an air gun above a puddle.... it'll still carry vapor/fluid with it.
These carbs do not have emulsion tubes, maybe this was a Holley experiment on over emulsifying via bleed air pressure, and they drilled the bypass holes to delay main circuit activation.
So a solution to try, I could either drill out the old holes in the venturi, or I can drill and tap the main air bleed and install a smaller size, I'll start with .031 and go from there.
Your call Royce, my gut feeling is reducing the main air bleed is the way to go.
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Drew, you are the man.. Do what you think will work best...I noticed those holes.. I figured some previous owner had plugged them. Never have see a carb with holes in that area. As long as it idles cleanly and accelerates smoothly I would be very happy.. It is fascinating that the older Holleys are so much different internally...
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Ain't that much different really. Seems 57-59 they tried out a lot of ideas. By the time 1960-61 rolled around they settled on one particular way to do things.
Anyway here is it idling at 11pm around the time I knocked off for the day.
https://www.facebook.com/AirFuelSParkTech/videos/294151977990207/
I notice also that despite being no cracks the baseplate needs to be torqued down very evenly, undoing one carb stud results in a hissing sound and some leaked fuel.
I'm leaving Thursday and may or may not have enough time to finish getting this one where I feel it's perfect. Worst case scenario I'll snag a baseplate from a different core and try it out.
Lotta little tinkering, swapping butterflies, etc trying to kinda get things to simmer down. Seems on shutdown I still get some fuel out of one of the transfer slots too, either way I'll get it, be it in the next day or when I get home at the end of August.
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You see those venturi side holes in some of the old carbs. Something of an oddball deal for sure. Never learned for certain, but pretty much has to be what Drew surmises - a signal kill for the mains to serve as a delay. The side holes disappeared pretty fast as Holley went to more modern (as in 1960s modern...) calibrations. Somebody probably realized that unfiltered air and accumulated dirt and deposits would plug those holes up in service and render the things useless.