FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: turbohunter on February 17, 2017, 08:23:50 AM
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Since the major fab work is done in my mustang I'm able to get the engine going.
It's a C scratch 428, 4.180 bores, 4 inch stroke, BBM heads. I want to run it port injected but will prolly start it and dyno it on a carb.
Obviously a Victor with the injector bosses already in it is a choice. I was wondering if anyone had other ideas for a manifold. I'm remembering that Barry was playing with dual planes and injection for a bit. This is a three pedal street car.
I have an FE Power adapter to use if the 351c world has an interesting choice.
Thanks for input in advance.
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I did a 351c tunnel ram I converted for fuel injection, using a fepower adapter.
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/351%20C%20tunnel%20ram%20fuel%20injection/001_1.jpg)
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/falcon/007_9.jpg)
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Why not use a FiTech EFI with an Edelbrock RPM? Cheaper, easier to tune, just as much power...
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I did a 351c tunnel ram I converted for fuel injection, using a fepower adapter
I followed your build. Nice out of box thinking.
Don't think I could fit that under my hood but I like it.
Unclewill I'm not really into the Fitech or Holley or any carb style for this deal. However my daily driver 292 might get that treatment one day.
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Marc, I'd push toward a port injected FAST kit or a Megasquirt on a Victor EFI, but realize it needs porting to be real strong.
As far as the TB systems, I have installed a few, and although I initially was hot on the FITEch with laptop programming, after talking to them, it's really not as adjustable as you would think with the laptop. That doesn't make it bad, just after understanding what theya re doing with the laptop vs the contoller, the programming relies so much on learning, that it really doesn't want you inside it. However, a port injected engine, you can do some great things to balance drivability and power, so I am all for it if the budget allows.
Longer runners with a dual plane could potentially help, especially in a 440 inch motor, by matching the runner length to the rpm range a bit better, (Barry's testing) but I can tell you, you will have absolutely no unhappy moments with a ported Victor at part or wide-open throttle with good tuning. Have it rubbed on though, because they need it out of the box
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Im with you Ross on the Victor. And I'm keeping that as my default. It'll get plenty o' rubbin' if I indeed go that way, but I'm really curious about benefits from dual plane construction. I'd be happy to invest in a bit of welding magic to make it work.
Last summer Jay and I talked about the Megsquirt systems. I'll prolly head that way as our host is pretty darned good with them and may be able to keep me out of to much trouble.
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Megasquirt MS3-Pro on a Trick Flow EFI intake with the intake adapter. Nice long runners for torque and good flow potential. I have to talk Joe Craine into lending me his setup to test on my next dyno mule, which I hope to have on the pump by the end of the month...
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Megasquirt MS3-Pro on a Trick Flow EFI intake with the intake adapter. Nice long runners for torque and good flow potential. I have to talk Joe Craine into lending me his setup to test on my next dyno mule, which I hope to have on the pump by the end of the month...
I think if you have the room under the hood, that setup would be hard to beat for street/strip
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This guy the one you're talking about?
https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-51600113
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Just for grins, found this while researching from Wilson.
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/Mustang%20build%20pics/IMG_0204.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd447/turbohunter1/Mustang%20build%20pics/IMG_0205.jpg)
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This guy the one you're talking about?
https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-51600113
Nope, I was thinking more along the lines of one of these:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-516b0116/overview/make/ford
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-516b0118/overview/make/ford
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No problem, but I haven't ordered the fuel rails as yet. I have two sets of 42# injectors, but you will most likely need more injector for a big FE. I got swept up in EMC builds for folks, and haven't spent a lot of time for myself, lately. Just let me know if you do want to borrow those intakes. Joe-JDC
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Nope, I was thinking more along the lines of one of these:
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-516b0116/overview/make/ford
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-516b0118/overview/make/ford
Ohhhhh
Those babies are 12 inches tall. I'd love it but don't think they'll fit.
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Hmm, now you got me thinking. And that's usually trouble.
I do have two hoods.
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No problem, but I haven't ordered the fuel rails as yet. I have two sets of 42# injectors, but you will most likely need more injector for a big FE. I got swept up in EMC builds for folks, and haven't spent a lot of time for myself, lately. Just let me know if you do want to borrow those intakes. Joe-JDC
Joe, I'll get back to you on that in a week or so. I have some Ford 80# injectors that will work, and also some fuel rail stock that I can machine to fit - Jay
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Hmm, now you got me thinking. And that's usually trouble.
I do have two hoods.
Cut one LOL! When I get one of those mounted up on an engine I'll take some measurements for you.
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could always put a boss 429 type scoop on it ;D
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my tunnel ram'd efi doesn't stick out much over my hood so Im making a scoop
(http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff267/new_falcon_owner/falcon/009_10.jpg)
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I have one like the link Jay posted.....not complete yet, but Trick Flow has some different options for upper plenums, depending on your combo. I like the long runners, even length, nicer plenum than a "carb flange" manifold.....JMO.
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Have both tops available, and I have new fuel rails for 351W/5.0 HO, and I will check for fit Monday. I also have a NIB 75mm throttle body, but you may want something larger like the Lightning, or custom up to 110mm. I personally don't think that there is a whole lot to be gained with the larger throttle bodies until you start pressurizing the engine with lots of boost >14psi. The 75mm will let you start and calibrate quite well, and a vacuum gage will let you know if you need more Throttle Body just like a carb vacuum reading. Joe-JDC
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I am eagerly waiting for someone to test this combo too.
The long runner trick flow manifold is what I hope to run on my engine.
It's going into a 1971 F250, hope it clears the hood......
I can't imagine that it would hurt HP and tourque, for a reasonable street motor anyway.
According to accufab, a 75mm throttle body will flow 920cfm
And the 90mm will flow 1369cfm. That should be plenty for most mortals.
I also agree that going to big on a TB is generally a bad idea, at least for a street driven vehicle.
Kinda like cylinder heads, usually it's best to get the smallest one that will still flow the amount of air you need.
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But, on the other hand, Ford did some good Trans-Am work with a pair of 4500s on a Boss 302. Whooda thunk?
KS
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Well yea :o. If ya want all the hp you can get from a combo, go big or stay home!
I was thinking more on the lines of every day drivability, a big honkin 105mm TB on a shag nasty motor is going to be tricky trying put through the drive through. At 5-10% throttle, the big tb is going to let way more air into the motor than a 75mm to at the same throttle opening.
But if your goal is that last tenth, hog that 105 out and maybe use 2 of them....
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Back yonder I had one of the 'two-big-Holley' Boss 302 manifolds but traded it off in a complicated swap. I never drove a car with that particular combo. I don't know about low-speed drivability, but please note that Trans-Am was a road-racing series. And there is a small progressive cam arrangement that goes on a throttle shaft that's supposed to make small throttle openings more manageable.
KS
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Back yonder I had one of the 'two-big-Holley' Boss 302 manifolds but traded it off in a complicated swap. I never drove a car with that particular combo. I don't know about low-speed drivability, but please note that Trans-Am was a road-racing series. And there is a small progressive cam arrangement that goes on a throttle shaft that's supposed to make small throttle openings more manageable.
KS
I've been thinking about progressive linkages with dual quad setups lately too and came to the same conclusion that the dual quad has to be more drivable. Dual 500 cfm carbs vs my current 750 cfm, at low throttle settings I am only operating a set of 250 cfm butterflies vs. the 375 cfm butterflies on the single carb. Next step is to put it into practice and see how it works. ;)
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Here is my Victor with the FAST port injected system. Lots of wires, but a fun project
Starts right up after sitting for 2weeks and idles !
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For some reason, photos here recently have been 'gi-normous'???
KS
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The dual 4500s on the Boss 302 were an IR system. You cannot size an IR carb the same as a plenum deal since the cylinder only "sees" a single barrel.
And two 500 cfm carbs are only appropriate for lawn mower size engines. Edelbrock 500s are only useful as paperweights - and they probably suck at that too...
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I like your comments on the edels . what would be close on a stock '61 390 with a 270s cam , edel two four single plane , 4 speed 3:00 gear , mostly for highway driveing ?
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The Edelbrock 600s and 750s work just fine.
The darn 500 has the single worst booster design and calibration I have ever seen on a production carburetor intentionally sold to the public. It was dead pig rich at any point in the curve above idle, and if you physically jammed the fattest metering rods down into the smallest jet it would only go non-linear - lean at one end of the curve while remaining blubbering fat elsewhere. The most cost effective fix involves four fasteners and a garbage bag....
A close second would be the cheap Holley mechanical 450s with no secondary pump. Guys in Holley engineering referred to those as "flamethrowers" back when I was working there.... same kind of application, similar bad (but different) results.
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I agree, 2x 600 Edels would work nice, don't spend the cash on the 500s. I have had good luck with the 450 Holleys in the past, but it's been a long time and I have changed my tune over the last 20 years and now believe there isn't a reason to go that small
I have this discussion a lot on the internet, but remember, a small carb does not provide torque or low end like a small intake port.
A carb, only needs to have enough airflow to bring the boosters online neatly, and not too much speed in the venturi that fuel cannot be controlled at max RPM. I really like to think of the standard CFM calculation as a minimum requirement, not maximum on a common plenum intake.
It is true that intake ports and plenums can be too big and kill torque, but the carb is different, it is only trying to get airflow to pull and atomize the fuel through the main booster (and neatly travel through the other circuits). Venturi design (size and shape), booster design, float level, air cleaner, air bleeds and internal restrictions and bleeds all affect how it pulls the fuel through (actually, it gets pushed to the lower pressure side, but an engine sucking seems to make more sense for discussion)
Now, I will say if you do have a single plane intake, that is likely stealing some torque compared to a dual plane in your combo, as is the 3.00 gear, but less carb won't help that. Aside from going with a good dual plane, I'd make sure you have as quick of an advance curve as you can, and refrain from much carb spacer beyond what you need for heat control Also, if the car is a close ratio box, you'd likely LOVE a wide ratio with that setup
FWIW, I run a 1000 cfm HP series on my 4x4 F100 445 truck, and it has 3.50 gears and 32 inch tall tires. Summit has a calculator, says 632 cfm street, 800 cfm race. IMO, whoever follows those, if they are correctly calculating, now knows the expected minimum they need to fill the cylinders in that environment, and that is all. Additionally, we all know 427 Fords ran pretty good, and the same calculator at 7000 rpm says 735 street, 950 cfm race, not the 2x 600 or 2x 715 that we all have grown to love. Again, I'd call that 950 minimum, not maximum.
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thanks guys , I need to do some parts changing . I have 2.78 first gear trans , I am thinking going to 3.50 rear gear and two 600s , does any one make an adapter to put holleys on the eldel. two four intake ?
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A set of Jenvey throttle bodies on a Weber 8V intake...just sayin
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teach me
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