FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: chilly460 on April 18, 2018, 02:52:11 PM
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I'm still buttoning up my current 390 with BBM heads, but sort of stepped in another shortblock that I want to use to put together a collection of misfit parts.
I have been porting a set of C1AE heads and will be using them for this build, I want an old school combo with iron heads and solid flat tappet cam. Part of this is driven because that's what I want, part of it is cost. This is very much being done on the cheap, but I don't want a low rpm combo, wanted something that will make decent power around 6000rpm and can shift at 6500 if really needed.
I lucked into a Edelbrock 7505 dual quad intake for $150, and while I was picking up the intake I picked up a freshly rebuilt 390 longblock that had been sitting in bad storage, never fired. It's going to need a hone on one cylinder, one piston was stuck but I've freed with a lot of Kroil, but the cylinders are fresh otherwise. It has brand new SpeedPro .030" L2291F pistons, and had a brand new XE274H cam and lifters, new Comp timing chain, Melling pump in it with stock reconditioned rods. C4AE heads with fresh valve job, stainless 2.03"/1.53" valves, some generic springs, and positive seals. $200 for the longblock, I couldn't resist.
I also have a 428 crank that I picked up last year that's been turned but will need polish, so plan is to use it to make a 416" from this shortblock, and either shelving or selling parts of the longblock. I have Autotec pistons on the way, Crower EDM lifters, as well as a 247/256 .583/600 108 solid flat from Brent.
So Edelbrock 7505, 10.5:1 cr, 247/256 solid flat, C1 heads ported to go 280/185ish, and 1 3/4" headers, 1.5/1.5/3mm ring package and a 3.98" crank.
450hp out of the question, 500ftlbs? Peaks at 6000/4300 respectively? I want a "hotrod" motor so didn't care about idle, fuel mileage, or need for cheap gas.
Power estimate from a solid flat tappet combos listed by Brent and Paulie, acknowledging the heads I'm putting together likely aren't going to be as good as theirs
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I would think it 450 doable with what you have at 416 cubes ... what size carbs are you using on the 2x4
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Well thinking it’ll be close to 427 medium riser performance so I believe a pair of the 750 Performers would be closest, taking edelbrock vs Holley performance i to consideration
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Whatever hp it makes it sounds like a super fun build!
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Yep, it’s fun for me to try to piece one together from used parts and forum deals where possible. Pistons aren’t exactly cheap stuff but not many options for a 410 combo. I’ll be combing Carlisle and the forum for rockers, valves, few other pieces that are needed. It’s so easy to make big power nowadays that it’s tempting to buy new parts, and I’ve done that, but it’ll be interesting to see how a iron headed flat tappet deal runs.
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Chilly,
Your build closely resembles my trucks 390 build from back when. It's posted in the proven build section under "390 pump gas deal". Very similar cam, heads etc. some differences would be the dual quad intake, and 428 crank, but it was a dyno proven 453hp and 447 lb ft of torque 6300/4700 rpm peaks, but that was also with 2" primary tube/3.5 collector fenderwell headers, when I tested my trucks 2wd 1-3/4 x 3" headers they were down 10-12 lb ft and hp across the whole test range from the fender shell exit headers. You didn't speak of valvetrain but that's one area where I did spend some money on good shafts, TI retainers, HS rockers, arp studs and end stands.
Good luck with the build.
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450 hp, yes. 500 ft/lbs? No, more like 450-460.
450hp out of the question, 500ftlbs? Peaks at 6000/4300 respectively? I want a "hotrod" motor so didn't care about idle, fuel mileage, or need for cheap gas.
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Probably right, I was using this as a comp http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=5039.0
I'll have more compression which I thought would help, but have to think that his Felony heads would make more torque than large port low risers, and a somewhat smaller cam may build more torque. 450ftlbs probably more realistic...
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Chilly,
Your build closely resembles my trucks 390 build from back when. It's posted in the proven build section under "390 pump gas deal". Very similar cam, heads etc. some differences would be the dual quad intake, and 428 crank, but it was a dyno proven 453hp and 447 lb ft of torque 6300/4700 rpm peaks, but that was also with 2" primary tube/3.5 collector fenderwell headers, when I tested my trucks 2wd 1-3/4 x 3" headers they were down 10-12 lb ft and hp across the whole test range from the fender shell exit headers. You didn't speak of valvetrain but that's one area where I did spend some money on good shafts, TI retainers, HS rockers, arp studs and end stands.
Good luck with the build.
Thanks, Cody, that is a very similar build. I'm still looking into rockers, I'd like to go OEM but by the time I find a set and make sure the adjusters are solid, and put end stands and spacers on them, it's creeping up on the price of a HS setup.
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You'd have to purchase end stands and spacers even if you did get a set of HS rockers, so the OEM still may be a cheaper route, and still get the job done.
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Ahhh, I see it now. HS sells a "heavy duty" option with end stands, at least according to the pic in summit, but it's $1300. I didn't realize the standard setup didn't have end stands. Thanks for the heads up.
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Ahhh, I see it now. HS sells a "heavy duty" option with end stands, at least according to the pic in summit, but it's $1300. I didn't realize the standard setup didn't have end stands. Thanks for the heads up.
You will need good end supports regardless of the rockers you use or you could end up with shaft breakage problems
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Hey Chilly, that sounds like a really fun project. It'll probably make more power than you think.
I've got a junkpile project too. It all started with the purchase of a set standard bore Arias flat top 428 pistons from a FE Forum member.It was a really good deal I couldn't (but should have) pass up. Had the machine shop sonic 3 390 blocks before one was found that'd have .100 walls all around at 4.13. Recently, after Mrs.-T bought me an Ebay Chineese sonic checker for Christmas, I checked the cylinders myself and found 2 at less than .100...with a low of .079. Gonna do a half fill and run it. Not only is this my first (and last) attempt at getting 4.13 out of a 390 block, it's my first use of block filler.
The rest of the shortblock will consist of C1AE-B rods, and a 1U crank that got junkpiled because one rod journal got ground too wide and the fillet radius is pretty much gone. Fun!
A used single pattern solid flat tappet cam that I ran in my Hi Riser in 1985 (.595 lift and 300 advertised duration) and some C3AE-D 427 Low Riser heads, along with a used "pre-stretched" timing chain from the junk drawer round out the long block.
Gonna be topped by my Quad Dual M/T cross ram.
Cool, man!
Anyway, I hope you'll have as much fun as I am putting yours together!
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Are you putting 2.09/1.655" valves in the C1 heads?
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Not sure on valves, I have 2.09 / 1.65 set I could pull from the edelbrocks I just pulled off my 390 which would be “free”. But I also have a set of CJ heads I’d rather use them for and run 2.15 or so if possible in the C1s, want to get it to breathe. I’m sure 2.09 is big enough but if 2.15s will help may do that.
I
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I don't know, but my feeling is something like 470 hp and 490 ft/lbs.
paulie
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peaks like 6200 and 4400 rpm?
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Sounds feasible and peaks seem in the ballpark, lot will be determined by whether I have a clue or not on the head porting, love to see 280cfm if I can
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Sounds feasible and peaks seem in the ballpark, lot will be determined by whether I have a clue or not on the head porting, love to see 280cfm if I can
Yes, good heads are critical.
JMO,
paulie
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You said you don't care about cheap gas? Does that mean race gas or high octane pump gas or?
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Just meant I don’t care if it requires 92 oct
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I understand. So I'm thinking you want a true 10.5:1. Or close to it. Not just calculated but measured. Not saying you wouldn't do that. Just thinking out loud. A lot of people think they have a certain compression ratio and it ends up lower in reality because the deck height wasn't actually measured. Or the chamber wasn't actually measured. I once thought I had a 10:1 engine, but it was actually about 9.3:1 because my chambers were much larger than advertised. I don't know the advertised duration of the cam you mentioned, but it sounds like with 92 octane you could run 10.5:1.
Might as well get as much as you can.
JMO,
paulie
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What is this 416 going in? What rear gear and tranny? What stall if automatic?
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Yep, this would be a "true" 10.5CR with chamber volume measured, "crevice" volume figured, etc.
416 would most likely go in 63 Merc, 4.10 with a TKO 500. Although a little heavy, plenty of gear and obviously wouldn't be trying to drive around town lugging it. Also on the lookout for mid 60s F100 which would be other possible chassis, that would be Toploader/4.10 type of deal.
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Yeah, that is plenty of gear, even for a big car. So the true 10.5:1 compression is more feasible. Sounds like a fun combo. If your heads turn out good it might turn more rpm than you would think at first. 6500 rpm sounds easy to me. Maybe a tad more.
JMO,
paulie
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We will see, I wanted a combo that is focused more on power and not as concerned as being a "nice" street motor. I know this is still relatively calm compared to some combos, but it has to be just livable enough to pull the overdrive, but with the compression and cam I'm not expecting to be able to lug it around at 1800. Manual brakes and now manual steering, so with the stick I can get away with some cam.
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Hey Chilly- Are you planning to dyno this 416? Your C1 heads sound similar to the ones I did for my 416 Highboy project. 2.15/1.65 valves. It takes a lot of rubbin' to make those valves work right in C1 casting. Kinda curious what kind of steam it's gonna make. Nice build man!
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I am planning to dyno it, mostly because I'd really like to know how the backyard port job works. If it doesn't make good power, I can blame the dyno :) If it makes too much power, others can blame the dyno :)
I will have to post pics of the C1 heads once I'm done with the 390 I'm working on at the moment. I've done quite a bit on the intake side, plan is to get them rough cut for the 2.15s so I can blend to the seat, then have the valve job done, if that's possible. No way I can see being able to blend it without nicking a finished seat.
There's only one shop with a dyno local to me here in Richmond, he said he can put an FE on his dyno but we'll see about headers and such when it comes time to actually do it.
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just do it , cool to hear of a build like you are doing .
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So Chilly,
I love the idea of a rowdy 416, but why not make a rowdy 416 with BBM heads and do the experimental motor with the 390? Power will be up significantly.
The other option of course is if the 416 with iron heads behaves the way you want it, you can swap heads later for a little more, but with the good parts in the 416, seems like a win
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On the valve train deal I wouldn't normally recommend this but it's been done with good results for years in a truck pulling engine I put together, rules mandated stock appearing valvetrain. It's just got a set of pump builders hd shafts, stock aluminum stands, stock bolts, and new stock adjustable rockers from Napa. It's been to 6500-7000 rpm for 15 sometimes 20 seconds at a time. Also has some drag strip passes/street miles on it. Anyway, good luck with what ever direction you decide to go. You should have a little more torque than my build did, hp would be a question mark, possibly a little more also. BTW my heads had 2.03/1.56 stock OEM valves. By the math on paper using my build as the reference point with hp per cube 396 versus 416 would get you 474hp/470tq, with adding the 428 crank. Would be fun to dyno and compare. Have fun with it.
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So Chilly,
I love the idea of a rowdy 416, but why not make a rowdy 416 with BBM heads and do the experimental motor with the 390? Power will be up significantly.
The other option of course is if the 416 with iron heads behaves the way you want it, you can swap heads later for a little more, but with the good parts in the 416, seems like a win
Ross, that would definitely make more sense!! Issue is I literally stumbled on this shortblock and intake, the 390 is buttoned up and I need to get the car rolling. The 416 will need block and crank work so no way it would go together without losing part of summer. Let’s me take my time on the 416
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Thanks again, Cody. Plan is to walk the rows at Ford Carlisle and see what kind of FE rocker setup I can find, I like the OEM with endstsnds option to go along with the budget theme.