FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: FElony on March 04, 2018, 02:44:32 PM
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Yes, it's a Monkey Talk kinda topic!!
Let's say you can devise a pump that can push air into the water inlets at the front of the block at approximately the same pressure that the water pump produces. Remove "freeze" plugs, thermostat/housing, hoses, radiator, fan. Maybe put air exits at rear of manifold? Using ambient air instead of hot water, can the engine achieve homogeneous thermal dispersion (<--monkey) at some point in a range that allows for reliable operation?
The scenario is this: There is a local drag venue that runs 200 feet on dirt, and allows everything from your daily driver to thingies with zoomies and paddles in back. Two lane staging, long but moves quickly due to short duration runs. Stage, then full throttle for 4 seconds or so, then back to idle. Intent: reduction of weight from the nose of the vehicle to aid traction in dirt. Horsepower: approx 350-450.
Team Avian will argue for the possibility. Team Aquarian will say that nothing beats a gusher pusher.
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FElony, are you eating those brownies being sold by a guy at the park with dreadlocks again? ;D
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I have actualy seen something like that on a Model-T Engine. there you have water in
on the side of the block. They had put a funnel on the water inlet pipe and modified
the fan bracket so the fan was blowing in to the funnel If it worked i dont know
the engine wasn´t seized up atleast
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There has to be a way to evaluate that engineering-wise, but I don't know how to do it. I suppose it would boil down to (pun intended) how well the heat transfers to the air, as opposed to a liquid coolant...
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There has to be a way to evaluate that engineering-wise, but I don't know how to do it. I suppose it would boil down to (pun intended) how well the heat transfers to the air, as opposed to a liquid coolant...
Pulling the hood off any car improves engine temps, no?
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Why not just run water in the engine, no pump, belts, pulleys, etc?
As others did then and now, we ran our Boss 302 injected gas FED with just head/block water, no other circulation system nor radiator. Run time from warm-up, burnout, staging and a mid 10 second run must have been 2-3 minutes. Petcocks on both sides let the now pretty hot water out in seconds. A quick cool-down, more tap-temp water loaded in through screw-off tops to the Enderle injector intake top water fills at the front and we were ready for another run.
Keep in mind the entire water jacket system in almost any V-8 can't even be 5-6 quarts @7.7 lb.s gallon = 12 lb.s or so. Even an FE can't hold but say 6 quarts or about that 12lbs. max. We'd fire the engine dry for about 1 minute after a teardown but that was only to ascertain the copper head gaskets w/aluminum paint sealed up. Be sure if you go this route to add topside water exits lines (think: small diameter F.I. SS lines) at the engine's back to allow hot water to escape below the chassis.
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I don't have any real answers backed up by engineering studies or math or anything, but it's not unusual for a few drag race classes to run without a traditional cooling system at all. Especially examples like you mentioned that are short duration, and often if they are alcohol fueled. The race cars will be towed to the starting line though, so under your example it would have to be determined if that was allowed by the rules. But just running without a cooling system isn't treading any new ground, I'd guess any experienced engine builder who has done that combo could spec what was needed.
I would question the premise though, if just to save weight, for that short of a run the liquid cooling system needed is pretty small. A tiny radiator, a couple gallons of water, and a small electric pump is all that is needed, maybe a small fan. Small, light aluminum/plastic radiators are available at any pick-a-part salvage yard on the cheap if a budget is important. Your example of possibly coming up with some kind of air pump would most likely add back in the weight saved over a liquid cooling system.
Would the rules allow an air cooled engine? Why re-engineer the engine if someone has already done the work for you. I've seen people build some really light dragsters with snowmobile engines for example. Just throwing it out there, lots of possibilities, but what is or isn't allowed by the rules is the first hurtle.
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Why not just run water in the engine, no pump, belts, pulleys, etc?
As others did then and now, we ran our Boss 302 injected gas FED with just head/block water, no other circulation system nor radiator. Run time from warm-up, burnout, staging and a mid 10 second run must have been 2-3 minutes. Petcocks on both sides let the now pretty hot water out in seconds. A quick cool-down, more tap-temp water loaded in through screw-off tops to the Enderle injector intake top water fills at the front and we were ready for another run.
Where were racing this dragster? Back in the early 70s, there was a front engine dragster at Mission Raceway IN BC Canada with a stack FI Boss 302 with Hi Port heads. That you?
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Why not just run water in the engine, no pump, belts, pulleys, etc?
As others did then and now, we ran our Boss 302 injected gas FED with just head/block water, no other circulation system nor radiator. Run time from warm-up, burnout, staging and a mid 10 second run must have been 2-3 minutes. Petcocks on both sides let the now pretty hot water out in seconds. A quick cool-down, more tap-temp water loaded in through screw-off tops to the Enderle injector intake top water fills at the front and we were ready for another run.
Keep in mind the entire water jacket system in almost any V-8 can't even be 5-6 quarts @7.7 lb.s gallon = 12 lb.s or so. Even an FE can't hold but say 6 quarts or about that 12lbs. max. We'd fire the engine dry for about 1 minute after a teardown but that was only to ascertain the copper head gaskets w/aluminum paint sealed up. Be sure if you go this route to add topside water exits lines (think: small diameter F.I. SS lines) at the engine's back to allow hot water to escape below the chassis.
Staging lane times could reach 15 minutes later in the evening when it gets busier. Nowhere to dump hot water. Keep in mind that we get into triple digits here, so coming off the trailer the block is already warm.
Anyone put a cyl head temp gauge on their engine?
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I don't have any real answers backed up by engineering studies or math or anything, but it's not unusual for a few drag race classes to run without a traditional cooling system at all. Especially examples like you mentioned that are short duration, and often if they are alcohol fueled. The race cars will be towed to the starting line though, so under your example it would have to be determined if that was allowed by the rules. But just running without a cooling system isn't treading any new ground, I'd guess any experienced engine builder who has done that combo could spec what was needed.
I would question the premise though, if just to save weight, for that short of a run the liquid cooling system needed is pretty small. A tiny radiator, a couple gallons of water, and a small electric pump is all that is needed, maybe a small fan. Small, light aluminum/plastic radiators are available at any pick-a-part salvage yard on the cheap if a budget is important. Your example of possibly coming up with some kind of air pump would most likely add back in the weight saved over a liquid cooling system.
Would the rules allow an air cooled engine? Why re-engineer the engine if someone has already done the work for you. I've seen people build some really light dragsters with snowmobile engines for example. Just throwing it out there, lots of possibilities, but what is or isn't allowed by the rules is the first hurtle.
The reason a small water system wouldn't work is wait time at idle over 100 degrees ambient. No real rules there. Mostly meant as a fun thing, so you'll see ATV's and 2-wheeled stuff and what not. No tech inspection.
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I think air is much much less dense than water. That would be the primary problem. For a given volume you will have so many less molecules to transfer the heat to. The most efficient way to transfer heat is by having your coolant go through a phase change. Generally that means using your heat to boil a liquid. It takes heat energy to increase the temperature of a liquid, but when the liquid goes through a phase change, to a gas, then a whole bunch of energy is transferred. It's not easy though because then you have both liquid and gas in the same system. Shit, sorry for rambling, but long story short I don't think so on using air. Heck, even "air cooled" engines are partially oil cooled.
JMO,
paulie
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A constant loss cooling system might work. I'm not sure if I have the terminology right, but what I mean is that you have liquid coolant in your engine, but it's not a closed system. The coolant boils off and is lost/vented to the atmosphere. You would have a coolant reservoir just big enough to run as long as you need it to. Maybe you could time so the coolant was basically gone by the time you need to hit the gas.
If traction is the goal, why not put most of the cooling system and coolant in the rear of the vehicle? Much easier than trying to reengineer an entire cooling system.
JMO,
paulie
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The reason a small water system wouldn't work is wait time at idle over 100 degrees ambient. No real rules there. Mostly meant as a fun thing, so you'll see ATV's and 2-wheeled stuff and what not. No tech inspection.
Since I don't have direct knowledge of this event, that still leaves lots of questions...
Are all these vehicles running in the same class?
With no rules and no tech...Build a pair of tube frame rails with the nastiest snowmobile or motorcycle engine you can find, skip everything else. It's your butt on the line so up to you if you feel the need for something like safety. If you're set on using a cast iron block check into using alcohol for fuel, engine runs much cooler. Used alcohol circle track carbs are easy to find. Can you tow a good sized water tank up to the starting line with you? then unhook it before making the run? Then you could get by with just the water in the block. Hook it back up after the run and circulate until the next run. They make quick connect liquid fittings.
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Nope! Only raced here in the Midwest at Union Grove, WI and Rockford Dragway in Rockford, IL.
Why not just run water in the engine, no pump, belts, pulleys, etc?
As others did then and now, we ran our Boss 302 injected gas FED with just head/block water, no other circulation system nor radiator. Run time from warm-up, burnout, staging and a mid 10 second run must have been 2-3 minutes. Petcocks on both sides let the now pretty hot water out in seconds. A quick cool-down, more tap-temp water loaded in through screw-off tops to the Enderle injector intake top water fills at the front and we were ready for another run.
Where were racing this dragster? Back in the early 70s, there was a front engine dragster at Mission Raceway IN BC Canada with a stack FI Boss 302 with Hi Port heads. That you?
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Alcohol for fuel
Evans for coolant.
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would only work with liquid nitrogen. an orifice in each water pump hole, open the valve & go. no fan or compressor needed as the nitro is already under pressure. big heavy tank in the trunk for added traction. Train the trunk monkey to open the valve on the last yellow and it's a win-win-win. It would be spectacular to watch with all that fog.
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My 390 was air cooled this weekend. Paid the price. ;D
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FElony, are you eating those brownies being sold by a guy at the park with dreadlocks again? ;D
Um, uh, so, you know about that, huh? Damn social media doxxers. Actually, my favorite male vocalist has dreads, too. I'd air that one out but I don't think you guys can handle. FElony entertainment. Mmmm, brownies.
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The reason a small water system wouldn't work is wait time at idle over 100 degrees ambient. No real rules there. Mostly meant as a fun thing, so you'll see ATV's and 2-wheeled stuff and what not. No tech inspection.
Since I don't have direct knowledge of this event, that still leaves lots of questions...
Are all these vehicles running in the same class?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT9ll-76swg
My vehicle in question is El Alacran, the '69 Ranchero made infamous in the other forum about three years back or so. It's my Wild Card.
In-truck vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzdDN-sY9qE
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I once helped with the installation of a 427 into a '57 Ford. The owner fired it up before installing the radiator, and probably let it run for a couple of minutes before turning it off. The engine came to no harm during that period.
Many drag cars use only water in the heads---using a fully-filled block.
I daily-drove a 2.3 four-cylinder '79 Mustang with a fairly serious draw-through Turbo set-up, using a DCOE Weber carb. Knew a guy with an early 'vette (265 CID) and I could get him soundly. Ran a 4.62 8" rear. Used a VW aluminum radiator that probably weighed about five pounds. The whole system held about a gallon of coolant. Never had any overheating problems.
KS
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A number of those ugly RatRods use a rear mounted radiator and fan. That keeps weight off the nose and more on the rear end.
Richard
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My 390 was air cooled this weekend. Paid the price. ;D
Yes, so I read. What a drag. Hopefully it'll be a quicky fix, if there is such a thing when you have to pull the engine. :-\
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There is a group that runs 1/8 mile dirt drags around Ohio. They run a race during our truck show in June. They have classes for everything, 4 wheelers up to semis. Talk about a crowd!!! It's packed, especially with the 4wd diesel truck class. Every redneck in the state shows up.
http://www.koidragracing.com/
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There is a group that runs 1/8 mile dirt drags around Ohio. They run a race during our truck show in June. They have classes for everything, 4 wheelers up to semis. Talk about a crowd!!! It's packed, especially with the 4wd diesel truck class. Every redneck in the state shows up.
http://www.koidragracing.com/
I checked for videos because I couldn't visualize 1/8 mile on dirt. I have seen 300' on actual sand, but 660' on dirt? Yikes! I found several KOI vids; this one appears to be 200' to me. What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD4DTxCJjSg
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A number of those ugly RatRods use a rear mounted radiator and fan. That keeps weight off the nose and more on the rear end.
Richard
I am thinking I might be able to get 4" wide fence blocks into the Ranchero tailgate.
Add edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfrfJ5AFZ1g
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I checked for videos because I couldn't visualize 1/8 mile on dirt. I have seen 300' on actual sand, but 660' on dirt? Yikes! I found several KOI vids; this one appears to be 200' to me. What do you think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD4DTxCJjSg
Ya, they only run 200ft at Ashland. They basically run on the truck pull track in the center of the horse track. It's pretty fun to watch, haven't ever actually raced, though buddies have told me to unload the wagon and take it over!! Ah, not! I complain about the dust at a dragstrip....doh! We have a few local guys that run their big trucks.
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Now that is the best idea. Easy to do, weight on the back and no fried engine! Methinks this is the best solution and puts to bed any idea of air cooling....which will never, ever work. That or FElony needs to dump that FE and get a Porsche flat-six!
A number of those ugly RatRods use a rear mounted radiator and fan. That keeps weight off the nose and more on the rear end.
Richard
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Now that is the best idea. Easy to do, weight on the back and no fried engine! Methinks this is the best solution and puts to bed any idea of air cooling....which will never, ever work. That or FElony needs to dump that FE and get a Porsche flat-six!
A number of those ugly RatRods use a rear mounted radiator and fan. That keeps weight off the nose and more on the rear end.
Richard
FElony has at least 3 dozen FE's, so that's a lot of dumpin'. Much less strenuous to sit out back eatin' brownies from the Rasta man and comin' up with zany ideas.
However, even without brownie influence, I think I'm going to try the air-cooled thing on an engine stand. I have a couple of disposable motors sitting around, so whatever.
Thanks to all who participated in this thread. Nobody mentioned fresh water marine engines that cycle river water, but that's OK. Next time.
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Kinda hard to recyle.....mother earth!
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Hmmm, here's a thought.
Three large capacity hair driers with no heaters. Plumb one pulling air from the top(like the waterneck), others pushing air in say the rear freeze plug on each side? I'd be curious as to if it would be able to hold enough airflow to control the temperature enough?
An air cooled engine just has fins to carry heat away from the block with air flow. Since water jacketed blocks have that cavity to deal with you need air flow through it to cool the sleeves.
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I don't know but a big high pressure airtank in rear, big hoses to the
waterpump hole in block adjustable outlet At the thermostat hole
may solve it. Big airflow and the highpressure air rushing out will have
a cooling effect . like when you empty in a tractor tire and the valve
stem freezes solid...or mayby the adjustabel valve should be at the inlet
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I don't know but a big high pressure airtank in rear, big hoses to the
waterpump hole in block adjustable outlet At the thermostat hole
may solve it. Big airflow and the highpressure air rushing out will have
a cooling effect . like when you empty in a tractor tire and the valve
stem freezes solid...or mayby the adjustabel valve should be at the inlet
I don't know but a big high pressure airtank in rear, big hoses to the
waterpump hole in block adjustable outlet At the thermostat hole
may solve it. Big airflow and the highpressure air rushing out will have
a cooling effect . like when you empty in a tractor tire and the valve
stem freezes solid...or mayby the adjustabel valve should be at the inlet
That's the Ideal Gas Law. PV=nRT. Pressure x volume = number of molecules x the gas constant R x Temp. (in Kelvin)
So if you empty the tractor tire you decrease the pressure P the temperature T on the other side of the equation goes down as well, to maintain the equilibrium. So you can get a really cold gas, but you still have the problem of heat transfer which a gas is not dense enough to do well. Sorry Felony, not happening. Call me Team Aquarius.
I like the idea of just transferring a normal liquid cooling system as far back in the vehicle as you can.
JMO,
paulie
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Yes Paulie I'm familiar with that formula that's why i was thinking about
a reduction at the thermostat hole so the air is under pressure in the block
= more molecules.(I wounder how much pressure a block can stand)
Nothing for the street i know but mayby for short runs
and if he aims a nozzle with the outgoing air rearwards he get some
amount of jet propulsion :o ;D ;D
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Or, you can install some tubing into the freeze plugs themselves, angle-weld them into header primaries, and let the exhaust flow scavenge air from the block.
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Yes Paulie I'm familiar with that formula that's why i was thinking about
a reduction at the thermostat hole so the air is under pressure in the block
= more molecules.(I wounder how much pressure a block can stand)
Nothing for the street i know but mayby for short runs
and if he aims a nozzle with the outgoing air rearwards he get some
amount of jet propulsion :o ;D ;D
Well, if we're going this far, we might as make the compressed gas something combustible. Light it after it's expanded and leaving the "cooling system" for even more thrust. :)
JMO,
paulie
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At this rate, we'll soon have an internal combustion engine built. :)
JMO,
paulie