FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: N2950H on April 08, 2018, 11:39:34 AM
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Hey guys, new member here but have been lurking for a while and reading all I can. I'm building a 482 street motor for a 63 Galaxie boxtop and I'm hoping to see 650-700 HP on pump gas while maintaining decent street manners. Being a 90% street motor I'd like to see max power at or below 6500 RPM. This is where I could use some guidance in selecting some well balanced components.
I have purchased no parts yet, but this is my plan:
Bear Block (iron)
Barry's rotating assy (4.250 x 4.250)
Barry's CNC ported FElony heads
2x4 intake (undecided, perhaps BBM Tunnel Wedge?)
Carbs (undecided, preferably something looking relatively original)
Cam (undecided, will probably select this last)
T&D race rockers
Headers (absolutely no idea)
C6 trans
Some questions I have related to parts selection:
1) I want to select an intake (hopefully 2x4 config) that takes full advantage of Barry's CNC heads but is also street friendly. Are there any proven combos out there making close to 700 HP with around a 10.5 CR?
2) I have to believe whatever intake I settle on will need a bit of work to match those heads, is that something I can entrust to any decent shop here in the Pacific Northwest or is there a go-to person/shop for this?
3) I'm an EFI guy looking to mess with carbs for the first time in 20 years. How does one even know where to start on selecting a carb size?
4) Lastly, am I asking for too much with the pump gas restraint? In the end it's just a street car and the 700 HP mark is just for bragging rights. If I need to "settle" for 600 HP it won't be the end of the world. If 600 is doable with Barry's as-cast heads, I would think I could get to 700 with the CNC version and the proper intake/carb setup.
Appreciate the guidance.
Chris
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Here is 660-ish version, another 50 will take some compression and RPM. Maybe consider more cubes?
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2670.0
and one with a little more , 680-ish, from Brent
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=2688.0
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Here is a 482 inch FE that made 700 hp on pump gas. The big solid roller might not fit into your plans but it sounds like the rest of it should work for you. This is an EFI engine. You can probably hit the number with carbs but EFI has a lot of advantages.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/dyno-tested-make-700-hp-trick-flows-new-fe-heads/
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Dual quad and single quad "as cast" 482 combinations have gone over 600 several times in streetable trim. A recent higher compression Shelby block version got up over 640 as cast. The CNC variation has a 70+ cfm potential gain and will support 700HP with the right cam and induction package. Hitting 700 with a 6000 RPM pump gas package will take some effort - but its not out of the question. My 700ish HP 433 EMC engine is cool proof on concept - but not a valid comparison because of the extensive modifications...
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Thanks guys, and Andy I did see that Hot Rod write up on the 700 hp motor using the new Trick Flow heads. For now I'm trying to shy away from parts that are brand new to the market and stick with what is tried and tested over the years. It's definitely piqued my interest, though.
Barry, I actually emailed you a couple days ago on this topic but I know you're a busy guy and I don't want to take up your time with a million questions. That said, given my criteria of a streetable motor on pump gas, I would be very interested to hear your recommendations for a cam and induction package to go with your CNC heads which I will be ordering soon.
Cheers,
Chris
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Is there a reason you want to keep the bore limited to 4.25"? If you run that block out to 4.35" you're still giving yourself room to refresh it later. That'd help you sneak up on your 700HP goal.
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Friend just built 462, TF heads, roller cam, pump gas motor and made 600 hp. Going in street '69 Mustang.
My 462 made 625 with 12.5:1, flat tappet, 20 yr old Eboks with hand porting, tunnelwedge.
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Is there a reason you want to keep the bore limited to 4.25"? If you run that block out to 4.35" you're still giving yourself room to refresh it later. That'd help you sneak up on your 700HP goal.
I have been considering either boring it out more or going with a 4.375 stroke (or both), but I'm trying to fight the urge to do anything crazy just to hit a magic number. Can anyone tell me if there are any issues with maxing out the stroke to 4.375, whether it be added stress somewhere, block clearancing, oil burning, etc?
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Meh, from what little reading I've done on the 4.375 stroke I think I've already talked myself out of that.
I am considering the idea of 506ci vs 482 if I punched it out to 4.350, I just don't know if I want to use up that much of the block before even firing it up. Realistically that would probably only net me 20hp or so, right?
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Note the original post gave a range starting at 650 HP .
Sounds doable, maybe an electric waterpump? Electric fan(s)?
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I'd make it a 520. I start them at 4.345 bore and that leaves .030 to hone many times before you even get to 4.375. 10.5:1, Street Pro Ports, BP baby roller.....700 no problem.
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Note the original post gave a range starting at 650 HP .
Sounds doable, maybe an electric waterpump? Electric fan(s)?
Correct, there is nothing wrong with 650. Just trying to figure out what I'd need to do to hit 700. I do plan to use an electric water pump.
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I'd make it a 520. I start them at 4.345 bore and that leaves .030 to hone many times before you even get to 4.375. 10.5:1, Street Pro Ports, BP baby roller.....700 no problem.
That's assuming a 4.375 stroke, correct? You do that on street motors with no issues?
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No issues.......if you are working around limited compression for pump gas, the inches are your friend. We just bored two BBM blocks for 520's last week. It's a nice combo 4.345 bore X 4.375 stroke. It will tolerate more duration on the cam, which you will need to make your goal. Whatever heads you use need to be really efficient. You want a big street engine to be responsive, right under your foot. Smallish, high flow, high velocity ports........
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Thanks, Blair. I don't want to buy the wrong parts so I'm trying to translate the recommendations for "the right combo" and "efficient combo" into an actual parts list.
I'm leaning toward starting with Barry's CNC heads and a BBM Tunnel Wedge intake, then I'll be looking to someone much more knowledgeable than myself on hydraulic cam options.
Will this intake need to be worked over to match up to Barry's heads? If so, who do you guys trust to do that work?
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I do lots of manifolds, but I'm pretty backed up right now. Mr. Joe Craine comes to mind. He knows what to do.
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I'd make it a 520. I start them at 4.345 bore and that leaves .030 to hone many times before you even get to 4.375. 10.5:1, Street Pro Ports, BP baby roller.....700 no problem.
I've seen you classify that baby roller as having a really rough idle, which I think is a little less streetable than I'm looking for. Would love to hear what it sounds like though...back to Google / YouTube I go!
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Idle quality can be helped by wider lobe separation, and EFI smooths the idle also. You won't see 700 hp without a fairly aggressive camshaft. Rougher idle kinda goes with that territory. A 390 with a baby roller on a 108 would sound like John Force's funny car. A 520 with a baby roller on a 112......a much different idle quality. It just depends what a person wants. Wider lobe separation will typically take torque away.......big stroke street engines tolerate wider lobes better, making smoother idle doable without killing the torque. Small engines need help, so tighter lobes build torque. Build a combo with a design to fit your goals......
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Mr. Joe Craine is retired, OFFICIALLY. I am finishing up the heads and intakes I have accepted from past commitments. I am sorry, but I have to find a stopping place. I take my work very seriously, and the stress of always making the next intake or set of heads better than the last is taking its toll. There comes a point where the increases in flow stop and you start making mistakes, and then it becomes work instead of fun. I have reached that point where it is more work than it is fun. Hopefully I will still be able to get to EMC and a few special events, and get my '55 T-bird fitted with the 375 Y Block and 5 speed, and the Shelby with a new 482 all aluminum FE. That is sounding like fun! Joe-JDC
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Understood Joe, and I'm still in the beginning stages of gathering parts so I can afford to wait for Blair on the intake port work.
Blair, would you physically need the heads in your possession to do the intake work? And I can definitely handle (and desire) something sounding very lopey at idle...as long as it's not a pain in the ass on the street.
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You will be able to hit 700 hp, but it will take some good heads, as well as some camshaft and rpms.
Cubic inches are your friend. If this is a street build, the bigger the better when aiming for a high horsepower number. A larger engine will require less camshaft, less rpm, and less compression, in comparison to a small engine.
Something around the 496-520 cube range would serve you well. The 4.375" stroke crankshaft works just fine, street or race. I do quite a few builds with them and it's a very easy way to add displacement with no other detriments.
A solid camshaft will be necessary and I also do a lot of "street roller" camshafts that are easy on valve springs and lifters, so there are ways to deal with solid rollers on the street that will live a long while. The lobe design is critical as too aggressive of a lobe will be hard on parts.
If you're willing to "settle" for about 625-650 hp, then it can be done with the above combination and a hydraulic roller.
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Another note, an aggressive engine like that will be tough for a C6 to handle and keep the streetable nature, just my opinion. The cams they are taking about will probably require a pretty high stall converter, which in turn takes away from being street friendly.
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Just add a nox bottle.
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Just add a nox bottle.
This is going to stay an N/A build.
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A solid camshaft will be necessary and I also do a lot of "street roller" camshafts that are easy on valve springs and lifters, so there are ways to deal with solid rollers on the street that will live a long while. The lobe design is critical as too aggressive of a lobe will be hard on parts.
If you're willing to "settle" for about 625-650 hp, then it can be done with the above combination and a hydraulic roller.
If hitting 700hp means a solid cam, I may settle for less. I need to think about this.
And to BH107's point, how high of a stall do those street roller cams require that you mention?
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It will need a solid cam.
Also, if you're worried about torque converter stall rpms, then this probably isn't the route you wanna take.
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Mr. Joe Craine is retired, OFFICIALLY. I am finishing up the heads and intakes I have accepted from past commitments. I am sorry, but I have to find a stopping place. I take my work very seriously, and the stress of always making the next intake or set of heads better than the last is taking its toll. There comes a point where the increases in flow stop and you start making mistakes, and then it becomes work instead of fun. I have reached that point where it is more work than it is fun. Hopefully I will still be able to get to EMC and a few special events, and get my '55 T-bird fitted with the 375 Y Block and 5 speed, and the Shelby with a new 482 all aluminum FE. That is sounding like fun! Joe-JDC
Sorry to hear it, Joe. Well, not really sorry as you should do what makes you happy. I feel privileged to have two intake manifolds ported by you. I will make that ported Tunnel Wedge an engine worthy of it at some point. I have a plan for it. Thanks for you all you've done.
paulie
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Mr. Joe Craine is retired, OFFICIALLY. I am finishing up the heads and intakes I have accepted from past commitments. I am sorry, but I have to find a stopping place. I take my work very seriously, and the stress of always making the next intake or set of heads better than the last is taking its toll. There comes a point where the increases in flow stop and you start making mistakes, and then it becomes work instead of fun. I have reached that point where it is more work than it is fun. Hopefully I will still be able to get to EMC and a few special events, and get my '55 T-bird fitted with the 375 Y Block and 5 speed, and the Shelby with a new 482 all aluminum FE. That is sounding like fun! Joe-JDC
Well earned sir. When the work takes the stripe before the fun part, it's time to park it in the pit, crack open the adult beverages and go to bench racing. We would appreciate any continued pontification you choose to make on these interwebs, for the benefit of us unwashed and bottle honed masses.
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Discussion thread about using a girdle with cross-bolted block includes a couple of statements to the effect that stock blocks are only reccommended up to 600 HP. What is the recommended limit on the BBM blocks?
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It will need a solid cam.
Also, if you're worried about torque converter stall rpms, then this probably isn't the route you wanna take.
Noted on the cam, thanks.
I need to go drive a car that has a high stall. I just don't really know how much it will bother me.
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Discussion thread about using a girdle with cross-bolted block includes a couple of statements to the effect that stock blocks are only reccommended up to 600 HP. What is the recommended limit on the BBM blocks?
I haven't seen a specific number advertised, but I know it is well north of what I'm planning.
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Trick question.... have you driven a carb'd big block with 500hp on the street? 600hp? 700hp?
For the way I use and define a NA street car, I find anything over 1.2hp per cubic inch gets tiresome and really takes some of the fun out of driving. (I mean REAL street driving)
For what it seems that you want, I'd build the largest engine tamer than I would a smaller engine that is high strung.
A 650hp 520ci engine would be pretty laid back compared to the 650hp 482.
Good luck
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Trick question.... have you driven a carb'd big block with 500hp on the street? 600hp? 700hp?
For the way I use and define a NA street car, I find anything over 1.2hp per cubic inch gets tiresome and really takes some of the fun out of driving. (I mean REAL street driving)
For what it seems that you want, I'd build the largest engine tamer than I would a smaller engine that is high strung.
A 650hp 520ci engine would be pretty laid back compared to the 650hp 482.
Good luck
No, I've never even driven a big block car. I'm coming from the world of SBF strokers (331s and 347s) that were in the 350hp range. This is quite a step up for me.
It's funny, I thought I knew exactly what I wanted until I came here. But that's what makes this place so great, I'm learning a lot from you guys. Appreciate all the input.
There is probably nothing wrong with slapping a set of as-cast BT / BBM / FElony heads onto a 520, an as-cast tunnel wedge, and then a roller cam and making 600-620hp. I kind of had my heart set on a number, but none of that matters if it's no fun to drive on the street. I have some pondering to do while I wait for BBM to ship my block.
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If you live near Georgia/Florida, stop by.... we'll go for a ride :P even with my 525? hp 447ci engine traction makes it to where I don't think any more power would be terribly useful without prepped pavement and competition tires.
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X2 on what Drew wrote. I have a 483 making the 1.2 per number. Hydro roller installed on a 108. Sounds great but is snotty down low. Taking the car out on a cruise night, ( 67 Fairlane with a close ratio TL and 4:11s is fun to pound on but can be tiring by the end of the night. Depends on your comfort level and as mentioned by others your intended use. JMHO. JB
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X2 on what Drew wrote. I have a 483 making the 1.2 per number. Hydro roller installed on a 108. Sounds great but is snotty down low. Taking the car out on a cruise night, ( 67 Fairlane with a close ratio TL and 4:11s is fun to pound on but can be tiring by the end of the night. Depends on your comfort level and as mentioned by others your intended use. JMHO. JB
This - depends on your tolerance level. I've driven 4.11 500 HP drag radial rupp-rupp 50 miles one way to car shows. And the occasional funeral procession. The car with a license plate has 4.56 and a spool, It's 20 miles to the next town for any cruise night. Not a problem, watch the trans temp with the 4200 stall converter and stay off the freeway. I'd rather take a break and let the trans cool than dumb the car down. Texas antique plates technically don't allow for "daily driving" anyway. I have my comfy Super Crew (used to runner up in Street Eliminator last weekend LOL) and the Fusion for general going around.
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A solid cam, dual carb, 700 hp big block will get old on the street fairly quickly unless you have a high tolerance for noise, vibration and maintenance. However, you can tame the beast down fairly easily by going with a smaller cam and using EFI. A hyd roller cam will give up some power but cuts down on the noise and maintenance. EFI solves a ton of annoying issues with cold start, hot start, low speed response, etc.
The 700 hp 482 that we did for Car Craft is going in a '63 1/2 Galaxie and is going to be a "run around town car". I wouldn't be surprised if the cam gets downgraded a notch or two after the owner drives it for awhile. The great thing about EFI is that you can dial the tune in. Getting 2000 cfm of carb to play nice at part throttle cruise can be a real chore........
If you don't know exactly what your tolerance level is then I'd suggest building a big engine with safe compression ratio and good heads. That will give you a nice solid foundation to work with. Then you can experiment with different cams until you find a combo that is fun to drive. Changing cams on a FE is a pain, but that is basically what you are signing up for when you take on a project like this.
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Changing cams on a FE is a pain...
Why?
It's the exact process as any other engine. Balancer comes off, water pump comes off, timing cover comes off. Rockers come off, pushrods come out, intake comes off. Lifters come out, cam comes out.
If you're slick, you can even do it with some coat hangers or magnets, hold the lifters up off the lobes, and leave the intake on.
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Why?
It's the exact process as any other engine. Balancer comes off, water pump comes off, timing cover comes off. Rockers come off, pushrods come out, intake comes off. Lifters come out, cam comes out.
I would go so far as to say a cam swap is easier on an FE than lets say a Windsor or 460 engine because the timing cover isn't part of the water pump mounting.
Falcon67, I agree with your "tolerance level" comment, but for me at least I don't consider a street car something where I say "Ohh I drove it 20 miles once." I mean more like when my son says "Hey lets go to boyscouts" and we jump in my car and get stuck idling for ten minutes at a railroad crossing, and ride through town at 25mph hitting stop lights, etc. If I don't hate myself after the ride, it passes the test.... I don't like having to stare at water and transmission temperature gauges while wondering if I'll make it out of town before something overheats..... it's a pain. In this for instance, 1 point of compression, and a little less cam and convertor can make a massive difference in driveability, it's worth giving up 50hp on the top end that I'll never see. A track only vehicle? different story obviously. It all boils down to what the man really wants out of his car.
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If you don't know exactly what your tolerance level is then I'd suggest building a big engine with safe compression ratio and good heads. That will give you a nice solid foundation to work with. Then you can experiment with different cams until you find a combo that is fun to drive.
This seems to be the direction I'm headed. 520ci, probably some as-cast heads/intake and a roller cam. I might see something north of 600hp but what's more important to me right now is that it's a fun weekend cruiser.
It's funny how a "mild" 482 / 506 / 520 / whatever still works out to $18-20k just in parts. And that's before the rollerized C6 that I'll attempt to use!
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It's funny how a "mild" 482 / 506 / 520 / whatever still works out to $18-20k just in parts. And that's before the rollerized C6 that I'll attempt to use!
All the parts and/or machining processes are pretty much the same, so the cost doesn't change much unless you get into porting and specialized parts like tool steel or titanium pieces, specialized valvetrains, coatings etc. You CAN build a 600+ horse engine for $5000...they call them grenades ;)
The performance car hobby isn't for the faint of heart, that's for sure.
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If you don't know exactly what your tolerance level is then I'd suggest building a big engine with safe compression ratio and good heads. That will give you a nice solid foundation to work with. Then you can experiment with different cams until you find a combo that is fun to drive.
This seems to be the direction I'm headed. 520ci, probably some as-cast heads/intake and a roller cam. I might see something north of 600hp but what's more important to me right now is that it's a fun weekend cruiser.
It's funny how a "mild" 482 / 506 / 520 / whatever still works out to $18-20k just in parts. And that's before the rollerized C6 that I'll attempt to use!
Yeah I agree, I think the parts total was around $20K for the Car Craft 482. I don't think you need to settle for as cast heads though since the Trick Flow heads just flipped the script. Now you can buy CNC ported heads for $2000 and they work really well right out of the box. The BBM intake was very nice out of the box although it did require a little bit of machine work for pushrod clearance. If you have the money I'd duplicate that build with the exception of dropping the compression a point and maybe going with a little less cam. Although if you go with more inches then the cam we used will mellow out a bit more. If you have room in the budget I'd highly recommend EFI. If you don't need the look of the dual carbs then you can save money by running a single throttle body setup.
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I must say that I get amused by posts shopping for flow numbers or horsepower. I am NOT against them...they just make me smile.
Rarely does someone post "what do I gott'a do to run 12's or 11's or whatever in my Fairlane". I get the feeling this is what's beeing asked, but the poster doesn't really know it.
If you have been mess'n 'round with 350 HP small blocks, which by the way is plenty fun, an 11 second FE powered car will be a riot for you. Not many driven cars can really run that number.
Recipe for an 11 second streeter? A stock stroke 427 will do it, but a 454 incher does it better. A .600 lift solid flat tappet cam, NICELY professional ported heads (I use Edelbrocks), most any performance intake and a 800cfm or larger Holley, 10 inch converter, 4.56's and slicks. Then figure out how to make these parts work.
It's not that hard.
Seven hundred or even 6 hunnert (or even 500) is a serious piece. Might be easier for you if you sneak up on those numbers rather than go "all in" on your first try.
Most importantly, have fun!
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If your goal is truly a HP number, then focus the engine build on that. There are many good recipes for that kind of power...any of which will require a little more than basic engine building knowledge and experience. If you;re looking for an ET goal at the race track, go to Wallace Racing Calculators and do some research. Find out what kind of power you will need to run your number. You'll need to know the weight of your car pretty accurately. You can plug in just about any other information like gear, tire, rpm, etc...and get a power number. Remember...that will be an observed number at the race track, not a dyno corrected number. This doesn't have to be a mystery that only select people can answer. The information is all out there, it's just a matter of putting it together to reach your goal.
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And that's before the rollerized C6 that I'll attempt to use!
Want to build your own roller c6 on the cheap?
https://www.facebook.com/pg/AirFuelSParkTech/photos/?tab=album&album_id=174252049980201
I built that one I think in 2014, still running great. Best transmission I've ever built.
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If you live near Georgia/Florida, stop by.... we'll go for a ride :P even with my 525? hp 447ci engine traction makes it to where I don't think any more power would be terribly useful without prepped pavement and competition tires.
Really appreciate the offer, but I'm in Seattle. Womp womp.
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I must say that I get amused by posts shopping for flow numbers or horsepower. I am NOT against them...they just make me smile.
Rarely does someone post "what do I gott'a do to run 12's or 11's or whatever in my Fairlane". I get the feeling this is what's beeing asked, but the poster doesn't really know it.
If you have been mess'n 'round with 350 HP small blocks, which by the way is plenty fun, an 11 second FE powered car will be a riot for you. Not many driven cars can really run that number.
Recipe for an 11 second streeter? A stock stroke 427 will do it, but a 454 incher does it better. A .600 lift solid flat tappet cam, NICELY professional ported heads (I use Edelbrocks), most any performance intake and a 800cfm or larger Holley, 10 inch converter, 4.56's and slicks. Then figure out how to make these parts work.
It's not that hard.
Seven hundred or even 6 hunnert (or even 500) is a serious piece. Might be easier for you if you sneak up on those numbers rather than go "all in" on your first try.
Most importantly, have fun!
Not at all. Like I stated in my original post, this is going to be a cruiser only. It's an almost completely original 63 Galaxie boxtop that has been very well cared for. It absolutely is not a race car and likely will never see a dragstrip. I have other toys for that. The initial search for 700HP was for bragging rights alone.
The advice you give about starting small, like 500hp, is good. I just know that I will want more very soon after so I'm trying to only build once. If it gives you any insight, my very first street bike back in 2005 was a Yamaha R1. I knew I wouldn't be happy with a Suzuki 650 in 2 months time so I went big in the beginning and never regretted it.
All that said, I very much appreciate all the input.
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If you live near Georgia/Florida, stop by.... we'll go for a ride :P even with my 525? hp 447ci engine traction makes it to where I don't think any more power would be terribly useful without prepped pavement and competition tires.
Really appreciate the offer, but I'm in Seattle. Womp womp.
Seattle isn't too far away, I'm in the Portland area. The 700 hp Car Craft engine will be in a '63 1/2 Galaxie this summer if you want to come down and check it out. The car is getting a new fuel system at the moment and some other upgrades. Should be running by the end of summer if everything goes smooth. Sounds like it will be pretty close to what you're building. I think the owner is going with a 3.50 rear gear and he had the C6 beefed up a bit.
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If you live near Georgia/Florida, stop by.... we'll go for a ride :P even with my 525? hp 447ci engine traction makes it to where I don't think any more power would be terribly useful without prepped pavement and competition tires.
Really appreciate the offer, but I'm in Seattle. Womp womp.
Seattle isn't too far away, I'm in the Portland area. The 700 hp Car Craft engine will be in a '63 1/2 Galaxie this summer if you want to come down and check it out. The car is getting a new fuel system at the moment and some other upgrades. Should be running by the end of summer if everything goes smooth. Sounds like it will be pretty close to what you're building. I think the owner is going with a 3.50 rear gear and he had the C6 beefed up a bit.
Oh wow, that is something I would absolutely drive down to Portland d to check out! I'll definitely be in touch with my contact info if you're serious.
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Just last weekend at Columbus swap meet..........I saw the deal of a lifetime. 63 galaxie, 496 all alum FE, 2x4, 4 spd, very nice, clean car, gold exterior, all chrome very nice. $40K. You can't hardly build the motor for that if you start with nothing.