FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: unclewill on February 09, 2017, 10:20:56 PM
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Ok, I fired up my 482 with all aluminum top end, hydraulic cam and boy is it noisy underhood! Has anyone else noticed much higher mechanical noise levels with aluminum heads (over cast iron) or should I be concerned? Other than a slight wiggle on the vacuum gauge, all seems good so far. And it pulls 15 lbs of vacuum at idle too!
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Concerning any aluminum engine it does to me. Even injector noise will radiate through the aluminum intake.
I have never been around an aluminum head FE that had quiet exhaust or hydraulic lifters, but I suspect they are no different than any other engine.
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Huh, I never noticed. That is interesting
Of course I work on 2stroke diesels in a metal box for a living, so my decibel acceptance level is off the charts......
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Some hydraulic roller cams are noisy. If you have lash in the valvetrain, you will hear noise. But one head/block material will not be noisier than another.
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My cam is hydraulic flat tappet. The sound is a loud mechanical whirring, probably the valvetrain. It's not a bad sound, just much louder than the old engine. I figured you guys who run these on dynos all the time may have noticed a difference if there is one.
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Any interference going on?...push rod to intake, push rod to rocker, etc ? They can run right, have nice vacuum, and still be beating themselves to death.
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take the belts off and see if the noise goes away , in case it's a alternator or water pump
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According the website below, the damping of cast iron may be between 10 to 100 more than aluminum (dont know where an engine block fits into that scale. I do know motorcycles use rubber and other trucks to quiet mechanical noise of an engine:
http://www.atlasfdry.com/grayiron-damping.htm
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I'm with the guys above who think it's something different mechanically in the engine. Iron actually transmits sound really well, and when it's the size of an engine block, will be particularly good at the frequencies humans can hear.
Aluminum is less stiff, so it will respond better to lower frequencies than iron. This means an aluminum thing the size of an engine block will make a "duller" sound with more lower frequency energy.
Think about it. There are tons of big cast iron bells the size of engines out there. When's the last time you saw a bell that size in aluminum? A big aluminum bell would make a duller sound, where the iron has that richer "ring" full of high frequency sound.
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I'm going to pop a valve cover and have a look see. I like the belt removal idea too. The oil is clear and clean after 20 min break in and about 10 miles of driving. Cast iron manifolds are much quieter than headers so that's what got me thinking...
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The engine just hasn't been running right, vacuum fluctuates regularly at idle, pulled plugs, mixture looks right on, compression test showed low pressure on #3, pulled valve cover and pondering a perfect valvetrain then noticed the bottoms of the rockers are making contact with the outer valvespring retainer ring! Pulled factory adjustable rockers, "detailed" the bottoms of the rockers - basically removed excess casting flash, reinstall. Restarted the engine, seems quieter...will do the other side tomorrow.
Anyone have this problem before?
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Yes and no (as far as having that problem)
Just about all factory adjustables that have made it into my ownership have had witness marks from the retainer, so as a habit I spend a few hours with a sandroll and a carbide bit and clean up all the casting flash.
The seam under the rocker and the oiling hole for the pushrod cup get the most attention.
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I just hope it didn't kill my cam and lifters.
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After cleaning up the rocker arms, how was the vacuum, steadier?
As long as the lash hasn't changed, I don't see how the cam and lifters would be ruined.
If any damage would be done, I'd think the valve guides would have taken the brunt of it due to the valve spring being pushed over before the valve was pressed straight down. *shrugs* Dunno tho.
I'd think the fluctuating vacuum would have been caused by the valves not fully seating perfectly every time.
and not to be telling you something that you do not currently know..... but proper engine assembly is putting everything together, checking everything, turning the engine, checking for interactions between parts, adjusting as needed, rechecking, measuring, putting it all back together, rechecking because you weren't 100% sure, taking it all apart, etc. This is all the more critical when dealing with a host of parts from a handful of different suppliers. It took me probably an entire day to get my factoryish rocker set up to where I was happy they would do the job well.
Anyway, good luck, hope this is the last of your issues.
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Thanks, Drew. Yes the vacuum was steadier, but not yet perfect. Today I'll do the drivers side to fully correct the issue - it's harder because the brake booster and M/C have to come out first. I agree that the cam and lifters are probably OK, but I need to worry about at least one thing at all times. Also, the lash should be very close so I'm not making any adjustments. I also agree taht the valves just weren't seating consistently giving me wacky cylinder pressures and the engine just "fell apart" above 3500 rpm. Only about 70 miles on the car + break in time so hopefully no harm done.
Anyone using factory adjustable rockers needs to be aware of this clearance issue and be sure to correct it. The loud clicking I heard could easily be misconstrued as "normal" solid lifter noise - I was puzzled because I'm running a hydraulic cam. Other symptoms pointed to lean main jets or a vacuum leak: small backfires with revs, soft power at mid-high rpm, inconsistent idle. This is a red herring! If rockers with witness marks are common, than lots of people are running around with this problem.
It was the rhythmic vacuum fluctuation that clued me in to an issue with the valvetrain and a slight polishing of the outside of the valve spring retainer rings was evident upon VERY close inspection. Thankfully a simple fix with a die grinder and cutting wheel. More to come...
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I guess you should be happy a valve lock didn't pop out. I dunno if they hit the edge that hard.
For picture reference, typical double springs vs beehives:
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/445/IMG_1445_zpsdfod42i6.jpg)
(http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i6/DeepRootsNursery/445/IMG_1833_zps1vdf2ixl.jpg)
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Mine looks just like the first photo. Something is still not right, even after clearancing. Quieter for sure but still noisey. Several lifters were soft when I pulled the rockers, but I tried running it anyway. Small coughs and spitting at heavy throttle, 3000+ rpm. Idle just not right, almost like a miss, vacuum fluctuates in rhythm by 1-2psi. I'll try running it sans valve cover to see what's happening. Seems like some valve(s) somewhere are having problems?
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Geez would the *experts* show up already.... I hate for you to be taking info from someone like me.... here goes tho.
Order of operations for me if I was you:
-run engine and either use IR gun (or at the track we use a bottle of water to drip on each header tube to see if a cylinder is dead or weak). Don't expect exact temps between cylinders, that only really happens with diesels, you are just making sure it's hot.
-put air to each cylinder to make sure there is no major valve leakage
-check each plug wire. checking plugs may help you find which cylinders are being problematic. Recheck timing, make sure nothing has changed
-prelube and while doing that, check on those soft lifters
-make sure all the pushrods are straight and none are bent a lil, also make 100% certain nothing else is touching what it ought not touch.
You speak of vacuum. What size cam are we talking about here in this 482? What kinda vacuum readings are you getting? Have you tried capping every vacuum line and rechecking the numbers?
For an engine like this to not want to run easily at 3000rpms, there is something pretty wrong. Hope it shows it's head.
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Thanks Drew,
The way I figure it, the only adjustment I have left is valve lash/lifter preload, so I will reset that next. I am meticulous when setting up valvetrains so this whole thing is making me nuts, and I hesitate to make wholesale or multiple changes all at once. Compression tests were OK, plugs looked like everyone is burning OK, timing is good, plug wires good. I'll certainly check EGTs, good idea, and comp test again. I'm also going to recheck cam timing on the chance the chain is off a tooth. I can't imagine a brand new set of lifters would be toast after less than 3 hours run time unless there is a serious oiling issue. Oil pressure in this engine is high - 60-90psi @ 3000rpm. I attribute that to the Precision oil pump, but maybe there is a blockage? All rocker pedestals use standard Grade 8 bolts - none are "slimmed down" style - could this be a problem?
BTW, I was rereading Barry Rs book and he clearly calls out potential interference issues, including the spring/rockers issue I experienced, as things to double check when assembling the engine. My bad for not paying close enough attention!
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I have a HV pump from Doug.
Cold start is indeed 80-90psi, 100psi with some rpms. Mine drops to 25-30psi hot idle. Mine isn't shimmed for high pressure, it's just how I wanted it. Even hot the pressure rises quickly with some rpms.
So that seems normal.
Since you mention the grade 8's, I'd run the engine with cut up valve covers and see what that looks like. Or pull a valve cover and prelube, it won't take long to see a good bit of oil oozing from the rocker arms/shafts. It won't take long to overflow since the oil is so cold it drains back slowly.
I have no experience using standard bolts, I use either the stock bolts or studs that are specific for FE rockers, but that seems a good place to look. Should be pretty obvious if there is an issue.
Have you cut open an oil filter yet?
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Drew, I think you are giving the same advice that I would. For what it's worth, I had an FE on my dyno a couple months ago that toasted 3 lifters in about half an hour of running. Too much spring pressure for break-in, or not enough break-in lube, wrong oil, who knows? Wasn't my engine, so I'm not sure what the problem was. With flat tappet lifters sometimes this happens. You could go as far as checking the lift on each valve with a dial indicator setup, to see if any of them are showing lower than expected lift. If they are, either the lifter is not filling with oil, or the cam lobe is wearing away...
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Thanks for the advice, I'll try everything you suggest this time - I really don't want to take this apart again! I also don't want to drain the coolant if I can avoid it.
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It's the lifters. Ran it today without valve covers and at idle four of the pushrods can be pushed down by hand - #1 and #2 cylinder. I didn't even bother checking the other side since the intake is coming off anyway. But why? Could it have been from wonky geometry from the rocker interference? Is it something else? Pray for my cam.
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No oil to the lifters, maybe? Sometimes people will run solids and block off the oil passages to the lifter bores...
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Ossly, #3 and 4 cylinders are pumped up, I will check the passages though. Where would the plug be?
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On my 351c build last year 10 out of the 16 lifters would not stay pumped up. Switched over to morel no more problems.
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No one here can really answer as to why other than 'parts failure'
What I would do.
-remove intake
-reinstall rockers and pushrods
-take off rockers, and switch lifters around, reinstall rockers/pushrods, see if the problem follows the lifters or if it is the hole (just prelube, no need for the intake or running the engine). I can't imagine it being anything other than failed lifters.... but you never know till you prove everything else impossible.
Obviously you can do whatcha want, but if I was changing 2 or 3 lifters, I think my faith would be shaken in that particular brand/type of lifter and I'd be wanting to swap the whole lot of them.
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It is a Comp Cams 292h kit with lifters, valvesprings, cam, etc. I'm planning to open her up and pull/inspect the lifters, verify cam lift, check all oil passages (the rockers were getting oil when I ran it), replace all lifters and the cam if necessary. At least I don't have to pull the heads.
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Ossly, #3 and 4 cylinders are pumped up, I will check the passages though. Where would the plug be?
pipe plug
In the engine valley, towards the back, is a raised area of the block casting with two plugs in it. If they are screw in plugs, you can unscrew them and look down the hole. If there is a second plug towards the bottom of the hole, it is there to block oil to the lifters. Usually it is a 1/8" pipe plug, but could be just a drop-in plug or bar. Just pull the plugs out and oil to the lifter passages is restored.
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Thank you Jay!
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You may well find pressed-in cup plugs on the second level down, as well. Use a punch to make a hole in the middle, screw in a wood screw and pull the whole works out.
KS
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If it's oiling all the lifters except the front 2, I can't imagine the lifter galleys are blocked...
Have had more trouble than I would like in the past 3-4 months with various hydraulic lifters not pumping up. Just went through this last week with a hydraulic roller build. One lifter would only spring up with pressure and even then I could push it down with my finger while priming the pump...
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I use self drillning sheatmetal screws
and a clawhammer to pull them out
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I'm considering replacing the cam and lifters wholesale with a solid lifter unit. If the intake is coming off it's not that big of a leap to just swap the whole enchilada since my confidence level is low in the Comp products, and if I'm draining the cooling system I may just take the plunge on an aluminum radiator with dual fans. Two things first though, it is my understanding that the "dumbbell lifters" will require no block mods whether its set up for solid or hydraulic right? Also, here are the cam specs from Schneider - any thoughts? I like the idea of 7000rpm redline and my valve springs will supposedly handle it:
Intake Duration (gross): 290
Exhaust Duration (gross): 290
Intake Duration (.050”): 258
Exhaust Duration (.050”): 258
Intake Valve Lift*: .595"
Exhaust Valve Lift*: .595"
Lobe Separation: 110
Intake Valve Lash: .016"
Exhaust Valve Lash: .016"
RPM Range:
3000-7000
*Based on 1.75 Rocker Arm Ratio
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It won't pull to 7000.
Camshaft specs are universal. The description doesn't know if it's a 352 or a 511, if you have factory C8AE-H's or new BBM's, etc.
That's not a big solid flat tappet for a 482.
I'd snake those bad lifters out through the intake manifold, put new ones in, and roll with it.
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I figured I'd shut it down in the 6000-6200 rpm range, it's just nice to know I won't be floating valves. Snake the lifters out? Are you serious? I'll try it...
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Yep, get you some good telescopic magnets and pull the lifters out of the bores. On most intakes, there's a couple of spots where you can fit a flat tappet lifter through without pulling the intake. ;)
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Get a magnet on a stick and a flashlight, you'll get it. It is normally at this point where you wonder if you really needed to use that valley pan on this engine build.
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Grrrr...that tray! It still doesn't answer the question "Why?" I also won't be able to check the galleries. Could be an $85 mistake. I haven't ordered lifters yet 'cause this house ain't gonna paint itself. I'll get back on it soon...
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"Why" has now been answered. Hydraulic lifter oil gallery was plugged by previous engine builder to facilitate solid lifters. Kinda what I expected to find. It IS possible to remove lifters with a magnet while the intake is in place - but getting new ones back in is futile. Such a big time sink you might as well just take the intake off to begin with. Four forward lifters on each side are soft, rear eight are OK because they seem to get adequate drain back oil from the top to pump them up.
I am at a loss right now though...whoever plugged the galleries torqued one of the screw in plugs so tight against the press in plug that it stripped the hex. I've drilled it out but the loctite prevents me from removing the threads and fully extract the remains of the press in plug. A mess. Also, in the other side, I drilled through some kind of plug, then turned over the oil pump to verify a clear passage when something SHOT OUT of the oil gallery into the lifter bore then dropped down somewhere into the engine. Unfishable with a magnet, I now have a "floater" somewhere in the engine. I don't even know what it is or how many.
At this point I am weighing my options.
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Valvetrain is totally set up now, lash is perfect. Galleries are open and plug has been replaced. This thing is ready to go back together the only thing left is the piece of plug or whatever that I hope is in my oil pan - how bad is windage in these engines? I'm hoping it will work its way down to a large magnet stuck to the pan without causing problems. It was the rearmost lifter bore on the pass. side where it fell...
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Some magnets on a stick can fit in the oil drain plug hole.
As far as what to do next.... well that depends on what you can live with.
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What a miserable week!
Ok, I started the engine with the eight new lifters installed and within 2 minutes clack clack clack! Pulled the passenger valve cover and one more collapsed lifter was found - fifth one back! Grrrr...90 minutes of fishing with the magnets gets the old one out and new one in, thankfully I bought a couple of extras. Startup, sounds OK but the oil is so wasted now with possible contamination from multiple sources including metal shavings from drilling, coolant drip from disassembly, etc., that it and filter must be replaced before further break in. I'm running a HUGE magnet on the pan to pull any metal to the bottom and eventually the drain plug. Going back to the big city for a few days to get parts, then I'll try again.
Lessons learned:
Verify oil flow through all galleries prior to assembly. Do not assume a hydraulic lifter block is still set up for hydraulic lifters!
Check all valvetrain clearances carefully and mock up without the intake in place prior to assembly. Even factory parts will make contact with valvesprings!
Save the heartache, pain and money by building an LS motor instead - haha just kidding (maybe not). All of this is my own fault BTW - hubris.
More to come next week.
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Keep after it, it will be worth it when you get it all squared away!
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Well, it's done now! 16 lifters, two oil passages and a few helicoils later, I broke the 482 in today. Hopefully over the hump now, with many lessons learned! Thanks for the help, guys!
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Everyone is still learning....
I just tend to learn on much less exciting engines than a 482!
Happy you got on top of it.
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Holy guacamole! :o
I have never driven a car that moves like this one! Tires are struggling to put the power down in FOURTH GEAR! I haven't even run it past 4500 rpm yet, nor have I "punched it." Just roll ons to 7/8 throttle and short shift.
The EFI is simply amazing, the 482 has unreal amounts of torque, anyone debating a stroker crank vs. stock just do it!
All the lifter troubleshooting was totally worth it. I'm speechless...
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>Verify oil flow through all galleries prior to assembly. Do not assume a hydraulic lifter block is still set up for hydraulic lifters!
Always. Had to mod the solid rollers I used in the dragster 351C, no oiling to the top end. Always check. And these days, I run rollers or wait until I can afford a roller, done with the flat tappet stuff.
Sounds like you're having fun now thats for sure!
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This is probably something you're very well aware of, and so it doesn't need saying, but very overpowered cars are quite prone to oversteer and consequently backing into something at speed. I well remember the 'heart-in-mouth of a partial spin many years ago, and the helpless feeling of having lost control. In short order it'll be old hat to you, but while getting used to things...
KS
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I would call it "hilariously overpowered" ;D
Before I get on it, I always make sure I'm pointed in a straight line. Out here it's all about passing power on two lanes anyway. I'm breaking in slowly just like the engine. The sound it makes is intoxicating!