FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Barry_R on March 08, 2018, 07:36:36 PM
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I was looking at the front brakes on the Torino, since I had swapped to rear discs. Figured I should at least inspect. These are perhaps three years old - all new reproduction/replacement stuff from the spindle on out. Limited street miles and maybe a couple dozen strip passes - no "hot laps" since I never go to the second round...
Take a look at the rotor - that crack at 11:00 o'clock starts in the center and goes all the way through and out to the edge - others are starting to show up as well. No more Chinese replacement brake parts are gonna be used anymore. Check your stuff - this could have been really bad at 130...
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e135/Barry_R/20180306_093214_zpsyikfym6x.jpg)
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Thanks Barry , where can we find good brake parts anymore ?
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Funny, but I had to replace the old OEM front rotors on my fairly high mileage Nissan Altima a few years ago and was surprised that the replacements were much more heavy duty and quite nice although they were Chinese parts! Maybe it's the luck of the draw or make/model type. Just sayin'....
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Have you adjusted your front to rear bias since the rear disc install?
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No more Chinese replacement brake parts are gonna be used anymore. Check your stuff - this could have been really bad at 130...
It would really help if you could at least tell us where you bought the rotors or brand or part number or something.
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The picture that Barry has posted shows the original style assembly where the hub is a separate piece from the rotor. Almost all of the new replacements are one piece (probably Chinese). NPD sells a new two piece hub/rotor but is around $250 and you have to buy the whole assembly. Centric might sell just the rotor for around $80, not sure about this, was just checking into it recently. But I'd bet that the Centric are Chinese also.
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Chockostang has Raybestos at 100 a pair, and "unknown" at 225 a pair. I just sent off an email asking for a comparison, so lets see what happens.
Anyone here have any problems from cutting originals?
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Most of the parts operations have stopped cutting rotors around here.
KS
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Amazingly, here in the Chicagoland area and collar counties with millions of cars (no exaggeration) no shops will cut drums or rotors anymore. Some claim labor costs can't compete with cheap imports, others say liability insurance issues. But one old and now retired machinist hit it on the head in my mind. The near total lack of do-it-yourselfers resulted in hardly any cylinder head work of yore let alone engine boring, honing, etc.
Now brake/oil change/muffler shops in some cases still do limited brake machining but even here it's more cost-effective to buy new parts. In addition, he said a lack of qualified machinists, older fellows like himself, further hurt the old-school auto parts shops that were steadily replaced by big chains. 'Course we all know the big chain parts stores don't and never did offer said work and even older, long-established NAPA outlets here (many that used to be independent mom & pop owned) sold off the machinery and no longer cut brakes. Sad but true!
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I'll back up Barry's "public service message". I do lots of brake jobs at work. I will hold on to the factory rotors as long as possible, even going as far as putting new pads on factory un-cut rotors, whether they have irregularities or not. The pads always wear into the rotors and don't cause me any issues. Reason being, ALL the aftermarket stuff I use (Napa, but pretty much standard for any auto parts supplier) will rust, crumble, heat score and generally fall apart after a couple years use. Granted, it's in Ohio where salt plays a role, but that is no excuse. Junk. Pure junk. And Barry's aren't even heat scored or rusted.
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We have one NAPA that still cuts rotors and a shop next door to my shop still cuts some. But the all push replacing them as cost cut measures. My 95 F 350 is on its second set of frts and I have replaced one rear drum. My Dodge diesel is on its second set of rotors and heading for its third due to warpage. The dodge has a real problem with death wobble when you hit the brakes at times , can`t figure it out and had it to the best truck alignment shop in the area. My 03 Bonneville Is getting new rotors again due to pad deterating, Fifth time.
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Those were purchased from NPD (I am positive that they just sell stuff from various suppliers and have no way to verify quality). They are/were the more expensive and supposedly better parts. At the time I was unwilling to make a conversion to aftermarket brakes at twice the cost - figured the weight savings was irrelevant on a 3700 pound car, and I was not going all that fast at the end of the 1/4. Old stock replacement parts I removed got tossed (unfortunately), but they lasted decades and thousands of passes without this happening.
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Barry, you might want to look into Baer Brakes as they have really good but but not cheap stuff.
I've had their front brakes for years (1993) now on my '70 Mach1 and they are great. 13.2" rotors, aluminum hub with a steel, not cast, rotor ring ala' what one oft sees on real racers. I swear that they hardly look used with 10,000 miles on them as the steel ring wears, well, better than iron! Bolted on my spindles in a snap w/o any spindle mods.
This kit has PBR 2-puck calipers, requires 16" or + wheels but they offer many more calipersizes and puck options as well. Some of their more std. kits I understand now have one piece rotors but they are still very high quality. Various rotor sizes are availble to fit smaller wheel combos.
http://baer.com/home.php
Those were purchased from NPD (I am positive that they just sell stuff from various suppliers and have no way to verify quality). They are/were the more expensive and supposedly better parts. At the time I was unwilling to make a conversion to aftermarket brakes at twice the cost - figured the weight savings was irrelevant on a 3700 pound car, and I was not going all that fast at the end of the 1/4. Old stock replacement parts I removed got tossed (unfortunately), but they lasted decades and thousands of passes without this happening.
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That is scary, good eye to notice it.
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The wear on that rotor almost looks like something else is awry. Wheel bearings, caliper chatter, something out of alignment... does not look like normal rotor wear, even for a cheap rotor. I'd keep digging.
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Wilwood has aluminum hub/disc brake setups. They have a lightweight drag rotor assembly just for these cars. Supposed to be made in the US. Seems to be fairly popular at dragstrips.
Here's a link to the Centric higher end rotor, supposed to be cryogenic treated. $71.79 plus shipping. There is a left and right because of the directional vanes.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4907190&cc=1132434&jsn=250
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The wear on that rotor almost looks like something else is awry. Wheel bearings, caliper chatter, something out of alignment... does not look like normal rotor wear, even for a cheap rotor. I'd keep digging.
My first thought also. Even my 4000# brick does not eat up brakes like that. I have stock '77 Tbird calipers/rotors with Hawk pads on it. I'm still going 120-122 mph so it is no slouch but I go years without issue. They never look like that. Granted I don't get crazy with brake application, just firm enough to slow down, but never try for the first or second turn off at any track. I don't use the engine for braking either!
I did put a generic GM rear brake kit on the back a few years ago. That did help with things over the stock drums. After a few seconds of braking, I can feel it really bite in and I usually have to ease off to coast to the end of most tracks.
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I have a friend that drives rally he bought some rotor that cracked like that
after one race. But they realy use the brakes, at night you see the rotors
glow. And yours dont look like they have been more than luke warm
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Wilwood has aluminum hub/disc brake setups. They have a lightweight drag rotor assembly just for these cars. Supposed to be made in the US. Seems to be fairly popular at dragstrips.
Here's a link to the Centric higher end rotor, supposed to be cryogenic treated. $71.79 plus shipping. There is a left and right because of the directional vanes.
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4907190&cc=1132434&jsn=250
I had 6 piston 13" Wilwoods on the front of my 07 Mustang and Centric rotors on the back. Centric makes a good product. One (road course) session the brakes got so hot they melted the plastic dust caps on the front hubs but never faded...
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That funky pattern on the rotor is just an artifact of the photograph and shop lighting - you cannot see anything like that looking at it in person. Rotor is reasonably smooth with no indication of high temperatures or glazing - nothing turning even a little bit blue, grease still OK on the rubber bits in the calipers, pads look perfectly normal.
This was run with the factory rear drums - as it has been since 1981 when I bought the car - and never really had a problem stopping - so its not any kind of bias change. Car has not been run with the rear discs at all yet.
If not for the cracks anybody would just put the wheel back on and continue racing. And yes - I also ran that stock stuff at much higher speeds for a few decades without incident when the car had a larger engine in it - and nitrous.
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For many years, I ran the factory front disc brakes on my Fairmont, with 67 T Bird 11" rear drum brakes. The stock rotors were 10", and back when the car only trapped 125-126 MPH, never really had any abnormal brake issues. Plus my home track has a long shutdown area. However, going 5 MPH faster made the brake life drop dramatically, and going to a couple of races a year at Bremerton Raceway, with a much shorter, plus downhill shut down, really killed the rotors. I have solid Centerline AutoDrag Wheels, so you can not see the rotors from outside, but several years ago, I was shocked at how bad the rotors looked. They were blue, with large cracks all around the rotor, and on both sides. Thay looked so bad, that they looked like if you dropped them on the floor, they would shatter into pieces. (I did try that, they did NOT break.) After putting on new rotors a few times, about 3 years ago, I upgraded to the 11" brake spindles and calipers from a 5.0 L 87-93 Mustang, along with 5 lug rotors. I can`t say the car stop a lot better, but at least the larger rotors look much better.
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My worst professor I had in college taught materials. He was very very smart, but very very condescending. The only thing I believe I learned from him directly relates to this. He was a motorcycle nut and quite a bit of his research was in motorsports materials.
One of his studies was on brake rotor heat treatment. He showed us what happens if you take a short cut (like the Chinese) in heat treating brake rotors. A lot of times people will think that they have a warped rotor, when truly the rotor hasn't "warped", but the material on the face of the rotor has moved around. Improper patience in heat treatment can also yield cracks exactly as that rotor shows. He mapped the processes through the phase diagrams and it made total sense at the time (No way I could make sense of it anymore though).
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We have one NAPA that still cuts rotors and a shop next door to my shop still cuts some. But the all push replacing them as cost cut measures. My 95 F 350 is on its second set of frts and I have replaced one rear drum. My Dodge diesel is on its second set of rotors and heading for its third due to warpage. The dodge has a real problem with death wobble when you hit the brakes at times , can`t figure it out and had it to the best truck alignment shop in the area. My 03 Bonneville Is getting new rotors again due to pad deterating, Fifth time.
There is a real fix for the wobble on the Dodge trucks I can find out what it is if you want me to I can't remember it now, but there is one and on the rotors i have found if you buy performance rotors and you ask for the ones made in Canada, if you are doing GM stuff always use performance rotors or they will warp right away . Leny Mason
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The fix on the dodge is a steering arm stabilizer http://www.dodgeramsteeringstabilizer.com/. I have one installed on my 98 Ram and it cleared up both the death wobble and the chopped pattern on the tires.
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I gotta add the dodge is a 3500 two wheel drive diesel that has the straight axle. It also has 2 shock steering dampers mounted on it(factory). I`m wondering if that kit will fit under there? Lenny see what the fix is you mentioned.
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Reading the description, the straight axle 3500 uses the 4wd version.