FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Dot Heton on April 18, 2017, 09:57:42 PM
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I forgot the spacer between the engine and tranny in my '66 F100. I've been thinking of the best way to get it in there and pulling back the tranny seems like the best way to go. The downfall is how greasy it is and that I'm not too strong. I think I'll put the hoist through the door and use nylon straps to support it.
I'm having a problem with snapping bolts as I was installing the pressure plate. I torqued them to 25 lbs. should I use locktite on them?
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I usually use the blue locktite. On your bolts snaping, are you pulling them down even before the final torque? It is a good idea to take the bolts down evenly over at least three rounds.
A time saving trick you may already know: Hang your pressure plate and clutch disc on the input shaft, stab the transmission, bolt up the bell housing and then start your pressure plate bolt sequence.
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My guess for breaking pressure plate bolts is that you're using old bolts. Summit Racing has them under "Arp Pressure Plate Fasteners".
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No way you should be snapping pressure plate bolts off. A couple things come to mind. First, are you using the correct 'shoulder' bolts? Are you sure they're grade 8 bolts? And like Chris said, they should be drawn up evenly. Lastly, is your torque wrench correctly calibrated? I ask that last one because many big torque wrenches, ones designed to go upwards of 150+ lbs of torque, can be off by quite a bit when using at the extreme lower end of the scale. I have several, and the one I use for stuff like that only goes to 50 ft.lbs, so 25 puts it right in the middle, where it's typically most accurate.
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A time saving trick you may already know: Hang your pressure plate and clutch disc on the input shaft, stab the transmission, bolt up the bell housing and then start your pressure plate bolt sequence.
My method was to just use a wood stick with the right shoulders to line up the plate with the pilot. As above, run around and around about one turn at a time going down with the pressure plate. Use new bolts - ARP recommended.
When stabbing the trans, get two long bolts that will thread into the top two holee on the back of the bell - 6~8" long or so. Cut the heads off and thread in the "studs" into the bell a few turns. Put the trans in gear and either stick a yoke in the tail or keep a pair of water pump pliers handy. Hang the trans on the studs and grab the tail, just wiggle a bit and slide it in. If the input shaft doesn't go right into the disk, give the tail shaft a bit of a turn. Easy pie, done it 100s of times even with no floor jack, just humping the trans off my chest. I prefer a jack LOL. Once the trans is hung on the studs it's very easy to handle and line up. A lot easier than trying to do it with a trans laying on a floor jack or what not.
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I think I'll try that long bolt trick. I tightened the pressure plate very evenly, 1/4 turn at a time. The bolts are the original shouldered grade 8 bolts. I'm just frustrated that I forgot the plate, it's my first Ford engine rebuild.
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While you're in there, throw in a new set of Arp flywheel bolts too.
Might cut a slot into those long guide bolts for a screw driver in case they stick a little when trying to unscrew them.
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I might be wrong.... but my line of thinking is this.
Does the trans fit into the engine ok without clearance issues? If yes, the only benefit to the spacer plate is to properly locate the starter. This space creates the proper gap between the starter pinion and the ring gear.
If it was me, and I had it all assembled in the car, I'd simply make a starter plate shim and just roll like that until the next time I had everything apart.
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I've thought of making a starter shim but doesn't the plate locate the starter?
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You need the plate, stuff like this happens. Fix it right and you'll sleep easier.
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Agreed, the block plate needs to be there to center the starter correctly. Without the plate, the clearance in the starter bolt holes allows the starter to have way too much slop, and chances are you will experience starter & flywheel damage and the starter bolts will keep loosening up, and possibly break the cast aluminum nose cone. And defineatly buy new high quality pressure plate bolts. Those 6 little 5/16" bolts have a critical task.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the earliest FE's not have the spacer plate?
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Yes, the 58 thru 64 FEs did not use a block plate. However, the bellhousings used with these earlier engines had a machined recess in the starter pocket to positively locate the starter motor. The later bellhousings are flat where the starter bolts, so the hole in the block plate locates the starter correctly. I guess Ford did not want to deal with the all too common grinding, screeching, binding starter issues, and damaged flywheel teeth that Chevys guys get to deal with.
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As always, appreciate the education and your input Rory.
and yeah, the two bolt Chevy starter is an abomination.
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all of my 63 & 64s have spacer plates from new.
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Interesting, I had always assumed that all the FEs with the long shaft "Follow Thru" starter, with the Bendix starter drive at the very end, came without block plates. So, was 62 the last year of no block plate? Or could it possibly be an automatic vs standard transmission issue? I had always thought that the block plates started being used when the later short shaft starters came out, I believe in 1965.
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my 64 have block plate
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my 62 COM has no block plate. 63 & 64 both auto & stick used the same plate. It does help locate the starter & gives the bottom cover a lip to seal against. If I had the motor & tranny together in the car, I would not be afraid to use washers the same thickness as the plate on the end of the starter bolts & see how the starter sounds & works. May not even need washers. Starters were just in the bell on 62 & earlier. When it's time for a clutch, then I would put it back in. You could always find another spacer plate & cut the starter ring off & put it between the starter & bell.
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Just a thought & maybe a bad one. Could you cut the plate in half, slide the trans off the dowels and slip it in from each side/top, bottom?
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I forgot the spacer between the engine and tranny in my '66 F100. I've been thinking of the best way to get it in there and pulling back the tranny seems like the best way to go. The downfall is how greasy it is and that I'm not too strong. I think I'll put the hoist through the door and use nylon straps to support it.
I'm having a problem with snapping bolts as I was installing the pressure plate. I torqued them to 25 lbs. should I use locktite on them?
Pictured is an October 17, 1957 cast iron and an aluminum bell housing from a 66 F100 C.O.M. They both appear to be cut the same but the 58's starter pocket is .100" further across or .050" closer to the bolt holes. The new starter and bell have a lot of slop there. If you did decide to leave out the plate I think you would regret it. Last fall a man bought a plate that suposedly cured a starter to flywheel problem.
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/1963%20430%20MEL/20170420_195101.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/1963%20430%20MEL/20170420_195101.jpg.html)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/1960%20MEL%20Short%20Block/20170420_195747.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/1960%20MEL%20Short%20Block/20170420_195747.jpg.html)
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Don't worry, I'm putting it in. I have thought about cutting the center bottom out and sliding it down from the top. The problem with that is the firewall overhang and the dowel spacers.
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I have been through this before but only because a prior owner did not install it. This was in an automatic but same principal. My opinion is that you probably can get away with out spacing it. The spacer would move the transmission back but will not change where the bendix engages the flywheel. The flywheel locates off the crank. Spacer or not the starter will be flush with the plane of the rear of the block as long as the transmission mates to the rear of the block as it should. As long as there are not interference issues I think it would be fine. BUT if you can make one or use washers then do it.
HOWEVER, like others mentioned the plate does locate the starter. Not having it located will cause issues. I found out the error when a starter went bad and we replaced it. Then it would not engage. This was the second starter for the truck, when I bought it we had to buy one and put it on and somehow my buddy got it right on the money(unaware/not mechanical) and it worked for two years. When I did the second one my luck did not pan out so well. I
guess we all have those friends that a rabbits foot! Mine got burned up a long time ago!
The FIX, my old man(bless his soul) was a tool maker: I will never forget this: He said: " If damned Ford engineers did their job right, everything should located and center off those three holes" so he scratched his head and came up with an idea. The locating issue comes from the starter housing bolt holes. They are "loose". Everything else the bolts go into will center/tighten. So what we did was find some bushings. Tight on the hole in the housing and tight on the bolt. By doing this it brings everything into line/center. It worked like a charm and lasted until I blew the motor a few years later.
It is not perfect but it beats pulling an engine out. He had the bushings so no help in telling you where you can get them. Just trying to throw another idea out there for you. ;) 8)
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Well I finally got that spacer in. It was easy getting the tranny out but I had to get a friend to help with alignment getting it back together. Now I just need to get my new exhaust hung and commence with the cam break in. Does everyone have that feeling of dread when starting up a new engine? Or is it just me?