FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Toppa on October 17, 2016, 06:39:46 AM
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Hey folks,
simple questionS: which oil do you use in your old 390?
anybody has some documentation or manuals ?
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I use brad penn 20-50, but you won't go wrong with rotella 15-40 triple t or valvoline vr1. Google high zinc oil and you'll find all the info you need.
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I have to say that Brad Penn or Valvoline Vr1 are your best bet. The diesel oils like Shell and all have very little zinc in them now because of emissions and the particulate filters on the new diesels. The zinc fouls the particulate (DPF) filter.
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Kats427, we took in a sample of rotella to our caterpillar sealer two years ago for testing an it came back right at 1200 ppm zinc content. Have they recently changed it?
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My old stock 352 I ran std Valvoline in it, not VR1. With the weak stock springs I never saw an issue. Now the hot rods all get VR1 20w50.
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I have to say that I was told that they would start reducing the zinc in diesel oil starting late 2014 -early 2015. The new emission laws were the reason for the change. I worked about 4 years on life testing diesel particulate filters. High zinc levels contaminated the filters. I remember that levels were to be reduced to somewhere around 700ppm for ZDDP. I had a talk several years ago with an engineer from Cummins (actually my supervisor at the time) and found that the reduced levels did help to extend life of the filters. At the time we were interested in particulate filter life and not really worried about engine life. But I do remember that we started to see some high pressure Bosch pump failures we had not seen before. There was concern that it may have been the result of the lower ZDDP levels.
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Well for what it's worth I just talked to our oil rep. I knew that the new oils were to be introduced but the rep tells me that they are not an "across the board" spec as in the past. There is to be a CK-4 which will be backward compatible with the current CJ-4 spec. The caveat is that zinc ZDDP has been reduced. The rep told me that there is another spec API FA-4. This oil is for the newest engines and less zinc. Also the current Shell Rotella has had the ZDDP reduced to about 1000 ppm. But as the existing stocks are depleted one best read the spec on the container. An interesting side note ..this rep told me he has been advised that NONE of these new oils are recommended for use in flat tappet engines by the manufacturers . So some research and careful selection are required.
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Damn looks like I 'm writing a book. I want to add that oil companies have service reps that completely freak out when one mentions "additives" and the adding of them to their formulations. I remember testing some stuff at different times but today you are admonished to not add anything. Oil formulations and the additive packages used are a very careful and tested package and I personally do not use any added supplement.
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I use Amsoil myself in my old 390 in the Boat. Works extremely well. Be a little careful with these newer diesel oils.... They have cut the Ash in them. The Ash adds protection and help from build up acid levels in the oil. Yes it has Zinc but that's not the only protection you need!
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Well for what it's worth I just talked to our oil rep. I knew that the new oils were to be introduced but the rep tells me that they are not an "across the board" spec as in the past. There is to be a CK-4 which will be backward compatible with the current CJ-4 spec. The caveat is that zinc ZDDP has been reduced. The rep told me that there is another spec API FA-4. This oil is for the newest engines and less zinc. Also the current Shell Rotella has had the ZDDP reduced to about 1000 ppm. But as the existing stocks are depleted one best read the spec on the container. An interesting side note ..this rep told me he has been advised that NONE of these new oils are recommended for use in flat tappet engines by the manufacturers . So some research and careful selection are required.
Shell still has 1300ppm of ZDDP BUT they cut the Ash content in the oil. Read my above statement.
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uh, lots of information. ;D
so everyone is talking about zinc, what do I need it for? Which engine part will be protected by?
- in another post you find my oilpressure/valvetrain noise problem. could these issues be caused by riding standard 10w40 synt. oil? I guess this is in the engine at the moment...
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Flat tappet lifters and gears on the cam and distributor are protected by the ZDDP additive. Lots of cam and lifter failures have been attributed to the lack of ZDDP in modern oils. If your noise ends up being a worn cam lobe and lifter, the oil could potentially be the reason. My preference on oil is Valvoline VR-1.
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Because of the new additive packages alot changes. I agree with what Wes said that there is more to it than ZDDP. From a couple of engineers (tribologist's)I have talked to in the last day the problem that is being seen now is that some of the new additives do not allow the ZDDP to adhere to the surface of the metal. Some of the new additives have a greater affinity for the metal surface than ZDDP and actually displace the ZDDP in practice. Of course not many engines today have flat tappet camshafts so this is not such a problem. But engine makers and oil companies are still in the testing of the new oils for older engines like we are talking about and the results so far have raised concerns for older "flat tappet engines".
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Here in Colorado there is an old drag racing team by the name of Kenz & Lesile. They held the land speed record in the mid fifties with a mil ti engine flat head powered streamliner. There mostly known for there cammer powered Cougar, car number 777. Ron Lesile still has about 5 or 6 cammers still in crates. When they retired from racing they started a distributor ship selling BG oil and fuel additives one that is fantastic for the older flat tappet engines is there BG MOA oil additive, I own an auto shop and put it in every oil change. It brings the lubricity up on any oil, including the synthetics. I have a 66 Mustang with a pretty healthy 351W with a solid cam and have had zero issues. Just my 2 cents. Clint
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It's a good idea to pay attention.... The API rating of oil. That Amsoil has the old oil ratings. Good thing for flat tappet Cams. So no need to add any kind of additives to the oil. Just like Joe Gibbs, VR1 and so on. JMHO
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Toppa,
I think it will depend mostly on what is available where you live. I'm not certain what is on the shelf in Germany.
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Valvoline VR-1 is available. Which viscosity do you recommend?
20W50?
there was still no time to check the engine :'( :'(
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I've been using either 10W-30 or 20W-50.
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My understanding that any brand of 20W50 oil will have adequate zinc and other components for a flat tappet engine. Reason being is that 20W50 is not a new(er) car oil - they all use much lower viscosity grades. If you want to run lower viscosity than 20W50, I agree the VR1 is the answer as it is readily available. I use the VR1 10W30.
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You might have something there, I was always running 20W-50 Castrol for years and have been fine even without the ZDDP additive that I just started using recently as a safety measure. I recently changed to 10W-40 and in short order it ate the cam. Never had an oil pressure problem the whole time 30PSI idle, 55PSI cruise (1800 RPM). New cam going in this coming weekend, I'll report on the carnage when I get the old one out.
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The four cam engine in my ECTA car might as well have flat tappets since it uses what are known as 'buckets', they fit over the valve/spring and are shaped on the top to hold shims used for setting the lash. The cams set directly above the line of buckets and the cam lobes act/impinge on the (hardened) shims. There is no rocker arm of any sort.
The factory oil is a 'semi'-synthetic which seems to mean that it is part synthetic and part dinosaur sourced. In any case, for the first 40K miles of driving, I got complimentary oil changes at the dealer. After that I did it myself and used Mobil 1 and a premium filter. The car is now 14 years old and has 160K+ miles on the clock. It doesn't use oil between changes.
The cams are cast iron. If there was any sort of surface failure in the cam/shim interface, I'm sure the first thing that'd happen would be the kicking out of the shims on top of the buckets. And the next thing would be the clatter of the fairly massive clearance between the cam lobe and the top of the bucket.
KS
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Yeah, my Kawasaki Z-1 has a shim on bucket setup like that. Pretty common in the motorcycle world.
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I ordered VR1 20w50... 10Liter 8) freakin expensive...
will see. Hope my Oilpressure will increase with the thicker oil...
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Toppa---
'Thicker' oil will probably increase your oil pressure but not necessarily improve your oiling. Mecca has available a monograph on the subject that may well be available on their website. Their thesis is that the higher pressure is due to the fact that 'thicker' oil has larger molecules. The higher pressure is from trying to force these larger molecules through the extremely small interstices in a running engine. Think of the molecules as if they were small ball bearings. Many smaller ball bearings will give better support than a few larger ones---and they'll flow easily through the narrow places that are part of what you have at the crank and rod bearing surfaces.
KS
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ok...
what about high volume oilpumps? In which case will it make sense? the price for me will be about 3 times higher...
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I have been using Kendall GT-1 High Performance with Liquid titanium (20w50)
The current MSDS sheet lists this as having 1200 ppm zinc. All other properties are listed as well.
The thing you need to do is check this about once every six months. The parameters do change and without notice to you the end user.
One list I would like to have is what needs to be in the oil for adequate protection for our flat tappet use.
Zinc%
Phosphorus%
Ash%
Other additives, such as titanium with this Kendall.
There is a LOT of misinformation floating around as well as "best oil" opinions based on what people feel rather than what any test has proven.
I have had good results with the Valvoline VR1 and Shell Rotella too.
I just happen to have a great supplier who keeps stock of the Kendall at a reasonable price so I buy a few cases when needed.
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"The thing you need to do is check this about once every six months."
Truer words were never spoken. I worked years ago with all the major oil companies (Amoco, Exxon, Mobil, all the PA based oil refiners like Penzoil, Quaker State, Wolf's Head, etc.) as we helped them market tank truck loads of oil. Also local re-refiners like Motor Oils Refinery where used oil was repurposed.
I learned that it's really most often the local or regional blender/distributor/reseller who decides what additive package goes into your bottle of motor oil. And they can and do often change the mix or percentage of ZDDP or any other compound at the drop of a hat. BE SURE that your purchased oil has a current tech sheet that matches the rating on the bottle's top and/or is current within the year of the tech sheet.
It would be really cool to develop say a ZDDP test strip that actually shows the percentage of said compound in a particular bottle. That ain't gonna happen though!
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bought the VR1, still waiting for my concrete to install my auto lift. then i will pull of the pan and have a look for the oilpump. dont want to buy new parts without an diagnosis...