FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: preaction on July 26, 2017, 06:09:04 PM
-
The pond site states its heads with a CNC clean up are 393@.700 and 270@.700, does anyone know numbers for Bill coons heads ?
-
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=293.0
-
...does anyone know numbers for Bill coons heads ?
Does anyone care?
-
I have a pair of Coon SOHC heads that I bought from Jay, one of the sets that he got in his second batch. I brought them to Brian at R&R Performance in Spring Lake Park Minnesota, the same person Jay uses, since I knew by that time he had some experience working on Jay's heads. At that time Jay had found the Ferrera light weight valves were considerably lighter than what he had been using, so I bought a set of those. Further testing by Jay and Brian found the light weight Ferrera valves are not the best choice for max flow though, but I decided to stick with them anyway. Brian at R&R did the valve job and just a minor cleanup of the port under the valve seat, he did not do any other porting on my set. They are not "as cast", but not too far off. Brian flowed my heads, he also provided the flow figures for my heads but with the Manley valves he and Jay had found flowed much better. One thing this shows is head flow, like everything on a race car, is all about the complete "package" and not just the head casting itself. Jay has covered this topic in the past in one of his SOHC builds, he probably remembers more of the results they found. Here are my flow figures:
Intake
Lift .100 .200 .300 .400 .500 .600 .700 .800
Ferrera 77 158 225 280 324 345 354 357
Manley 80 163 239 312 361 381 385 386
Exhaust
Ferrera 53 112 175 208 235 260 280 293
Manley 56 111 174 219 260 285 296 303
-
Does anyone care?
The pursuit of knowledge should be independent of personal hatred for somebody's business practices. Any FE car nut that is also a man of science would care to know how the two SOHC heads compare.
-
Knowledge of a crook is a sore subject on the forum owned by the victim of the crooked vendor. I always was taught that "blood was thicker than water", so I take up for a friend in Jay Brown. Don't bash his forum, or his work, or his word, and don't bring up a touchy subject to cause more strife. JMO, Joe-JDC
-
Knowledge of a crook is a sore subject on the forum owned by the victim of the crooked vendor. I always was taught that "blood was thicker than water", so I take up for a friend in Jay Brown. Don't bash his forum, or his work, or his word, and don't bring up a touchy subject to cause more strife. JMO, Joe-JDC
I don't understand your comment. I've been around this forum long enough to know Jay had issues with Coon but nobody in this thread has bashed Jay or this forum in any way.
I like the knowledge shared on these FE forums...particularly Jay's forum, but seems like one has to be careful about kicking over a hornets' nest with a simple question or comment. Maybe the OP doesn't know about the issues Jay had. Should he just throw away the SOHC heads he bought because of the bad history?
-
Knowledge of a crook is a sore subject on the forum owned by the victim of the crooked vendor. I always was taught that "blood was thicker than water", so I take up for a friend in Jay Brown. Don't bash his forum, or his work, or his word, and don't bring up a touchy subject to cause more strife. JMO, Joe-JDC
The members on here should be able to talk about engine performance without getting bogged down with a conversation that has nothing to do with engine performance. There are a lot of stories about Bill Coon's shady business practices and the many victims as a result of those business practices. But every time someone talks about a set of Coon SOHC heads, the conversation doesn't need to turn into a bash Bill Coon thread. Jay has a thread that details all of his unfortunate dealings with Bill Coon, and that is a perfect place to keep the opinions and facts about Bill Coon's business practices. I for one am interested in learning more about how the RPM SOHC heads and the Coon SOHC heads (and Dove if they still make them, and Paul Munro if he ever got to it) compare, with regards to engine performance, casting quality, and particular design characteristics. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that people keep their comments about Bill Coon's business practices out of this thread so that we can focus on what the OP actually asked about.
I appreciate Jay's knowledge and expertise on all things SOHC, and that he has taken up hosting a forum dedicated to the FE engine. He's also a fellow engineer, and I hope he can understand that pursuing knowledge about how various engine parts perform should be done separately from a lynch mob. He's one of the few members on here who has actually owned both RPM and Bill Coon SOHC heads, besides having done an insane amount of FE related engine testing.
In all of this, I am trying to respectful and courteous of Jay. The SOHC is a legendary engine, and anyone interested in the engine is going to come across the Coon heads. It's an incredibly small parts group, there is no way to avoid the Coon heads even after Bill Coon dies or gets murdered by an angry victim. In the long run, it would result in less questions about how the various heads compare if someone like Jay or Berry just went a did a full comparison. When pretty much every question about the various SOHC head options has been looked at for comparison purposes, conversations like this one can be avoided. The forum can then get back to treating Bill Coon like the one-who-shall-not-be-named. Maybe we should start referring to him as Voldemort, I might be the only Harry Potter fan on here though.
-
Nah, not Voldemort.
More like Satan incarnate! ;)
LOL
-
....I might be the only Harry Potter fan on here though.
Well at least you got this part right.
And in case you missed it, Kevin answered the question.
-
Jay, your post is very interesting. It's specific details about both, that would come up in a comparison, that would be worth knowing. How many people out there right now, that would consider buying a set of SOHC heads, know all the details of the various options? Especially if they are new to the engine. It would be nice to read about the design considerations behind the Pond heads, I think that would be new information. You can find a set of Coon heads on eBay pretty much 24/7, what's to stop someone from going through a middle man to get a set of heads? I think it would be interesting to read a comparison that paints a clear picture of which is the best product. It would be easy I'm sure to paint a picture of which company is the honorable one to do business with.
And in a bigger picture, the SOHC community is getting pretty old. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks about the knowledge that will be lost about this engine when some of the original guys who played with them, are no longer around.
-
Jay, I didn't know Ponds heads have design features from Blair and Jon how would anyone know that ?
-
You could call Robert Pond and ask, I suppose. If I remember correctly, Robert had Blair port a set of prototype heads, and also had Jon Kaase port a set, and then he picked Jon's intake port and Blair's exhaust port to incorporate into the finished design.
-
That is really great information about the Pond head. I have wondered between the three available which would be the best choice to start a build. You sure wouldn't want to make a mistake with the cost involved.
-
What is the third SOHC head available?
-
Ford.
-
What is the third SOHC head available?
Aside from the originals cast by Ford which aren't really available anymore, Dove created full SOHC kits and they still might. I think I remember reading that Dove's castings had porosity issues a while back. Paul Munro in Australia also creates heads, intakes and timing chain covers. How much of the stuff from Dove and Munro you can still get your hands on, I'm not sure. I first found out about Paul Munro when I read Jay's article in Hot Rod, so perhaps Jay would know if the Aussie connection is still in business. His US contact was Les Blahut.
-
Dove actually produced a surprising number of SOHC heads and kits. But they haven't cast anything for a while. There was a recent rumor that they were going to make some more SOHC rockers.
-
It's a niche market. Kirkham seems to produce a Cammer Cobra every now and then, it's a popular engine for their clients that want to go crazy. But a brand new SOHC will run you about $40-50k, so it's understandable why you don't see them all the time in projects.
Am I right that Keith sold Keith Craft Performance Engines? I know they used to advertise a SOHC engine build all the time on eBay, with Coon heads. That always made me think that Coon must have made sure he didn't screw over Keith...
-
I know someone who bought a cammer kit from Dove and abandoned it because of porosity.
-
Maybe a Kuntz n Craft reunion???
-
I was referring to Dove as the third supplier. I had seen information and pictures about the Munro products but never have really seen anyone use or test them.
-
There was a cammer reunion not that long ago.
-
I was referring to Dove as the third supplier. I had seen information and pictures about the Munro products but never have really seen anyone use or test them.
The Munro heads were widely used in Australia, but not too many were sold here in the US. However, Munro's heads are no longer his, he has sold that part of his business to the machine shop in Australia that was originally machining the heads. As it happens I know the guy who runs that shop and am working with him to develop a higher performance version of the head. If things work out on this, look for FE Power SOHC heads to become available sometime in the next 6-12 months.
-
Jay that's great news is there any chance you will be able to bring cam bearings to market as of now they cant be purchased.
-
Maybe a Kuntz n Craft reunion???
I wouldn't count on it. The business that Craft started is still going, but Keith is no longer involved. Sold or passed on to his employees as I understand. And rumor has it that Paul is having some problems of a personal nature and may not be around for a while. I won't speculate what that means, but it didn't sound good.
-
Jay that's great news is there any chance you will be able to bring cam bearings to market as of now they cant be purchased.
Have you tried Dove, Barry R, Pond, or Precision Oil Pumps for the bearings? If they all say they are not available, then another production run will have to be made of them. Barry R would be your best bet for that...
-
Jay, that would be great to have you involved in the design of a SOHC head. I was going to ask if you planned to start that after your wedge heads and intakes. Do you know anyone that tried the Munro 2x4 intake? I don't know how you do it with all the irons you have in the fire!!
-
Jay that's great news is there any chance you will be able to bring cam bearings to market as of now they cant be purchased.
Have you tried Dove, Barry R, Pond, or Precision Oil Pumps for the bearings? If they all say they are not available, then another production run will have to be made of them. Barry R would be your best bet for that...
I'm out...for now
Thought I had some all set, but the deal came unglued. Not sure if I can reassemble it since the folks I knew at F-M have all been "retired". I have at least one order still hanging that I am going to need to refund.
-
That's fabulous that their will be more SOHC heads on the market. Competition is good.
There are several processes that might cure the porosity of the Dove parts, so all is not lost on the stuff.
-
I for one am very glad Jay is doing a FE Power SOHC head, especially with increased performance. Is it wrong to buy the heads before the block??
-
jay has came out with so many quality parts for the fe and more in the works. makes me reluctant to buy any new fe stuff and wait till all these new parts become available.
-
I agree ! I don't know how he finds the time! I have been waiting to see if his source for blocks comes through that would be nice. He will have SOHC heads plus his revised rocker arms plus new wedge heads and intakes... looks like we all better start saving to place an order!!
-
I have a pair of Coon SOHC heads that I bought from Jay, one of the sets that he got in his second batch. I brought them to Brian at R&R Performance in Spring Lake Park Minnesota, the same person Jay uses, since I knew by that time he had some experience working on Jay's heads. At that time Jay had found the Ferrera light weight valves were considerably lighter than what he had been using, so I bought a set of those. Further testing by Jay and Brian found the light weight Ferrera valves are not the best choice for max flow though, but I decided to stick with them anyway. Brian at R&R did the valve job and just a minor cleanup of the port under the valve seat, he did not do any other porting on my set. They are not "as cast", but not too far off. Brian flowed my heads, he also provided the flow figures for my heads but with the Manley valves he and Jay had found flowed much better. One thing this shows is head flow, like everything on a race car, is all about the complete "package" and not just the head casting itself. Jay has covered this topic in the past in one of his SOHC builds, he probably remembers more of the results they found. Here are my flow figures:
Intake
Lift .100 .200 .300 .400 .500 .600 .700 .800
Ferrera 77 158 225 280 324 345 354 357
Manley 80 163 239 312 361 381 385 386
Exhaust
Ferrera 53 112 175 208 235 260 280 293
Manley 56 111 174 219 260 285 296 303
Big obvious question...did both intake valves have a back cut? The flow numbers represent something that looks very much like the Ferrea valves didn't, and the Manley valves did.
What happens after .800? (I know nothing about the SOHC head) What size valve and what's the valve job? FWIW I've gotten the best intake flow numbers across the board with Rev valves. I won't use a Manley valve. The Ferrea Competition valves are very good valves, they just don't flow well for some reason, even with a back cut. Those Manley intake numbers are good numbers.
-
The head design of the valves is very different between the lightweight Ferrera and the specific Manley, especially the intake valves if I remember. Valve sizes are 2.300 & 1.900. Flow over .800 lift wasn't tested, hard to get a Cammer with much lift at the valve over that due to the rocker ratio, something Jay is trying to solve. Jay did a whole write up on the valve testing back when he was building that particular engine, maybe he remembers where the post is and some more of the details.
-
361 cfm at .500 lift, clearly quality needs to go hand and hand with quantity I'm not an engine professional but this is a lot going on for 1/2" lift. Would anyone care to comment on how this could play out with a 520 CI street build.
-
361 cfm at .500 lift, clearly quality needs to go hand and hand with quantity I'm not an engine professional but this is a lot going on for 1/2" lift. Would anyone care to comment on how this could play out with a 520 CI street build.
My 532ci BB Chev pump gas engines with a 2.3 valve flowing very very similar numbers (within a cfm or two) make over 800hp @ ~6500 and 700 tq @ ~5000 with >.700" lift in the 260 @ .05 range, single 1050 carb. I'd be interested in any cross section information on the cammer heads. The minimum in the BB Chev heads is right at 3.0" sq in. The one big advantage this particular BB Chev combination has is a 4.60 bore x 4" stroke.
-
I think the bigger question is why the stall on the intake port on the chart shown after .500 lift?
-
The stock SOHC ports all seem to have that stall, and I think it is just the basic port design. Factory SOHC cams had lift just shy of 0.600", and of course the intake had to fit under the hood of a Galaxie for NASCAR purposes, so the ports have more of a curve in them than would be ideal. The port designs I've worked with raise that intake port significantly, and that helps a lot with flow at the higher lift.
The Ferrea intake valves are a completely flat valve on the back side, with no taper or tulip shape at all, whereas the Manley valves that I've used have either a 7 degree or 10 degree taper or tulip on the back side. I think this is the primary difference between the valves, and the reason for the marginal flow of the Ferreas.
Back at the end of 2008 when I was getting serious about the port work on the SOHC I got the following intake flow numbers from a raised port head with the 2.300" Manley valve:
0.100" - 83
0.200" - 176
0.300" - 280
0.400" - 361
0.500" - 412
0.600" - 434
0.700" - 443
0.800" - 453
This was on a SuperFlow SF-600 bench and using a 4.500" bore size, which happened to be the bore size I was using on my 585" SOHC engine. The engine ended up making 960 HP at 6700 RPM, using a Hilborn mechanical fuel injection intake that had been converted to EFI, and raised on the heads with 3/8" port plates so that the ports would line up. The engine was handicapped somewhat with the 2-7/16" throttle plates in the intake. Port cross section was about 3.5 square inches (round 2-1/8" diameter port, which is just a hair over the stock size of 2.060"). This engine ran 9.50s and a best of 9.48@143 in my 64 Galaxie, which weighed 3935 with me in it, during Drag Week 2009.
Since that time of course I've made other improvements to the heads, and they flow a little more now than they did before. I'm hoping to incorporate those changes into the Australian heads that I'm working on, to make a really high performance SOHC head available.
-
Jay, how much can you change the rocker ratio on the SOHC? What would you do to change it? I don't think you can really move the location of the rocker shaft. Would the solution be a thinner rocker shaft? That could allow you some relocation. I'd imagine you'd figure out what the inner diameter needed to be for oil flow, and then figure out what the outer diameter needed to be for the desired ratio. Then make it out of a strong alloy.
-
Jay I started this thread because I knew of your working with Bills heads and this web site is the only place these parts have had any conversation on them. Thanks for posting your findings clearly it makes for healthy debate. As a side note I don't think a vendor like Bill deserves support from this community, I do believe the parts will make it into builds just for the fact of supply and demand and the niche market these parts supply.
-
Jay, how much can you change the rocker ratio on the SOHC? What would you do to change it? I don't think you can really move the location of the rocker shaft. Would the solution be a thinner rocker shaft? That could allow you some relocation. I'd imagine you'd figure out what the inner diameter needed to be for oil flow, and then figure out what the outer diameter needed to be for the desired ratio. Then make it out of a strong alloy.
See Pages 4-5 for a SOHC rocker ratio back-and-forth.
http://fepower.net/simplemachinesforum/index.php?topic=3515.60
-
I think the bigger question is why the stall on the intake port on the chart shown after .500 lift?
Some ported 351C 2V heads do that at around .450. I have a set - makes a loud POP on the flow bench when the air fails to make the short turn. Dramatic. Low port with flat floor and fairly sharp turn can do it I think. The 4V heads I flowed with port stuffers that effectively raise the port floor about 3/8" or so did not exhibit any sudden flow changes, they just ran out of increase around .550. In an ode to "bigger ain't always better", the exhaust on my 2V set flow 220 CFM @ .500, not bad for a bitty port. The big cleaned up exhaust on the 4V units gave out at 199 CFM @ .500
-
See Pages 4-5 for a SOHC rocker ratio back-and-forth.
Thanks for the link. Looks like Jay already had the same thoughts as I did a long time ago. Sometimes while reading what Jay is thinking about doing to increase performance, I'm reminded of Mickey Thompson and Sneaky Pete Robinson. Those guys explored the SOHC and how to improve it back when it was still supported by Ford.
-
Jay do you see your new heads doing better than the results of your current heads ?
-
Not straight from me, I am just trying to duplicate the flow performance of the existing heads I have. However, the castings on these heads are thicker and could allow more porting than existing heads, which of course would allow for more flow.
-
Say Jay, have you considered billet SOHC heads due to all the casting availability/volume requirement issues? Sure, the raw material would not be cheap, lots of programming before even any machining would be required and water flow passages would need to be figured out but......
If no, is the biggest factor machining time?
-
I have indeed thought about that, Bob, but I think the only way to get the water jackets where I would want them would be to make the head in two pieces, and then bolt it together. Probably an O-ring seal between the head halves. I'm not sure I would trust something like that for the long haul, so a casting with an integrated water jacket sounds more robust to me...
-
Thanks Jay. No need to reply to this one but here's what I was thinking....
Some years ago on the FE Forum were pics and some details on a billet straight valve FE head that IIRC was made by a Cobra kit car supplier. Anyway, what I do remember is that they machined into the head deck (or maybe the topside) the water passages where they wanted them. Then, they added plates with an o-ring to cover said passages.
On edit: Found a link to actually a canted valve FE head. Know you saw this one long ago.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1228607668
Sad that this apparently was a still-born project as it seems to have vanished!
-
At least one engine was built with those heads.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF6yJscOp58
-
Yes and I'm pretty sure the bare heads were $10,000 a pair.
-
Would it make any sense to do a wet jacket chamber roof that uses the head gasket to provide the bottom enclosure? This is how many engines do a wet jacket for cooling of the cylinders in the block, the head gasket provides some of the cooling enclosure.
-
Another question on oiling on the SOHC heads. On Barry's 526 build I see he has a braided line from the right head to the left where I am assuming the oil passage runs just like on the front. Just curious about this modification. I'm guessing it maybe balances the oil flow through out the heads?
-
That is exactly what that is - a balance line. I have done it a couple times after noticing that one head was getting more oil than the other in a customer car. Not sure why it was doing that - but providing a little extra flow to the one side seemed to even things out. The line was pretty small - a -3 if I recall correctly.
-
Thanks for the reply Barry. Good information to know.