FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Buckwheat on April 25, 2018, 10:04:28 PM
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I am in the process of putting together a 69 Mustang, pro touring type build and looking for thoughts on how to modify the engine. It’s a 428CJ with TKO 600, full TCI suspension, 3.89 gears, etc. The CJ was built by Knieriem racing engines in Louisville but it’s close to stock, I have the build sheets. The internals are all stock, the only mods are Comp 280H cam, upgraded rocker system and Performer RPM intake. I have a set of Hooker Super Comp headers that I will run and plan to use an EFI instead of a carb and a good ignition system. Plans are at a minimum to pull the heads, port match intake & exhaust, clean up the runners, etc. Thinking that should put me between 400 & 450 HP? I am thinking that the cam is a little too mild for my setup. I was hoping for 500 but don’t think I can get there without going to a Stroker kit or nitrous. The car will be driven, not a garage queen. All thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.
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I put together a 390 that made 500 HP several years ago. It was .030 over, and used Dove F5 heads and the concomitant Dove 'spider' intake. I talked to the folks at Comp, requesting a solid roller cam that had the idle characteristics of the factory 'AA' (850 RPM) and matched the street driveability of my bought-new '64 Custom/427. They spec'd a 242-248, .658-.666 on 110. I thought it seemed a bit much, but on the dyno, after 15-20 minutes, the idle fell right in line. It pulled hard to 7500 where it flattened out.
The heads were done as Jim Dove suggested, flowed +/- 235 on the intake side. We used a set of Ferrea 2.100/1.65 valves and matched to the intake, which was whittled about 2-3 inches inside before the casting was of a size that made further work unnecessary. On the dyno we used a known-good 850 Holley, and had the Holley EFI setting in a box ready to go on.
What you have in mind is certainly do-able but you'll need to make sure your components are all matched so as to properly work together. Good luck!
KS
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I am in the process of putting together a 69 Mustang, pro touring type build and looking for thoughts on how to modify the engine. It’s a 428CJ with TKO 600, full TCI suspension, 3.89 gears, etc. The CJ was built by Knieriem racing engines in Louisville but it’s close to stock, I have the build sheets. The internals are all stock, the only mods are Comp 280H cam, upgraded rocker system and Performer RPM intake. I have a set of Hooker Super Comp headers that I will run and plan to use an EFI instead of a carb and a good ignition system. Plans are at a minimum to pull the heads, port match intake & exhaust, clean up the runners, etc. Thinking that should put me between 400 & 450 HP? I am thinking that the cam is a little too mild for my setup. I was hoping for 500 but don’t think I can get there without going to a Stroker kit or nitrous. The car will be driven, not a garage queen. All thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.
My guess is that you're sitting at around 400-425 hp right now. I've done a few stock 428CJ builds, with the only upgrades being modern pistons and a different camshaft, and they usually end up making around 420 hp.
A 280H kinda sits on the fence of being mild for a driver. If you add more camshaft, you will push the horsepower peak up higher and take away power from the bottom end. With a 3.89 gear and an overdrive trans, you have the option of getting a little more rambunctious, but power brakes (that need more vacuum) and driving manners will curb what you can do.
Head work always helps and whatever you can add in that way will help you make horsepower. Without switching to aftermarket heads or adding cubic inches, you're probably going to be pinned at around the 450-460 hp mark.
FWIW, just doing some bench racing here, there's a forum member who I just did a custom camshaft for. His previous combination was a 428CJ with box-stock Edelbrock heads, a Performer RPM intake, and a Comp 294S camshaft. Jay dyno'd it several years ago and it made 468 hp @ 5800 with 489 lb-ft of torque. With a little head work, your CJ heads could have the same performance as the Edelbrocks. I sent him one of my custom hydraulic rollers and it picked up about 30 hp and 30 lb-ft of torque. He dyno'd again and it made 495 hp @ 5700 and 519 lb-ft.
I wouldn't expect the same results for you as his camshaft was a little wilder than what I would pick for most "drivers" but my point in all of this rambling is that you could probably sneak up close to 475-480 hp with a little head work and the right combination. Guys tend to forget how much horsepower that really is.
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Say Brent, what is your guess on how much more hp (from cleaned-up iron heads or similar Edelbrock heads) our poster would get from BBM heads, mild clean-up, port match?
I recognize that the optimum cam, C/R, etc. may not be achieved here due to reluctance to pull the short block for decking, maybe higher c/r pistons, etc.. Still, perhaps he'd benefit more by the BBM's than the other heads.
I am in the process of putting together a 69 Mustang, pro touring type build and looking for thoughts on how to modify the engine. It’s a 428CJ with TKO 600, full TCI suspension, 3.89 gears, etc. The CJ was built by Knieriem racing engines in Louisville but it’s close to stock, I have the build sheets. The internals are all stock, the only mods are Comp 280H cam, upgraded rocker system and Performer RPM intake. I have a set of Hooker Super Comp headers that I will run and plan to use an EFI instead of a carb and a good ignition system. Plans are at a minimum to pull the heads, port match intake & exhaust, clean up the runners, etc. Thinking that should put me between 400 & 450 HP? I am thinking that the cam is a little too mild for my setup. I was hoping for 500 but don’t think I can get there without going to a Stroker kit or nitrous. The car will be driven, not a garage queen. All thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.
My guess is that you're sitting at around 400-425 hp right now. I've done a few stock 428CJ builds, with the only upgrades being modern pistons and a different camshaft, and they usually end up making around 420 hp.
A 280H kinda sits on the fence of being mild for a driver. If you add more camshaft, you will push the horsepower peak up higher and take away power from the bottom end. With a 3.89 gear and an overdrive trans, you have the option of getting a little more rambunctious, but power brakes (that need more vacuum) and driving manners will curb what you can do.
Head work always helps and whatever you can add in that way will help you make horsepower. Without switching to aftermarket heads or adding cubic inches, you're probably going to be pinned at around the 450-460 hp mark.
FWIW, just doing some bench racing here, there's a forum member who I just did a custom camshaft for. His previous combination was a 428CJ with box-stock Edelbrock heads, a Performer RPM intake, and a Comp 294S camshaft. Jay dyno'd it several years ago and it made 468 hp @ 5800 with 489 lb-ft of torque. With a little head work, your CJ heads could have the same performance as the Edelbrocks. I sent him one of my custom hydraulic rollers and it picked up about 30 hp and 30 lb-ft of torque. He dyno'd again and it made 495 hp @ 5700 and 519 lb-ft.
I wouldn't expect the same results for you as his camshaft was a little wilder than what I would pick for most "drivers" but my point in all of this rambling is that you could probably sneak up close to 475-480 hp with a little head work and the right combination. Guys tend to forget how much horsepower that really is.
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I don’t have power brakes. I have a Wilwood 7-1 pedal manual setup with dual master cylinders, 7/8” & 3/4” for front & rear, with 4 piston calipers all around.
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Say Brent, what is your guess on how much more hp (from cleaned-up iron heads or similar Edelbrock heads) our poster would get from BBM heads, mild clean-up, port match?
I recognize that the optimum cam, C/R, etc. may not be achieved here due to reluctance to pull the short block for decking, maybe higher c/r pistons, etc.. Still, perhaps he'd benefit more by the BBM's than the other heads.
I am in the process of putting together a 69 Mustang, pro touring type build and looking for thoughts on how to modify the engine. It’s a 428CJ with TKO 600, full TCI suspension, 3.89 gears, etc. The CJ was built by Knieriem racing engines in Louisville but it’s close to stock, I have the build sheets. The internals are all stock, the only mods are Comp 280H cam, upgraded rocker system and Performer RPM intake. I have a set of Hooker Super Comp headers that I will run and plan to use an EFI instead of a carb and a good ignition system. Plans are at a minimum to pull the heads, port match intake & exhaust, clean up the runners, etc. Thinking that should put me between 400 & 450 HP? I am thinking that the cam is a little too mild for my setup. I was hoping for 500 but don’t think I can get there without going to a Stroker kit or nitrous. The car will be driven, not a garage queen. All thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.
My guess is that you're sitting at around 400-425 hp right now. I've done a few stock 428CJ builds, with the only upgrades being modern pistons and a different camshaft, and they usually end up making around 420 hp.
A 280H kinda sits on the fence of being mild for a driver. If you add more camshaft, you will push the horsepower peak up higher and take away power from the bottom end. With a 3.89 gear and an overdrive trans, you have the option of getting a little more rambunctious, but power brakes (that need more vacuum) and driving manners will curb what you can do.
Head work always helps and whatever you can add in that way will help you make horsepower. Without switching to aftermarket heads or adding cubic inches, you're probably going to be pinned at around the 450-460 hp mark.
FWIW, just doing some bench racing here, there's a forum member who I just did a custom camshaft for. His previous combination was a 428CJ with box-stock Edelbrock heads, a Performer RPM intake, and a Comp 294S camshaft. Jay dyno'd it several years ago and it made 468 hp @ 5800 with 489 lb-ft of torque. With a little head work, your CJ heads could have the same performance as the Edelbrocks. I sent him one of my custom hydraulic rollers and it picked up about 30 hp and 30 lb-ft of torque. He dyno'd again and it made 495 hp @ 5700 and 519 lb-ft.
I wouldn't expect the same results for you as his camshaft was a little wilder than what I would pick for most "drivers" but my point in all of this rambling is that you could probably sneak up close to 475-480 hp with a little head work and the right combination. Guys tend to forget how much horsepower that really is.
He'd make his 500 hp goal, I'm pretty confident. However, it would change the look of the engine.
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I don’t have power brakes. I have a Wilwood 7-1 pedal manual setup with dual master cylinders, 7/8” & 3/4” for front & rear, with 4 piston calipers all around.
At what speed/rpm do you do most of your driving?
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My 1/50 of a dollar - just remember I like 4.56 gears and 4000 stall as "street". With the 3.89 and the manual, I'd push up the cam and see where you can get. A little head work never hurts unless you get carried away and don't know what you're doing. EFI is fine - but I'd put a dual Ed 600 setup on it and cam it up some.
Like your brake selection - 69 doesn't need power brakes IMHO. My wife races a 351C @ 460 HP 70 model with stock style manual brakes and doesn't have any issues.
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Driving speed will be all over the place. Track days, driving to work, cruise events etc. I am game on changing the cam and intake. I would rather not swap the heads or pull the rotating assembly unless I go with a Stroker kit. Brent, what cam would you recommend? I would rather stay hydraulic. Falcon, why the dual carb over EFI?
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Flat tappet or roller?
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Yes.
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A roller will cost you more as you will potentially need new valve springs, lifters, pushrods, and a distributor gear.....but there is no break-in involved.
Do you know the compression ratio?
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Stock which is 10.6? Heads and block were square decked during the build. I will pull a valve cover and to get details on the rocker and spring setup. I am not worried about a few hundred bucks, just don’t want to go crazy on it.
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It will be more than a few hundred bucks.
Just generalizing prices here for the sake of the forum, but a custom flat tappet cam with lifters would be around $320. A custom hydraulic roller with lifters, valve springs, distributor gear, and pushrods would be around $1250.
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It will be more than a few hundred bucks.
Just generalizing prices here for the sake of the forum, but a custom flat tappet cam with lifters would be around $320. A custom hydraulic roller with lifters, valve springs, distributor gear, and pushrods would be around $1250.
That's a good guesstimate - I'm around $1500 for the solid roller with pressure oiling lifters, cam, springs. But IMHO it's worth it to move off the flat tappet parts.
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$1250 doesn’t scare me if it’s the right way to go.
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I'm not going to say it's the *right* way to go, but it would certainly be easiest on startup. No break-in procedures. With your compression ratio, I would rather see you with a hydraulic roller lobe to help out.
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Hydraulic roller is good, I sent you an email if you would prefer to quote that way.
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I'm a big fan of hydro rollers but here, unless our poster is truly wanting a pretty hot engine, that big price difference could be put to better use elsewhere. Put another way, if that level of $ is acceptable, go roller. Otherwise, if $ are more precious, head work, a new intake, maybe a carb, better rockers and shafts and a hotter flat tappet cam would be a better investment.
Funny, but we all struggle with these kinds of decisions on not only how many $ to spend but where they should or could be spent.
I'm not going to say it's the *right* way to go, but it would certainly be easiest on startup. No break-in procedures. With your compression ratio, I would rather see you with a hydraulic roller lobe to help out.
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I ran flat for years and after converting one over to a roller, I'll sit before I run a flat tappet again. The rollers and the selection of profiles are just so much better for so many applications. No break in and if you upgrade the cam, lifters go right back in. If have over $1100 in roller lifters in two engines - I've easily spent that much replacing flat tappets over the years.
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Stroke it
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I am a little late to the discussion, but I would base the cam on use and which 5th gear you run.
You can go pretty rowdy with a 3.89/2.78 1st gear in a TKO (assuming it's a 600, if its a 3.27 geared early or TKO-500 I'd be looking at it differently)
However, 5th gear really matters, if it's a .64 OD, you will actually want a little less cam (or at least more LSA) because when you are lumbering around you want it to be a little cleaner. FWIW, in my TKO-600, 489FE, I actually added gear from 3.70 to 4.11 and gained mileage and drivability (as well as acceleration) everywhere. The .64 / 3.70 combo was just wasn't perfect when at lower speeds on highways
If you have a .82 600, then you can go a bit more rowdy as the final drive works out to 3.19, so you will still be spinning it pretty decent on the highway.
FWIW, my recommendation for a 433 inch with a .64 and 3.89s would likely be high 230s @ .050, mid 280s intake, 290-ish exhuast, HR, 108 LSA on 104, unless you wanted to go 110 to tame the idle. Not a lot different than what you have, but a little more .050, earlier overall, and likely sneak a bit more lift out of it.
I also agree with 2 other points made. 1 - Brent won't steer you wrong, and 2 - More head, more better. I don't think a stock Edel will gain you much unless your CJ heads are beat or valve job poorly done, but regardless, more flow without making the port too big is muy bueno
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Not too late, thanks for the input. Trans has .64 od, haven’t picked out tire size yet which will make a little difference on cruise rpm. I understand the benefits and plan on spending a lot of time on the heads. What are the details on your 489 FE build?
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Sort of a long story, but induction on mine has changed a bit over the years, but the bottom end has stayed the same since I put it together in 2006
4.277 X 4.25, Diamond Pistons, 10.7:1, SCAT crank and rods. .002 below deck, Erson E240322 solid flat tappet, Heads are 2006 era Craft Stage 2 that have had more work done to them, Erson rockers. Specs on the cam are 286/294, 242/246, 110 LSA on 106, .595 lift, however, over the years I have gone from the original .028 lash down to .014 which livens it up a bit.
Originally, I built this combo with a 3.70 gear, TKO-600 with .64 OD, a ported Edelbrock RPM, 1000 Holley, recurved Unilite and 3 inch exhaust with Flowmasters Later I changed to Borla mufflers which made it much easier on the ears and I think I picked up more midrange. It was very nice to drive and had plenty of power, but I found myself driving by ear on the highway and I would just end up going way too fast. Sort of creeping up to 80+ which isn't a big deal in Nebraska, but the guys I hung out with didn't have the power or gearing to run that fast for long distances, so I would always have to hold back on the highway. I also wanted to play around with other combos.
I then regeared to 4.11 and it was better everywhere, both mileage and power (I run 275/60-15 rear tires). Then I added EFI, I run port injected EFI based off a 1993 Mustang OEM computer with a Quarterhorse piggy back chip. The EFI also controls the timing, I run a ported Victor intake now and a 1200 cfm throttle body. After the EFI, I started tightening the lash and the engine liked it. The EFI basically made the cam act a lot milder so I was able to be a little more aggressive with lash.
Haven't been down a 1/4 mile, but it runs very strong, if I roll on the throttle to WOT, it comes up on cam in 3rd gear and will break the tires loose on a highway on ramp and sort of drift as long as I will hold it. Driving it for so long it's predictable and can still get the heart pumping
For yours, I think the 55 or so cube difference and less rear gear should drive a little less cam, assuming you plan to put some miles on it. However, assuming nice early cam timing to help 5th gear, your advertised should stay about the same as mine with the compression you are running. Additionally, the smaller the engine the more you want to tighten LSA to help with WOT torque, but you need to think about it a bit, because too tight can be sloppy at low RPM in 5th when you are cruising. My hunch is a limit of about 70-75 degrees of overlap after you pick your lobes, and lower is better if you plan to cruise more than race.
Regardless, hate to beat this so hard, but I think you need to either do a max effort valve job and bowl clean up on your heads or go with aftermarket. I don't think a stock set of Edels are worth much to you over a well prepared set of CJ heads, but a good higher end set of of alum heads will make more power everywhere without hurting behavior in 5th.
As far as the discussion on EFI or carb, If you are going to drive the wheels off this car, a good big dollar EFI can't be beat. The throttle body kits, not as much, but will still be much more drivable and allow many benefits, fan control, idle control with a/c etc, but aren't that controllable and likely won't add WOT power. That being said, I had no issues doing anything with the carb version of the 489 and my F100 with both the stroker and the mild 390 in it now behaves great once it warms up. The difference in the EFI is mileage and cold start and immediate drive, like a new car. The 445 will get a throttle body EFI kit eventually though
Not to beat a dead horse, but for a second reference, my truck motor, a 445 with ported iron heads, RPM and a 1000 Holley, 10:1, I ran a solid flat tappet cam very similar to what you have now but quite a bit more lift. It by no means acted like a truck motor, it pulled very hard and was pretty rev happy for what it was. It had less compression, but more head flow than you, and a bit more cubes. (I say was because I had some machining issues and it's out right now) However, with your compression, I think your combo as it is, is going to be very fussy on pump gas. You could retard the cam a bunch (6+ degrees) or recam. I think the right choice is a new cam because you can add lift and add exhaust lobe, retarding the cam would indeed help fuel tolerance, but the cam is a bit of a snoozer and would get soft in 5th gear rocked that far back
Sort of guessing at your plan, and sorry for the long post, but fire away if you have questions
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Thanks for the input. You are running a really tall tire (28”), I expect to run something closer to a 26” which would put our axle ratio almost identical. I am running 3” exhaust back to spin tech mufflers, then 2 1/2” out the side in front of the rear tires.