FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: 427HISS on November 12, 2017, 09:34:05 PM
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When your taking out the engine or installing, can you bolt up to the intake carb flange, or is the FE to heavy ?
I sure don't want the intake to break causing major damage to it, the engine, the car etc..... :o
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Yes you can. Put washers under the nuts on the carb studs.
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Great, much easier than on the heads for tilting the engine where needed.
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No problem at all. I recently installed my iron headed 428 CobraJet into my 59 Ford, complete with the cast iron bellhousing, clutch assembly, and Toploader 4 speed , all together, using a carb lift plate on the aluminum Edelbrock intake manifold. The carb plate is more than adequate, and unlike chains, which can make the engine want to turn to 1 side, the lift plate, being in the center makes the engine install easy, and very manuverable,
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I've done an iron headed 429 into an aluminum edelbrock intake with no issues and I suspect a 429 is considerably heavier than any FE.
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10 years ago, I wouldn't have had the courage to try it. After hearing so many guys that have done it, I've done the last 2 this way and each time had zero problems. Both times the engine was fully loaded with accessories and bellhousing/clutch set-up.
This engine tilter from Mac's is a great little piece. It's a tad expensive, but if you're like me and have to do it on your own, this thing is handy as heck. It makes getting the correct angle as simple as a slight turn of the wrench. Only downside is it doesn't work on a 2x4 intake. For that I just use 2 carb plates.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtd-701001
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i just installed one with the c6 trans and all with the carb plate,must have been 7-8 hundred pounds-no problem
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Been lucky to always need a tilter(since everything I have has 2x4). I stick the chain hooks in the exhaust ports and lift it up. Really easy.
Buddy used a carb plate on a 460/trans combo and nearly ripped that little carb plate into pieces.
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I only use a carb plate and have never had any issue.
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10 years ago, I wouldn't have had the courage to try it. After hearing so many guys that have done it, I've done the last 2 this way and each time had zero problems. Both times the engine was fully loaded with accessories and bellhousing/clutch set-up.
This engine tilter from Mac's is a great little piece. It's a tad expensive, but if you're like me and have to do it on your own, this thing is handy as heck. It makes getting the correct angle as simple as a slight turn of the wrench. Only downside is it doesn't work on a 2x4 intake. For that I just use 2 carb plates.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/mtd-701001
Wow, now that is a great tool. I watched the linked video's too. But, wow,.....$175 bucks. CAN I RENT YOURS ? !!!
I've always used a plate on the carb surface wth small blocks, never a big block. When you add a flywheel, clutch, steel bell and a tranny, I'm shocked that the carb surface and the intake can support that much weight !
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Wow, now that is a great tool. I watched the linked video's too. But, wow,.....$175 bucks. CAN I RENT YOURS ? !!!
I wouldn't have a problem letting you borrow it, free of charge, as long as I got it back in a reasonable amount of time. I'll be needing it come Spring time. PM me your address and I'll send it to you...assuming you live in the U.S.?
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I have a well used carb plate. Will support C6 and engine but I have not used it on an aluminum intake. I saw a 2×4 Offenhauser fall off a 3' table and break the rear corner off, right through the bolt hole. Freak thing that happened but so is a hand being crushed or severed by a falling engine.
EDIT: I have heard the Offy is considered to be one of the best castings. My Port-O-Sonic had a better appearance than any of my old porous Edelbrock Street Masters. The bolts and threads are strong enough. When a loaded plate crowns a gap down the middle it is also wedges the studs in the intake for a better grip. I would be concerned about finding a bad casting the hard way.
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My plate is from Summit and it stout enough that it does not flex in the least. I've pulled motors with aluminum intakes including tunnel rams using that plate since 1998 when I bought the engine crane. The thread pull out on aluminum is typically quite high. Times 4 should be way more than an engine/trans combo.
From the web:
Have done a lot of reading on the 'net trying to find a definitive answer for calculating the Pull Out Force of a screw in Aluminum.
Here are the knowns
5/16-18 SHCS Class 2 Gr 8
6061 Aluminum plate 3/4" thick (40ksi ?)
Length of engagement = 5/8"
Answer
Shear strength for 6061-T6 is 30 ksi.
Your force would be ~ 15 000 pounds.
For a 1/4" fastener:
5/8" thread engagement is 2.5 diameters of 1/4" threads. In aluminum, the SHCS will pull apart before the thread strips. If you're really worried, add a helicoil. Guaranteed the fastener will fail first.
The hydraulic ram test is interesting, but unfortunately doesn't tell you when the joint will fail under tension. I've never seen a 1/4-20 SHCS rated for >7000 pounds tension.
Yes load is divided among all fasteners, assuming the joint is stiff, they're located properly, and well-tightened.
From memory, if your SHCS is steel and well-torqued, it should be good for ~5300 lbf of tension.
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My plate is from Summit and it stout enough that it does not flex in the least. I've pulled motors with aluminum intakes including tunnel rams using that plate since 1998 when I bought the engine crane.
I have not measured mine either but you can see a couple of thousands if yoir at the right angle. None of us can guaranty an accident will or will not happen.
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My plate is from Summit and it stout enough that it does not flex in the least. I've pulled motors with aluminum intakes including tunnel rams using that plate since 1998 when I bought the engine crane. The thread pull out on aluminum is typically quite high. Times 4 should be way more than an engine/trans combo.
From the web:
Have done a lot of reading on the 'net trying to find a definitive answer for calculating the Pull Out Force of a screw in Aluminum.
Here are the knowns
5/16-18 SHCS Class 2 Gr 8
6061 Aluminum plate 3/4" thick (40ksi ?)
Length of engagement = 5/8"
Answer
Shear strength for 6061-T6 is 30 ksi.
Your force would be ~ 15 000 pounds.
For a 1/4" fastener:
5/8" thread engagement is 2.5 diameters of 1/4" threads. In aluminum, the SHCS will pull apart before the thread strips. If you're really worried, add a helicoil. Guaranteed the fastener will fail first.
The hydraulic ram test is interesting, but unfortunately doesn't tell you when the joint will fail under tension. I've never seen a 1/4-20 SHCS rated for >7000 pounds tension.
Yes load is divided among all fasteners, assuming the joint is stiff, they're located properly, and well-tightened.
From memory, if your SHCS is steel and well-torqued, it should be good for ~5300 lbf of tension.
Yep I always chuckle when I see posts worrying about lifting an engine/trans combo via the carb plate. For sure one 5/16-18 grade 2 bolt could lift that weight with a 4X+ safety factor. I do understand the concern about the aluminum intakes but it is completely unwarranted. As long as you have 3-4 threads engaged the bolt will fail way before the threads in the even in an aluminum intake.
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Only thought regarding possible failure.... many of those universal carb lift plates have big holes or slots, use good washers.
Below, a iron headed 429 being lifted out of my car.
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http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=909794&page=3
Also, I used to work for an instrument company. We sold chart recorders to nuclear power plants. All those units had to seismically certified. We did our testing at Southwest Research in San Antonio. The 11" units weighed 65 lbs. They used a "jack screw" assembly, one on each side that was a stamped 18 gauge steel box, a captive nut and 3/8" all thread to bear against the relay rack mounting plate. The rack mount plate was 1/8" flat CRS steel, held to the rack with the standard 10-32 rack screws, 8 total. Shook the ever-lovin shit out of those things and never had the mounting fail. you have to see to believe what a shake table can do with a full 6' relay rack mounted to it full if instrumentation.
So for me, four 5/16 studs with washers and nuts holding a 1/8 steel plate to a 750 lb motor is piss nothing, whatever.
LOL, sample - SRI table and rack test, minus instruments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6fzUZhVdPo
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FWIW, if there were to be such a thing as a 20' long railroad tie, I'd have no problem walking it from end to end. Put that same tie 100 feet in the air and I'd surely fall off and kill myself. The mind plays tricks.
I have no doubt, from a scientific viewpoint, that the pull-out strength, in an aluminum casting, of four carb studs is several times the weight of an FE engine complete with a C6 trans attached. But the idea of using a carb plate still makes me uneasy.
I use a chain attached to the engine/trans in such a way that it can be picked up at enough of an angle to put the whole thing in at one time. Manually lift the tailshaft housing over the rad support and it'll slide right in with ease. Use a small floor jack, positioned to hold the back end of the trans, and let it roll back into position as the engine is lowered.
(And, by the way, an FE isn't really a 'Heavy dog'. An FE, with the usual aluminum acoutrements, actually weighs less than an all-iron small block.)
KS
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(And, by the way, an FE isn't really a 'Heavy dog'. An FE, with the usual aluminum acoutrements, actually weighs less than an all-iron small block.)
KS
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X2. In fact I had a dilemma taking my cross bolt 390 to get it sonic checked, I had no one to help me put it in my truck and I didn't have a engine hoist.
Well when I was young (62 now) I knew I was able to pick up a block. So carefully I tried it and was able to lift it into my truck without any back sprains (LOL)
So how much did it weigh? I didn't know.
When I picked up my new BBM block Doug loaded it with a fork lift and I moved it to the front of the truck bed.
Right away something was wrong, It was a lot heavier and I thought I better not try lifting it. I asked Doug how much it weighed, he said "about 50lbs heavier than a factory iron block"
so I ask how much is the factory block? He said about 190lbs. So there is my limit and it's going lower with each passing year, but in retrospect it seams pretty light for what it is.
(maybe the iron intake is were the FE picks up the misinformation about being heavy)
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that is why I am glad there is more aluminum parts being made for our engines . I really like the aluminum floor jacks , so much easier to move around as the years go by .
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I used to be able to hump an empty 351C block in the back of a pickup. Uh, not so much anymore.
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For years all I have heard is that the FE especially the 390 is a boat anchor..
In truth the FE and most Ford engines are lighter the "other brand" you know the chevy.. hahaha
and the power out put is as good as the (other brand) 352\360hp 390\370hp 427\425 over 550 in truth
http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/engineweights.html
Best
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I used to hump 302 blocks without issue when I was 20(was not into FE's yet)
Today? Nope, not without screwing myself up really, really bad. Cranks are bad enough anymore.... :o
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My friend made my plate, he was a certifed welder. It's 1/4" steel, with a ring welded in the center. It won't flex any at all. I have no problem using it.
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http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=909794&page=3
Also, I used to work for an instrument company. We sold chart recorders to nuclear power plants. All those units had to seismically certified. We did our testing at Southwest Research in San Antonio. The 11" units weighed 65 lbs. They used a "jack screw" assembly, one on each side that was a stamped 18 gauge steel box, a captive nut and 3/8" all thread to bear against the relay rack mounting plate. The rack mount plate was 1/8" flat CRS steel, held to the rack with the standard 10-32 rack screws, 8 total. Shook the ever-lovin shit out of those things and never had the mounting fail. you have to see to believe what a shake table can do with a full 6' relay rack mounted to it full if instrumentation.
So for me, four 5/16 studs with washers and nuts holding a 1/8 steel plate to a 750 lb motor is piss nothing, whatever.
LOL, sample - SRI table and rack test, minus instruments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6fzUZhVdPo
Lol,....the info on that link is amazing, on how many lbs the intake,....takes !
Sure ease's my mind.
Thanks buddy !
Kevin
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For years all I have heard is that the FE especially the 390 is a boat anchor..
In truth the FE and most Ford engines are lighter the "other brand" you know the chevy.. hahaha
and the power out put is as good as the (other brand) 352\360hp 390\370hp 427\425 over 550 in truth
http://www.gomog.com/allmorgan/engineweights.html
Best
The link says the 428 (and others) is 650 lbs. ?
Mine fully dressed & delivered on a pallet was 500lbs.