FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: jayb on March 23, 2017, 08:29:16 AM
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I am reviewing a book in the process of being written by a well known automotive writer. He has asked me to review parts of the book for accuracy. One of the questions that has come up is regarding all the displacements available from the FE and FT engine during its production run. The author says the FE has been available in the following displacements:
332, 352, 360, 361, 390, 406, 410, 427, and 428
I was going to correct him on the 361, which I thought was only a truck engine, but then online I found a reference to the 361 being put into an early Edsel. Anybody know if this is correct?
For the FT engine he is saying that over the years, displacements have been available as follows:
330, 359, 360, 389, and 391
I have never heard of a 359 or 360 FT, I thought that the 361 was the only one available. I also thought that the 330" version was actually referred to as the 331. And I have never heard of a 389 FT. Can anyone with solid knowledge of this clarify the displacement list?
By the way, I am classifying the FT engines as the ones with the larger crank snout and the larger distributor hole in the block. The FE engines would not have these features. Thanks in advance for any help on this - Jay
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http://www.edsel.com/pages/edsel58.htm#Engines
361 here. The writer should/could contact the webmaster at this site for more details if need be.
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The 361 Edsel is not an FE or FT. The 330,359,361,389, and 391 are FT. The 332, 352,360,390,406,410,427,428 are FE. A 330 FT truck engine is a totally different animal from the 332 FE. Some get confused on that. I think 359/361 and 389/391 were the same dems, but compression ratios and MD or HD designations for medium or heavy duty apps were the reasons they are shown as being different engines. When I worked in an auto parts store in the '80s all of those FTs were still very common. The mom and pop store I worked at serviced two railroad lines and they still had many FT powered heavy and medium duty trucks. The paper catalogs of the day made clear the differences......ah the good ole days of paper catalogs and parts men that new something!
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As far as I know the 361 Edsel is an FE 4.05 x 3.5 used in the small Edsel (Ranger Pacer). Keep in mind the big Edsels (Corsair Citation) used MEL engines 410 cu in
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FT engines can be a bit confusing. I think a better way of categorizing them is by which type of vehicle they were intended for, which is how Ford did it. FE engines were used in the F100 to F350 series light duty trucks, FT engines were used in all the series above that, which includes medium and heavy duty trucks, some examples being the F600, B500, N500, and many more. I point that out because the 330 was made in both a 330 M/D ( medium duty ) and 330 H/D ( heavy duty ), the 330 M/D shares FE crank snout dimension and some of the front dress items, and I think maybe distributor size. Many of the other FT engines could be configured different ways depending on the type of vehicle they were going in or fleet order customer ( like U-Haul, UPS, etc. ). Here are a couple FT engine illustrations from the Ford Truck Parts book, along with displacements, just for info purposes. You'll notice Ford showed both a "High Mount Fan" and "Standard Mount Fan" types.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/FT%20engine%20illustration%20left.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/FT%20engine%20illustration%20left.jpg.html)
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/FT%20engine%20illustration%20right.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/FT%20engine%20illustration%20right.jpg.html)
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http://www.edsel.com/pages/edsel58.htm#Engines
361 here. The writer should/could contact the webmaster at this site for more details if need be.
Interesting, on the web site you linked they call this engine the E-400 but it is 361 cubic inches. It is also angle cut on the deck at 100 degrees, probably like a MEL. I don't see any reference to another 361 cubic inch engine, so I must assume that Blair is correct and that the 361 Edsel engine is not an FE.
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http://www.edsel.com/pages/edsel58.htm#Engines
361 here. The writer should/could contact the webmaster at this site for more details if need be.
Interesting, on the web site you linked they call this engine the E-400 but it is 361 cubic inches. It is also angle cut on the deck at 100 degrees, probably like a MEL. I don't see any reference to another 361 cubic inch engine, so I must assume that Blair is correct and that the 361 Edsel engine is not an FE.
Actually I think Royce is correct, I think the Edsel site has their info transposed - if you read the description under the E475 410 MEL engine they list that as 90 degree block and chamber in the head, which we know is wrong. Also, Edsel names the engines with the Torque number, hence the reason they call the 361 the E400.
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I see - thanks!
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Also a 360MD, standard 360FE crank dimensions.
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Jay I am shocked and appalled!! You doubt my knowledge on Edsels ! My EMC engine is an Edsel!!
361 was first 4.05 bore FE. As Kevin states number on the valve covers is torque not cu in ..
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Page 7 in this article (PDF) talks about the 361 FE and the fact that it wasn't only used in the small Edsels. Also somewhere else in this article it also indicates that the 361FE was the very first FE engine offered to the public when the Edsel's were launched in Sept of 1957. The 332 & 352 Fords came out a month later.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ork816aldcwtawx/FE%20comprehensive%20history.pdf?dl=0
(https://s16.postimg.org/5zccz60ol/361_FE.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/hogcn4rn5/)image free hosting (https://postimage.org/)
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I found some more 361 FE info in my files. This is actually where I read that it was the first FE engine to hit the market (not the PDF article).
(https://s1.postimg.org/z933wo73j/361_Edsel_Info.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/kpvyv9dyj/)image url upload (https://postimage.org/)
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I am reviewing a book in the process of being written by a well known automotive writer. He has asked me to review parts of the book for accuracy. One of the questions that has come up is regarding all the displacements available from the FE and FT engine during its production run. The author says the FE has been available in the following displacements:
332, 352, 360, 361, 390, 406, 410, 427, and 428
I was going to correct him on the 361, which I thought was only a truck engine, but then online I found a reference to the 361 being put into an early Edsel. Anybody know if this is correct?
For the FT engine he is saying that over the years, displacements have been available as follows:
330, 359, 360, 389, and 391
I have never heard of a 359 or 360 FT, I thought that the 361 was the only one available. I also thought that the 330" version was actually referred to as the 331. And I have never heard of a 389 FT. Can anyone with solid knowledge of this clarify the displacement list?
By the way, I am classifying the FT engines as the ones with the larger crank snout and the larger distributor hole in the block. The FE engines would not have these features. Thanks in advance for any help on this - Jay
There was no 360 FT that must be a mistake/typo.
The 359 and 389 were indeed FT engines in the late '70's and IIRC each one was used for only one model year. They are special configurations that Ford created in order to win big fleet contracts (U-Haul, etc.). The 359 is the same bore/stroke as the 360 & 361 and the 389 is the same bore/stroke as the 390 & 391. Ford just gave them a one CI lower size designation to differentiate them from the other engines.
In addition to the 330MD and 330HD mentioned above the 330 FT was also available in the "330XD" configuration for the 1979 U-Haul trucks. It is widely published that the '78 model year was the last year for FT production but the U-Haul 330 XD's were produced well into 1979.
FT blocks are also different from FE blocks in that they all have an NPT hole in the passenger side skirt just above the pan rail near the #2 main. It was used as an oil return port from the air compressor on the bigger trucks equipped with air brakes. Pic attached.
I'll see if I can dig up some more documentation to add to what Kevin already provided on these oddball FT engines.
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I had the 361 MEL on my mind.....I was looking at a crankshaft sitting in my back room for a 361 that was definitely not an FE, lol. I'd guarantee Royce's knowledge of the 58-60 Ford shenanigans is more accurate than mine when it comes to MELs and anything else they borrowed from the FE line. I stand (sit actually) corrected!
With that said, the 361 in that era was not the same as the 361 FT. So, I guess Ford made three different "361" engines....
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There was no 360 FT that must be a mistake/typo.
"The 360 cubic inch FE was only used in pickups and other light-duty trucks. There was also an FT version for medium-heavy duty use."
http://www.curbsideclassic.com/automotive-histories/automotive-history-the-ford-fe-series-v8/
Here is a picture of a non-existent 360 FT in my Dad's old N500. It has the 360 sticker on the air cleaner. Perhaps it's a different series engine altogether?
(https://scontent-vie1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16195619_10210714700898113_3195550429117154474_n.jpg?oh=c1bc5744106799b6f9fa97ea01204ec1&oe=5961E8BA)
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Actually, further research reveals this could be a "Super Duty" and someone just replaced the air cleaner lid with an FE one that happened to fit. Am curious, though, about the existence of of the 360 FT.
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UHaul 330MD small snout (352/360) crank. Here is a picture of such a timing cover that is for HD cooling systems but can be used on either large or small snout crankshafts. It only depends which seal you use. Large crank seal drives in from the back and small crank seal drives in from the front. I pulled this from a mixed matched 71 360 pickup long block in my running 1948 Metropolitan bus-motor home conversion.
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/FE%20Parts/KIMG0450.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/FE%20Parts/KIMG0450.jpg.html)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/FE%20Parts/KIMG0449.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/FE%20Parts/KIMG0449.jpg.html)
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/FE%20Parts/KIMG0437.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/FE%20Parts/KIMG0437.jpg.html)
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Here is a 1959 Edsel 361 FE. Like the MEL valve cover ratings the 361 E400 rating was only used in 1958.
(http://i1237.photobucket.com/albums/ff469/white65ford/1959%20Edsel%20Corsair/KIMG0749.jpg) (http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/white65ford/media/1959%20Edsel%20Corsair/KIMG0749.jpg.html)
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According to the article 361 FE was also an early option in Ford Police cars.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1458241169/last-1458340863/View+Thread
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What's funny is Jay was merely trying to help out the author and it seems we've all uncovered wildly contradictory information. No wonder when car guy books get published readers point out tons of errors....and some aren't errors but no one can prove it.
Yikes!
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Chris, that front cover is almost an exact match for a Lincoln Y block, which would be a 332 in trucks. 330 MD had the water pump integral with the cover??
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Chris, that front cover is almost an exact match for a Lincoln Y block, which would be a 332 in trucks. 330 MD had the water pump integral with the cover??
You know more than I do, I have only seen one 332 Y yeas ago. This aftermarket water pump has no Ford markings and looks just like I remember the 391 dump trucks. Do you think Ford carried over that same waterpump from the Lincoln Y block days till the end of the UHaul FT?
Cover is packed away and the date code is too fuzzy blown up on my phone. Can you read the date code?
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Chris, that front cover is almost an exact match for a Lincoln Y block, which would be a 332 in trucks. 330 MD had the water pump integral with the cover??
Contact Sam M. or maybe he will post here. He is the one that told me where this likely came from. Due to being half hidden I bet more people have seen this cover but didn't know it.
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The fact that the casting number is C4 and 332s were last used in 63 makes me think it is not the Lincoln.. but the cover sure looks like a Lincoln. I have never been around the FT series much at all so I hesitate to make any pronouncements.
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I have two or three of those FT setups with the iron crank/small snout. The two I took apart were 330MD, and had small snout iron cranks. I think that was where they were used like that. Never saw a 361/391 with an iron crank. There were three cooling setups in heavy trucks. The "normal" FE type timng cover with a big seal hole, the one in Chris' pics, and the heavy duty cooling with the big seal hole for the steel cranks. I used to sell parts to CSX and Norfolk Southern for all three ideas. Some HD stuff even had dual thermostats just in case one failed..... they had a big square cast box that held the two thermostats. Okay, I'm off track now, but they really made some SUPER DUTY FT stuff way before Ford recoined the logo in the late 90's.
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The fact that the casting number is C4 and 332s were last used in 63 makes me think it is not the Lincoln.. but the cover sure looks like a Lincoln. I have never been around the FT series much at all so I hesitate to make any pronouncements.
My post are relatively short but the explanation is there above the pictures. I posted from a cell phone, is the font very small compared to a post done by computer? It all looks the same size on my Samsung but if it is too small I will see if I can change it.
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The fact that the casting number is C4 and 332s were last used in 63 makes me think it is not the Lincoln.. but the cover sure looks like a Lincoln. I have never been around the FT series much at all so I hesitate to make any pronouncements.
My post are relatively short but the explanation is there above the pictures. I posted from a cell phone, is the font very small compared to a post done by computer? It all looks the same size on my Samsung but if it is too small I will see if I can change it.
?
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Chris, that front cover is almost an exact match for a Lincoln Y block, which would be a 332 in trucks. 330 MD had the water pump integral with the cover??
Not even close to an exact match but they are of a similar design with the integral water pump housing. Here is a pic of the Lincoln Y-block front timing cover. Yes the 330 MD came with the FT specific C4TE cover that Chris posted a pic of above. I always thought that there were big snout and small snout versions of this FT front timing cover but from what Chris is saying Ford designed it to accommodate the 2 different diameter seals from the start. Very interesting thanks Chris!
(https://s14.postimg.org/6n9b68gfl/Y-block_timing_cover.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/cbflx4krx/)temp image upload (https://postimage.org/)
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I think that is a Ford Y block front cover. The Lincoln does not flare out at the bottom and is thinner It also does not have the the passage in the top of the water pump cavity. EBU should be for a 54 239 car engine, probably pickups too
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This is the Lincoln cover.
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How does the font above my pictures compare on a regular computer screen?
Is the font smaller, bigger or the same as those of you using a computer keyboard?
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Chris, your font is the same as the other posts
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Chris, your font is the same as the other posts
Thanks. Some picture post font come out microscopic using chrome and explorer on a smart phone.
WSU0702: As for the timing cover I posted it is the only one I have so I don't know if all of the latter HD covers had provisions for both seals or not. When rhis cover was on the 360 FE the belts were just shy of bottoming out on the waterpump pulley and didn't seem to be slipping.
The large hole regular cooling system Blair mentioned is interesting. I wonder if those were highway drivin delivery trucks.