FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: 65er on July 24, 2012, 09:36:10 PM
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For all of you guys with street driven 500+ hp cars, I want to know how much of that horsepower you actually get to enjoy on a more or less daily basis. I'm still kind of trying to sort this out in my head but it's difficult since I don't have any experience to draw from in this area. On one hand I feel like my car SHOULD have 500 hp because it has 500 written in chrome letter right on the fenders! But on the other hand I already run into traction issues. It's an open 3.0:1 gear 255/60-15 TA Radials, which I know aren't the stickiest things but they get me to work and back every day in style (IMO at least, lol). Werbyford's gonkulator estimate is 375 hp and 425 tq.
Now the plan is to install a TKO 600 in place of the dying cruiseomatic, and 4.30 gears with a true-track or some form of limited slip diff. I also have 28 spline axles so I'm thinking I'd probably need to upgrade those if I thought I might put slicks on some day.
Here are my major concerns about spending the cash to make the 500 hp daydream come true:
1) the car still won't run 12's unless I buy a second set of wheels and tires and change them out at the track
2) I'll put slicks on and still won't run 12's because the suspension doesn't want to go there
3) the car WILL run 12's but wants to do a donut every time I try to make turn from a stop sign.
4) maybe after carrying extra tires around, changing them in the dirt and fooling with tech inspections and safety equipment I won't enjoy driving on the dragstrip! (not expecting this, but possible)
I'm kind of afraid of taking more fun OUT of the car by overdoing a good thing. If I go with 400 hp then I won't worry about the 31 spline axles, or slicks, or going to the track, and it's only a small step up from what I have now. But with the gear and transmission changes it's going to be an entirely different car than it is now. So how many horsepower can a big ole Galaxie actually put to good use on a daily basis?
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My advice would be if its a daily, stick to around 400ish. If its a toy tip as much as you want in. Big grins both ways.
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I think you might be able to use up to 600 HP with the right suspension and street tires, but it won't be as friendly in traffic as it is now. You will also lose some low RPM grunt once you go by 500 HP. But as long as you go with big cubes to make your 500 HP engine, I think you would be perfectly satisfied with the street performance across the RPM band.
For my part I've gone way beyond that horsepower level because I'm not all that interested in racing around on the street. Some of my friends say I drive like a grandma ;D However, I do enjoy going to the track, and with a 6000 stall converter and slicks, I can use all the power available in the upper RPM ranges.
It all depends on the end purpose of the car...
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If I decide to shoot for the 400 range it'll be a 390 and I'll need to buy a cam but otherwise I can pretty much build that from parts I have laying around at home already. Beyond that it would be the 445 kit, professional head and intake porting job and hydraulic roller cam. The funny thing is, if I go for more HP and lose some low end grunt maybe the tires stand a bit better chance of hanging on. Wonder if I can even purposely "over do it" to kill some bottom as a favor to my tires. Probably a piss poor plan but I know I'm not going to get excited about changing tires every time I want to enjoy my car. I might decide it's time to blow out the carbon on the way to work sometimes...
Also Jay, you got me curious about the suspension. I've got the stock 3 link setup with a 7/8 sway bar and air shocks in there. The system has both shocks plumbed to a single valve but I figured I can split them and run a few more PSI on the right side. Beyond that I don't know what to do to improve traction for the strip. Is there stuff that can be done to my setup without a bunch of heavy duty mods?
And when my grandma got behind the wheel she meant business! So when you say you drive like a grandma I'll assume you mean absolutely nobody is going to pass you and your passengers won't open their eyes ;)
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I run a pretty hot 489 and can obliterate the tires at will. However, I can also enjoy the car in every gear without doing so too. It's not uncontrollable or driving on ice, your foot determines the madness.
If I were you, I'd reduce variables with changes as well as phase changes in with the budget.
- Get the TKO-600 in and drive it. Be sure to measure the current crank centerline angle (use any measurement, carb pad, fan blades, whatever) and when you get the new tranny in, make sure its the same. Then make sure it drives nice
- Do the gears, and play some more, see the beauty of your changes and pay close attention to the RPM range you enjoy the car in the most
- Determine how much power you want after that. I see a nice 397 matched to the RPM range you want as being a ton of fun, add more head, add more stroke, and cam accordingly to meet that RPM range if you want more. Building a daily driver is different than building a strip terror. You need to figure out a wider RPM range and varying conditions.
Honestly, a good breathing 397 would be a ton of fun for an interim motor after the tranny and gears are done
However, I'd focus on a little less cam but more head/intake/exhaust flow to get RPM, regardless of displacement, in the end as a daily driver you'll be a little more happy at a stoplight with the a/c on.
I do expect you'll get the bug and eventually build a stroker, but it doesn't have to be right away.
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So you're saying sneak up on it. Seems like probably a solid plan since that's pretty much what I need to do anyway. For setting the drive angles I planned on measuring from the floor to the center of the output shaft before I remove the original tranny and then working with the TKO until I get the same height. That should get me in the right spot, right?
Then I'll be driving it a while and will come back to take care of the rear end and I'll be driving it a while again before doing anything to the motor. So I'm probably just getting way ahead of myself. I do know the transmission at least and I got the clutch pedal, z-bar and some of the linkage already so maybe it won't be long before I can do something and see how it looks from there instead of torturing myself thinking about it.
Transmission first then worry about the next step...
Ehhh, I don't know if I like that... too reasonable ;-)
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Output shaft centerline to floor is perfect if you have the same length transmission/output shaft
If its not the same, the angle wont be the same. 10 dollar angle finders at Sears are pretty handy and all you need is a flat surface before and after.
As far as sneaking up on it, honestly I didnt do it that way, but I knew I wanted a 489FE and exactly what RPM range I wanted it to run in. So I built the stroker/tranny combo, but then still adjusted later with more gear.
You have been on the fence with engine size and level of performance, so by doing the gear and tranny, you'll get increased performance with each change, then have a solid rpm range to match the biggest engine you are willing to spend on
BTW that tranny is an easy swap, get all the parts and take a long weekend and get it in there!
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On the fence!
Now there's a polite way to say it, lol. Spazzin' out is probably more accurate. Hopefully won't be much longer and I'll have the transmission done and maybe I'll be able to chill out a bit. I appreciate you guys input and am hoping to hear about any traction tips for the three link rear.
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Most of my cars run obsolete leaf springs in the rear ;D, so I've never worked with a factory suspension setup like your Galaxie has. But a good starting point would be to replace the rubber bushings with new ones, or maybe polymer ones, and adjust the shocks differently side to side. Another alternative might be to put an airbag in the right side spring, and use regular adjustable shocks rather than the air shocks. For a 12 second car, that ought to be plenty of suspension to get it to hook.
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get the 445 Wade , just because you got 500HP doesn't mean you have to use it everytime you drive it , but it will be nice having it when you need it .... if you settle for 400hp then you'll be "just hanging" with some lady in a new 6.0 Escalade instead of smoking her off the road ... DON'T SISSY OUT , your not going to be smoking the tire everytime you nail it with 500HP , might as well make the "XL500" stand for something (like horse power for your chevy buddies)
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Will append my first advice. I was thinking 390.
If its a daily (a true daily) don't go too far over the 1hp per cube mark. If its a toy then go for it!
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There is no replacement for displacement!
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Wade , here's a link to some 1965 and up galaxy suspension compononents
http://www.spohn.net/shop/1965-1974-Ford-Galaxie/Suspension/
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Hmmm. Well it's a very personal choice as to how far you want to push it. My opinion is to go for as much hp as you can. Figuring out how to hook it up later is a fun problem to have.
1) the car still won't run 12's unless I buy a second set of wheels and tires and change them out at the track
I've run as fast as 11.70 at 123 in the 1/4 on real street radials (255/60R15 Firesone Firehawks) on street surfaces. That's according to a g-meter which should be conservative due to no roll out, but who knows. That's with a horrible 1.99 60 ft time. The motor is only around 540 hp. Ross has 600 hp ;) and Jay's stuff is in another world. :o Still even with my little 428 , it takes a perfect launch on real street tires, starting at maybe 2500 rpm, rolling into the throttle, hitting full throttle near the top of 1st gear. I've tried drag radials without too much success. Now I have some Mickey Thompson ET Street bias ply's and they hook very well. I'm just waiting for the temperature to cool down and I'll try some more passes. I think I'll run 11.30's to 11.40's with the ET Streets, but we'll have to see for sure.
2) I'll put slicks on and still won't run 12's because the suspension doesn't want to go there
With slicks you'll run 12's just fine, despite a non-scienced out suspension, if you have the power to weight.
3) the car WILL run 12's but wants to do a donut every time I try to make turn from a stop sign.
You'll be able to control what it does. It may take a little practice, but you'll be able to make it do what you want.
4) maybe after carrying extra tires around, changing them in the dirt and fooling with tech inspections and safety equipment I won't enjoy driving on the dragstrip! (not expecting this, but possible)
I think you'll still enjoy it. Messing with your car is half the fun, IMO
Jay mentioned 600 hp as a usable level and I think that's a good general statement. Of course it varies with the car, suspension, tires, etc., but 600 hp is a good answer IMO. Like I said it's a personal decision, but my advice is to go for as much as you can. Most hotrodders want more hp as soon as they get used to what they have. :) Displacement can be your enemy depending on your combination. In general, the better your traction and the heavier your car the more displacement you can use. With a big Galaxie, more is usually better. If you're not looking for ultimate ET, then traction problems are not really problems. They're a lot of fun.
A big fat JMO,
paulie
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Lots of good discussion on the practical side of street horsepower here. Thanks a bunch, I really appreciate the guidance from you guys with experience.
Points that really hit home for me are:
1) Sneak up on it, which I'll have to do anyway since I don't have the budget to tackle everything at once.
2) No replacement for displacement, which is about as cliche as it gets but would never have become a cliche if it didn't make so much sense. The bigger motor will be milder for any given horsepower number so presumably better suited for daily street use.
3) Probably hits closest to home for me is Most hotrodders want more hp as soon as they get used to what they have.
I've had I think 4 different motor combinations in my car in about an 18 month period for various reasons but if I had ever truly been satisfied I probably would have left it alone at some point. And if I'm asking about this stuff now I must not be ready to leave it alone yet. Much as I like messing with the motor I don't really want to keep swapping it out just for the sake of having something to do.
Looks like I'd better plan on that 31 spline rear...
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If you ever plan on running slicks I would suggest looking at the welds on the rear axle and frame where the upper control arm mounts. More weld area is needed on the axle and possibly some reinforcement and more welding at the frame point. This is a known point of failure when going for big power and traction. ww
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Using lots of cubic inches cures a lot of the drawbacks that are common on small, high horsepower motors. A big crank smooths out the lumpy idle, builds more manifold vacuum, makes more low end and mid range grunt; all stuff you want in a street/strip motor. Stroker cranks are cheap nowdays...
You don't need slicks to hook, my GTX runs 10.80 on the G70 14 bias plys right out of the Coker catalog. Just work on weight transfer and control: loosen up the suspension, 90/10's on the front, adjustibles on the rear, lighten the front end as much as possible, put the battery in the trunk. Preload weight on the right rear with an air bag or a taller spring, then level the car out with a taller spring in the left front. Eliminate wheel hop by putting steel or aluminum bushings in the front holes of the rear control arms and new rubber or poly in the back, stiffen the control arms by boxing them. THere is a lot you can do that is cheap and easy to help traction without removing your street tires.
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d137/HemiJoel/JOEL_12-29-09JPG1200.jpg)
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That's the coolest thing I've seen in quite awhile. I bet it blows some minds. Looking at the air under the tire and then looking at the size and type of rear tires makes me do a double take. :o I'm starting to do some of the things you mentioned to get a "hook", but I obviously have a ways to go.
What pressure do those bias-ply G70's hook up best at? Cool car!
paulie
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what a beauty Joel !! ..... 8)
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thank you Joel.you have just given out a wealth of information. saved a lot of question.thank you again.
Kevin.
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Nice Joel, that GTX is most impressive, what a beauty! I wont be doing stuff like the 90/10 shocks or battery in the trunk since I only have the one car and it needs to retain a decent level of comfort and safety too. I was a Mopar fan before I was a Ford fan by the way. Just sayin...
Also thanks WW for bringing up the rearend/frame welds. If you hadn't mentioned it, those things would probably have occurred to me right after something expensive happened.
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Thanks! ;D
I usually run about 28 - 30 PSI, but some guys run a lot less or a lot more.
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I just had to bump this thread for that pic of Hemi Joels street-tire wheelie!
It's also kind of fun looking back to see where I was a year ago. I've got the TKO in and the rearend upgraded with the 31 spline true track and Daytona pinion support. I have all the stuff to put the battery in the trunk but just haven't done that job yet. Also have been working with Blair on a beefy stroker motor. So far I own a crank, rods and 3X2 intake manifold with some probably junk carbs so got quite a ways to go there. Will be a copy of one Blair built recently for John Norris that made 517 hp at 5000 rpm and 595 ft/lb at 3800. Will certainly have some suspension work ahead of me, haha.
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that'll be an awesome engine. Can't wait to see you get bored of it and start a thread called "700hp, is it enough on the street?"
:P
good luck
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The answer to that question is a resounding NO! ;D ;D ;D
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that'll be an awesome engine. Can't wait to see you get bored of it and start a thread called "700hp, is it enough on the street?"
:P
good luck
Hahah! No, I'm sure this one will do the job. Actually I've been enjoying my car quite a bit lately even with the 390. Best guess on my current combo says the new engine represents an increase of about 170 ft/lb and 140 horsepower. That's kind of a big deal! The stroker is also under cammed for good street manners. Just swapping in a bigger stick would be good for another 50-60 peak HP but I really don't think I'll ever open the engine up after Blair gets done with it.
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I just wanted to throw a couple of thoughts out there for you to ponder....
If you start going to poly or aluminum bushings, be prepared for the harsher ride. You will start to feel and hear every bump and divot in the roads. Some guys this doesn't bother, but to some people who like to drive their cars on a more regular basis and take some trips in it, it can get annoying or less "relaxing" and enjoyable.
Also consider fuel mileage. 500+hp is a blast, there is no doubt about it, but when you have to fill up the tank twice as often, you will probably not want to drive it as often. $40-$50 minimum out of your pocket on every drive you take adds up quick if you like to drive it a lot. If you won the lottery or make over $100k a year, this may not be an issue :)
Once you get to the 500hp and above range, pretty much every part of the drivetrain needs to be addressed. Driveshafts, U-joints, rear diffs, axles etc. Not addressing those things will cause issues eventually....usually when you least want it to happen.
I'm not trying to talk you out of it, just keep your mind in the real world and realize that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction (I've heard this said before....somewhere)
My solution is to have multiple vehicles. One for every purpose. I find this works rather well ;D
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I'm with you cjshaker. Never fear, you aren't talking me out of anything and I appreciate your input.
Check it out -
Being my only car, I put a lot of thought into the things I do to it. So I think about all kind of stuff and ask a lot of questions and solicit opinions quite often as well, and I appreciate all the info and insights you guys care to share. It's obviously not the most practical car around, but it does meet my needs for transportation, recreation and it fist my budget well since my only car payment is in the parts I buy. And the gas I suppose. I spend about $60 a week on gas I guess, not too bad for what I get out of it I think.
The driveline is done - new driveshaft, new 1330 U-joints, new 31 spline axles, new true track diff, new 3.89 gears, new Daytona pinion support and don't forget the new TKO 600 tranny ;)
Haven't done any suspension mods yet but I'm aware of the harsh bushing thing. One of the guys I work with drives a 2006 mustang running 12.60's and he's done all that and from time to time he mentions thinking about putting the rubber bushings back in to quiet his ride. Will be worse in mine as it's already loud inside. I really need to do a sound dampening program on mine at some point and then the suspension noises will be a little less of an issue. It's definitely something I'm aware of at the moment.
Fuel economy of course is always a concern of mine since this is my only car. If I didn't live fairly close to work it would be a really big deal. However I don't expect the new engine to be hugely thirsty compared to what I have now. Mostly due to poor tuning on my current setup probably, but it drives with no bogs, stalls, surges etc so I don't fool with it. Highway MPG from similar combos Blair has done have actually been significantly better than what I'm getting now although I would expect in town they may not be. Currently I'm averaging about 11 MPG per tank as long as I don't do anything particularly fun...
As for second car, not really a good option for me. For one, I don't want to have a really nice car to enjoy and then NOT enjoy it most of the time. And besides, I live in an apartment. I like apartment life. Never have to screw with the lawn or house maintenance stuff, if something breaks I just tell the folks at the office and it gets fixed fast and free etc. However I am at my car quota with two per address (My son has a little pickup truck) so an additional vehicle would have to be parked on the street. Of course that situation is subject to change as one of the other apartment bennies is being able to move pretty much whenever I want :o
From where I sit, it's all good and getting even better!
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Just so you know, Wade, it's me...Doug :)
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It's right there in your sig too and I missed it! What a dumbass! Funny thing is when I was addressing you as cjshaker I was thinking "I wish I knew who it is..." hahaha! :o
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Wade,
Try looking up Dynamat for sound deadening, it works well and is not too tough to install. You just need a little roller on a stick... My Fairlane floorboards are lined with it, including the doors. Makes 'em sound nice and tight when you close 'em!
Bruce
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It's right there in your sig too and I missed it! What a dumbass! Funny thing is when I was addressing you as cjshaker I was thinking "I wish I knew who it is..." hahaha! :o
Nope, I just added a signature on that last post and it showed up on all the others. They just do that to mess with your mind :o
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Just so you know, if Blair Patrick does an engine for you and you see this truck coming up your road...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Wademeister/Galaxie/WP_000802_zps47759c43.jpg)
it's time to get excited!
Here's what he brought to me today, I must say I'm pretty darn happy with this! Installing this weekend.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Wademeister/Galaxie/IMG_2198_zps065e0048.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Wademeister/Galaxie/DynoSheet_zps31b6707b.jpg)
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That is going to wake the ol' Gal right up! Looking forward to the before and after comparison, Wade...
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That should be a great match for the old Gal. Looking forward to hearing the updates!
Post us some specs when you have a chance, 5500-5700 rpm peak is a nice street combo
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Giddy Up Wade!
That is a long way from the old skinny rod 390 thing.
Make sure you get the axle nailed in there really good.
Have Fun. ;D
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Wow, great stuff ;D. This is a great thread too, if you go back to it's humble beginnings you can see the evolution of a hot rod FE. Thought processes turned into reality. Once you open the box you just can't go back 8).
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Oh yeah, specs..
I don't have every last detail since Blair and I basically worked out what I wanted from the car and I left him to handle it as he saw fit. I'm really glad I did it that way instead of trying to spec everything out myself. Obviously, he's got all the particulars covered.
Here's what I do know...
390 block, .030 over. Lifter bores have been bushed since in this build the oil hole in the roller lifters slightly cleared the top of the lifter bore. How the heck he noticed that?
4.375 forged crank. 2.200 (I think) rod journals
Crower I beam connecting rods
CP Pistons + top shelf modern ring package. (I think CP... whatever brand Blair usually uses)
Edelbrock Pro Port heads with Blairs CNC port work and valve job. Sorry, don't know the valve sizes.
Roller hydraulic cam and lifters... cam specs are "low lift daily driver" ;)
Heavy duty rocker shafts, stock non-adjustable rockers. I think this might be a bit of a Blair signature item. I'm very satisfied with this arrangement since there's nothing to go out of adjustment and I don't remember ever hearing of a stock rocker arm failure. I've never been a fan of aluminum rocker arms either.
Ford 3X2 intake manifold, well worked over
350 - 500 - 350 carb arrangement, brand new quickfuel carbs milled to fit the 3X2 air cleaner base.
Valve covers and air cleaner setup are from Tony Branda. I was worried they might look bad up close since they weren't all that expensive but they're nice. I'm glad I went that way. I was looking for more or less period correct 427 dress under the hood. It'll be a bit odd looking with the AC compressor mounted but I'm not giving up my AC for nothing or nobody!
Got just a couple pics of it going together but Blair has more that are still in his camera.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Wademeister/Galaxie/IMG_20140410_185923_402_zps9dcb3cbf.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/Wademeister/Galaxie/IMG_20140410_185716_083_zps76152967.jpg)
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Non-adjustable rockers! What a concept... 8)
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Wade, what are the carb series? I`m looking into alternative carbs for a factory 3x2. Pictures please!
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Hey, not Wade but I can answer. I used a 500 circle track carb in the center, and two 350 circle track carbs on the ends. It takes about four days for me to "convert" and tune them, and get the linkage right. I use most of an OEM style linkage, but I made a new primary linkage rod, and I also use some easy-to-get Holley linkage ends and clips to hold it all. Maybe Wade can shoot you a close-up of the linkage arrangement. No rocket science on that, but a fair amount of time. It takes some time to mill the air cleaner bases also, but we have "new" stuff this way. We also changed the boosters, and I do some stuff in the metering blocks to help the fuel curve and economy.
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Wow. What else can you say but remarkable. That is an excellent street package. Congratulations Wade and Blair. You really can't beat those Ford rockers for dependability.
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I can get some pics soon but at the moment I've got the engine parked in a corner where I can't get in to shoot that side very well.
Look for progress pics over the three day weekend ;)
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that'll be an awesome engine. Can't wait to see you get bored of it and start a thread called "700hp, is it enough on the street?"
:P
good luck
Ok, maybe 700 or 750! Just needs a new aluminum 427 block, pistons to fit and a bit more cam haha! Hmm. maybe a bit more carb too. Blair seems to think my carb/intake setup will hit a wall around 600. Maybe... just maybe we'll have to find out what is the absolute limit of the FE 6V setup ;)
...Most hotrodders want more hp as soon as they get used to what they have. :) Displacement can be your enemy depending on your combination. In general, the better your traction and the heavier your car the more displacement you can use. With a big Galaxie, more is usually better. If you're not looking for ultimate ET, then traction problems are not really problems. They're a lot of fun.
A big fat JMO,
paulie
You are a smart man Paulie...
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I discovered into my project that aftermarket axles are necessary to be NHRA legal, who knew whoops. Maybe I can talk the local speed shop into swapping the Detroit locker for a 30 or 31 spline. Point is I should have planned ahead but originally it was going to get a 351 instead of a 445. Either wat I need aftermarket axles to run it on the track.