FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => Non-FE Discussion Forum => Topic started by: cjshaker on July 06, 2016, 04:31:37 PM
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I'm finally getting around to installing the Hurst Roll Control on my Mustang and was wondering where you guys have placed yours at? Between the hood hinges, brake assembly and switch/pressure valve assembly, there's absolutely no room between the shock tower and firewall, at least that I can access with the engine in. I'm thinking about mounting it in front of the shock tower, but I don't ever recall seeing anyone mount theirs there. I thought about the wheel well area behind the diverter valve assy, but that seems like a bad idea, especially since I'll be using the car in Drag Week and it'll be exposed to water if it happens to rain. I'm curious where you guys put yours?
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I got rid of the distribution block since it uses several different fitting sizes that are uncommon. Stuck the proportioning valve and line lock near the MC.
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s156/oldafretired/IMG_3897_zpsht7dmih6.jpg)
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I am unable to picture how much room is available below the master cylinder and the steering shaft and z bar so this may not work... On my lightning to prevent drilling holes I made a plate and mounted it on the 2 studies that retain the master. Somewhat hidden and ticked out of the way. Mine hangs vertically but a plate could be made with a 90deg bend to mount horizontally.
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The Mustang bay is pretty tight with the clutch rods and bar. If I had the engine out I could probably fab something up, but that won't happen right now.
Thanks for that shot, Earl. I've considered getting rid of the stock stuff and doing like you have. The stock configuration is just way to complicated. I assume you have a pressure switch plumbed in for the brake lights? I may make a temporary bracket and mount it where the rev limiter was originally mounted, then convert it like yours this winter. I just kind of hate to run the brake lines up and over the shock tower.
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Many years ago, I mounted mine on the back side of the shock tower and plumbed it into the stock distribution block. Not that hard really until I decided to go racing and changed all the lines to stainless. Still have the stock block but ran front lines through the fender apron with the right side going into the car, under the dash and out the other side. The reason being is sometimes NHRA will get sticky about brake or fuel lines on the firewall unprotected. Certainly a lot easier with the engine out.
I tried to take a photo but it didn't turn out so you'll have to use your imagination or start using Nitro.
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Years ago, on my 70 428CJ 4 speed 70 Mach 1, I mounted a Hurst line lok under the inner fender apron, between the back of the shock tower and the firewall. To keep water, rocks etc from damaging the solenoid, I made up a metal box to cover the unit, in the 6 years i had that car, never had any issues with the Line Lok.
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This is where it landed on the Falcon, pretty sure it's in a similar spot on the Mustang - will look tonight.
(http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/images/brakes/falconprop.jpg)
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I mounted mine on the outside of the fender well.
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I put mine on the back side of the shock tower; took a right angle drill to drill the holes with the engine in the car and the hood off, but it worked.
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I haven't figured out how to post a full size picture here but if you click on these they should enlarge. May or may not be of any assistance .
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I haven't figured out how to post a full size picture here but if you click on these they should enlarge. May or may not be of any assistance .
Man, and I thought your garage was clean. LOL
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Thanks for the suggestions. I was going to mount it on an aluminum plate in front of the shock tower, using a couple of existing holes, (read: not wanting to have to take the hood off :(), but I think I'll go ahead and put it behind the shock tower. It looks much cleaner that way. Trying to get both hands down in there to run more lines ought to be fun ::)
Jay, did you retain the separate pressure differential valve that's used on the '69 system? Did you run into any pressure issues if you did? And Dale, I don't believe the '67 has that separate valve, does it?
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I bypassed the pressure differential valve on my setup, Doug, basically took the whole stock distribution block out and added the line lock to the front brakes and a proportioning valve to the rears.
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My car was a drum/drum so there was no separate PDV. When I put discs on the front last year I also installed an adjustable proportioning valve but put it on the fronts as opposed to the more common back circuit. My logic was the combination of front discs and skinny tires could cause a lockup condition. I ran the prop valve wide open with no issues so decided to remove it altogether. Works good at 130 MPH.
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Nice/out of box thinking ^^^^^^^
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I stuck mine in front of the shock tower. Just bent up some lines & ran them alongside the fender edge.
Might not be as pretty - but easier to do.(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e135/Barry_R/Mobile%20Uploads/20160708_1045421_zpsaootz8kc.jpg)
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That's how I was originally thinking about doing it, Barry. It looks like your Hurst unit doesn't have plugs in the unused holes? What gives with that?
I think I'll go ahead and remove the stock stuff and just route my own system in its place, just because I like to keep the engine bay tidy. Thanks for all the responses everyone.
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That's how I was originally thinking about doing it, Barry. It looks like your Hurst unit doesn't have plugs in the unused holes? What gives with that?
Stopping is over-rated.
Allen plugs....
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My logic was the combination of front discs and skinny tires could cause a lockup condition.
I have seen SO many videos of cars that get out of shape and can't be corrected for lack of grip from skinnies. Has anyone ever done A-B ET testing against a wider front tire. It seems to me the safety factor would override whatever less rolling resistance/weight gets you. I get this is crucial in a class car, but anything else?
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Hey it isn't just the rolling resistance. It's the weight. On my street car I have 15x5 Draglites and skinny M/T Sportsman front tires. I think they're quite a bit lighter than what a lot of these cars have on the street. I wonder how much a 235/60-15 tire and steel wheel combo weighs?
Just picked up a pair of 15x3 1/2 wheels and Hoosier race tires for track use which are 10 lbs lighter (tire and wheel only weighs 20 lbs) for a total loss of 20 lbs. You can move the 20 lbs to the back instead to help the car hook.
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s156/oldafretired/IMG_3911_zpsxkbrk4hy.jpg)
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Hey it isn't just the rolling resistance. It's the weight. On my street car I have 15x5 Draglites and skinny M/T Sportsman front tires. I think they're quite a bit lighter than what a lot of these cars have on the street. I wonder how much a 235/60-15 tire and steel wheel combo weighs?
Just picked up a pair of 15x3 1/2 wheels and Hoosier race tires for track use which are 10 lbs lighter (tire and wheel only weighs 20 lbs) for a total loss of 20 lbs. You can move the 20 lbs to the back instead to help the car hook.
I did mention weight in my post, but my question revolves around safety in, say, a bracket car where every little hundredth isn't as critical. Pop open a beer and...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=search_videos&search_query=dragstrip+crashes
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It also might have a lot to do with having the right look of a drag car. ;)
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It also might have a lot to do with having the right look of a drag car. ;)
Ahaaaaaaaaa!!! There it is. Looks over function. CRASH those puppies!
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I need to mount mine also (eventually) thanks for the ideas.
I always thought the proportioning valve needs to go to the rears to be able to reduce line pressure. If you lock the fronts a little the car usually pushes straight (too much smoke dumping the other guy will get you DQ, LOL) If you lock the rears it can swap ends pretty quickly (not good)
Afret what size are the Hoosier fronts? I was thinking of using a 26" tall tire, those look to be 28" maybe?
Here is a good read regarding braking and what was ultimately wrong with car : http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=53637&highlight=fletcher+locks+brakes
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Afret what size are the Hoosier fronts? I was thinking of using a 26" tall tire, those look to be 28" maybe?
These are 27". The stocker has 28" fronts and the street car has the 28" Sportsman tires but I think they might be a bit shorter than that with not much clearance. The new front skinny wheels have less backspacing so I decided to just get the 27" ones to be safe.
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Here is a good read regarding braking and what was ultimately wrong with car : http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=53637&highlight=fletcher+locks+brakes
I remember that when it first happened and just re-read the story and didn't see anything regarding the car being at fault. Maybe a defective front caliper but it appears to be mostly driver error by hitting the brakes too hard. That's gone on forever in the dial in classes and the reason NHRA has a rule against excessive braking which I'm sure you know.
The other difference is a lot of those cars are converted to disc/disc whereas a disc/drum setup gets the majority of it's braking from the front wheels. That's why I chose to limit the front pressure and not the back. Even the guys at Wilwood thought I had a logical plan when I called and asked. As it is now, the prop valve is gone and I don't miss it.
All I know is I'm comfortable with how my car stops and how I drive it. The odds of my rears locking up before the fronts is less than zero even with oversize brakes on the back.
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Somewhat related (if you squint real hard), does anybody know the current NHRA track rule about running poverty caps?
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I'm sure it hasn't changed and that means no hubcaps. The tech wants to see if you have all your nuts in place and they don't want to see errant hubcaps rolling down the track.
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I'm sure it hasn't changed and that means no hubcaps. The tech wants to see if you have all your nuts in place and they don't want to see errant hubcaps rolling down the track.
After trying to deal with a succession of dysfunctional females over the last few years, I can safely say that my nuts are not in place. They have, in fact, retreated upwards for their own safety.
I've been perusing some Pure Stock and F.A.S.T. videos, but they appear to be run at non-NHRA tracks. I have Centerlines on the Montego now, but I bought some new 15x6 and 15x8 steelies, and would prefer to run my Mercury poverties. Anyway, no skinnies for me. Redlines on black steel for the musclecar look.
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I have seen SO many videos of cars that get out of shape and can't be corrected for lack of grip from skinnies. Has anyone ever done A-B ET testing against a wider front tire. It seems to me the safety factor would override whatever less rolling resistance/weight gets you. I get this is crucial in a class car, but anything else?
I apologize in advance for pitching you an easy one, but I can go both ways on this ;D ;D On my Mach 1 I like to keep the stock look, and run Magnum 500s all the way around, with 15X7 fronts and 235/60-15 front tires. On my Shelby clone I run fairly skinny tires and wheels, 15X4 Centerlines with Mickey Thompson skinnys. I have noticed almost no difference in how the cars handle on the track, in terms of steering and recovery. The only time I've come close to hitting the wall was in my Mach 1, when I got out of the groove with my supercharged engine and wasn't able to get traction. I had been trying to stay in it to save the run (it was a licensing pass), which I learned that day was a mistake. Once you are out of the groove, get off the throttle immediately. My view is that most of those videos showing cars out of control come from people trying to stay on the throttle in that situation.
If you want to be stylin' going down the track, run whatever front tires and wheels you want. If you are trying to extract best ET and max MPH, the weight savings and improved weight transfer with the skinnys up front will pay significant dividends.
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I have seen a guy run hubcaps at an NHRA event, but they were retained by machine screws and it was a fairly slow car, about 13 sec. if I remember correctly. I wouldn't count on every tech inspector giving the Ok on that one though.
I just weighed my old 225-60/15 with Magnums against my ET Wheels and MT Sportsmans and got the same differences as Earl. 20lbs compared to 30lbs. I certainly noticed a difference in front end rise when I put on the ET's and Mickeys. I also took the car out after putting them on and did some hard stops in a big open lot and did not notice anything peculiar or sketchy when doing so vs. my old heavy BF Goodrich and Magnums.
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Another positive consideration for running skinny "Pizza Cutter" tires is that every track that I have been to in the past 20 years or so, requires the car to drive through the water box, rather than back in like we used to do years ago. A narrow front tire, with minimal tread, is much less likely to drag a lot of water from the burnout box, up to the starting line, directly in front of your slicks. Not ideal for traction. I liked it better when we would drive around the water box, and then back in, but it does take longer, and unless you have a crew member there to back you in straight, and avoid hitting somebody, or something, it can be tough if you are tightly belted in, and unable to see much.
As for the safety of skinny front tires, I have had the pleasure (?) of sliding around in my own oil at 130 MPH a couple of times, and frankly, I would be more concerned about the thin walled, low air pressure slicks out back, than a narrow front tire with 30 or 40 PSI when it comes to evasive manouvers. As for the front tires themselves, I have used Morosos, M/Ts, and currently have a pair of M&H fronts on my Fairmont. I have found that the M/T fronts tend to wear out much quicker, and hold air poorly, compared to the old style Moroso "Drag Specials". The Morosos were on the Fairmont for about 15 years, and never lost air, even after sitting all winter, while the Mustangs M/Ts needed air added every month or so. And the Morosos still have decent tread depth, where I have worn out 2 pairs of M/Ts in a shorter time period. I have only had the M&Hs on the car for 4 months, but they seem to hold air very well too.
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I apologize in advance for pitching you an easy one,
Apology not accepted. I am reporting you to the moderator for heaving something of indeterminate physical property in my direction, whilst beguiling me into warm and fuzzy by claiming it's "easy".
...but I can go both ways on this ;D ;D On my Mach 1 I like to keep the stock look, and run Magnum 500s all the way around, with 15X7 fronts and 235/60-15 front tires. On my Shelby clone I run fairly skinny tires and wheels, 15X4 Centerlines with Mickey Thompson skinnys. I have noticed almost no difference in how the cars handle on the track, in terms of steering and recovery. The only time I've come close to hitting the wall was in my Mach 1, when I got out of the groove with my supercharged engine and wasn't able to get traction. I had been trying to stay in it to save the run (it was a licensing pass), which I learned that day was a mistake. Once you are out of the groove, get off the throttle immediately. My view is that most of those videos showing cars out of control come from people trying to stay on the throttle in that situation.
Well, that's the point, isn't it? Physics demands that an increased contact patch will hold better in obtuse/askew directional input, and most racers encountering such a situation need all the help they can get. More to the point, learning not to overcorrect is paramount, but human nature in a stress spike will usually do that.
If you want to be stylin' going down the track,
The doctor who delivered me into this world told me I had no style. Or class. I believed him then, and I believe him now.
run whatever front tires and wheels you want. If you are trying to extract best ET and max MPH, the weight savings and improved weight transfer with the skinnys up front will pay significant dividends.
A quantified analysis of the ambiguous term "significant dividends" is what I was looking for when I strategically derailed this thread. 'member, y'all?
I was going to remark how much more impressive it is to pull a wheelie with big tires up front as opposed to skinnies, with your Mach in mind. However, I would have to report myself to the moderator for kissing the moderator's butt, a conundrum my therapist would have a field day with.
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I have seen a guy run hubcaps at an NHRA event, but they were retained by machine screws and it was a fairly slow car, about 13 sec. if I remember correctly. I wouldn't count on every tech inspector giving the Ok on that one though.
Local guy with a 12-second '72 LTD runs full wheel covers that are screwed to the steelies. Tech checks one wheel's lugs, gives the others a pass, he puts the one back on. His are rather easily retained around the edge; not sure how you could pull that off with small caps.
I just weighed my old 225-60/15 with Magnums against my ET Wheels and MT Sportsmans and got the same differences as Earl. 20lbs compared to 30lbs. I certainly noticed a difference in front end rise when I put on the ET's and Mickeys. I also took the car out after putting them on and did some hard stops in a big open lot and did not notice anything peculiar or sketchy when doing so vs. my old heavy BF Goodrich and Magnums.
Does your car wheelie? I ask because unsprung weight still in contact with the asphalt should not have an effect on front end lift until it just clears said asphalt. If you can feel an increase in forward acceleration just from the reduction of 20 pounds of total weight, then you have one finely tuned butt-o-meter. And I mean that in a manly way. Of course.
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Another positive consideration for running skinny "Pizza Cutter" tires is that every track that I have been to in the past 20 years or so, requires the car to drive through the water box, rather than back in like we used to do years ago. A narrow front tire, with minimal tread, is much less likely to drag a lot of water from the burnout box, up to the starting line, directly in front of your slicks. Not ideal for traction. I liked it better when we would drive around the water box, and then back in, but it does take longer, and unless you have a crew member there to back you in straight, and avoid hitting somebody, or something, it can be tough if you are tightly belted in, and unable to see much.
Good point. I don't recall what the local track's rule is about backing in. I have never done a burnout at a track, just have driven around and gone straight to the line on treaded regular street tires.
As for the safety of skinny front tires, I have had the pleasure (?) of sliding around in my own oil at 130 MPH a couple of times, and frankly, I would be more concerned about the thin walled, low air pressure slicks out back, than a narrow front tire with 30 or 40 PSI when it comes to evasive manouvers. As for the front tires themselves, I have used Morosos, M/Ts, and currently have a pair of M&H fronts on my Fairmont. I have found that the M/T fronts tend to wear out much quicker, and hold air poorly, compared to the old style Moroso "Drag Specials". The Morosos were on the Fairmont for about 15 years, and never lost air, even after sitting all winter, while the Mustangs M/Ts needed air added every month or so. And the Morosos still have decent tread depth, where I have worn out 2 pairs of M/Ts in a shorter time period. I have only had the M&Hs on the car for 4 months, but they seem to hold air very well too.
The Montego is heavier than your Fairmont or the Mustangs in this thread, though, and I have this mental picture of it plowing through skinnies. It currently has 225/70's non-drag up front on skinny polished Centerlines that are a tad narrow for that size, judging by the amount of sidewall bulge. Conversely, there are 275/60 non-drag in back on 10-inch wheels, which are perhaps too wide for that size. All four have very little tread wear. I could move them to the aforementioned 6 and 8 steelies, which I think would make a better fit.
We'll see. I am paranoid about racing a 1of20 car where the other 19 appear to be MIA. On the other hand, driving on the street is probably, statistically, riskier. Argh.
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Does your car wheelie? I ask because unsprung weight still in contact with the asphalt should not have an effect on front end lift until it just clears said asphalt. If you can feel an increase in forward acceleration just from the reduction of 20 pounds of total weight, then you have one finely tuned butt-o-meter. And I mean that in a manly way. Of course.
My butt-o-meter is HIGHLY refined, but I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here.
I guess I should have expanded on that comment a bit. I was having some serious traction issues initially, spinning right off the line. But I've made several changes since then, all leading to some good improvements. I recently put my old BF Goodrich tires back on to make sure they were still ok to use for the 900+ mile trek for Drag Week (they're 10 years old). After some test & tune runs and getting decent results, I put my ET Wheels back on and was told that my next pass netted about 3" of clearance between the pavement and tire. I couldn't tell but did notice that the front had risen higher than previously. Being in a hurry that day, I didn't even think about using my Go Pro to film the runs, so I can't verify what I was told, but I trust the person who told me. Instead of spinning right off the line, now I'm getting about 30' before breaking traction, so I've still got more work to do but think I'm heading in the right direction. It was actually stupid of me to run the BF/Magnum wheel combo at the track because it'll change with the 20lb difference changing wheels, but it was only for 2 runs.
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Doug, you may want to rethink 10 year old tires on drag week when it will still be pretty warm during the day and the car is hauling a lot of extra weight. Some manufactures say to replace them after 6-8 years. A tire coming apart could cause some damage to that shiny blue paint.
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John, I appreciate the concern, and I've re-thought it plenty of times...lol About all the extra weight will be in a trailer, but even that won't be a lot. The tires have always been kept in a cool environment and don't show any signs of cracking or checking. I've ran tires for lots of years before and other than with really cheap tires, I've only ran into issues when they've been exposed to elements year round. I'll only be using the rears and my ET Streets will serve as a backup if I need them. Plus I can't really afford to spend $300 on a set of tires that will only be used once :)
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Ok, sounds like you got it under control, just thought I'd throw it out there. ;D
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My butt-o-meter is HIGHLY refined, but I'm not sure we're talking about the same thing here.
...I guess I should have expanded on that comment a bit...
Gotcha.
The tires have always been kept in a cool environment and don't show any signs of cracking or checking. I've ran tires for lots of years before and other than with really cheap tires, I've only ran into issues when they've been exposed to elements year round.
Same situation here. The Montego has old date codes on the tires, but it was garaged in South Dakota, and it's been garaged here since I got it. No evidence of any issues at all, so I'll just run them.
HOWEVER, some of the tire shops around here are now refusing to touch tires past a certain age because of liability legalities, so now I'm shopping for my own tire machine and balancer. Not just for this car, of course. The amount of doinking around I do with tires and wheels is ridiculous, so it'll pay off in the long run. Last year I pulled 84 tires off wheels. Some were so old their date codes were in Roman numerals. All were so petrified that an archaeologist would run away screaming. Plenty had so little treadwear that I cried thinking about all that money flushed down the commode.
Have I mentioned lately that I'm an idjit?
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HAHA reminds me when im aired up the tires
on the Anglia when i was to unload it from the
trailer. The first tire i aired up started to make
a cracking sound so i stoped and went over to
the other side of the Anglia started to air that
tire when. RRRRRRIP the hole car jumped
when i looked around the rear corner of the car
it was like a cow udder stickin out from the tire ;D ;D
a couple of minutes there was a real loud bang
when the tube ruptured
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My logic was the combination of front discs and skinny tires could cause a lockup condition.
I have seen SO many videos of cars that get out of shape and can't be corrected for lack of grip from skinnies. Has anyone ever done A-B ET testing against a wider front tire. It seems to me the safety factor would override whatever less rolling resistance/weight gets you. I get this is crucial in a class car, but anything else?
90% of the cars that "get out of shape" and can't get back are due to the driver not having the brains to quit the run. Many of those should show a car out of the groove, then then trying to drive back in the groove and hammering it again. ET/Heads up/Index/whatever - you lose already, quit now. Test-N-Tune, you get no data - sorry. Oh no, I gotta get back in it in spite of the fact that the chassis is now completely out of sorts and adding power back in only makes it worse. Also, those big tires out back are more in control than the nose wheels. The one that has bite, or more rolling resistance, is going to turn you one way or the other if one wheel is out of the established racing groove. You're also assuming that the chassis on said car is set up right in the first place. That can be a rare thing, especially with the 405 wannabes spraying the crap out of the car. Some of those guy's version of chassis tuning is airing the tires.
The advantage of front drag "skinnies" are many - several diameters are available to fit your car to use for car (and driver) reaction time tuning. Adding/removing air is also a tuning parameter thanks to increased/decreased roll out. I'v run as much as 35 in my 27.5" fronts when I had 1.58 60' times, vs 19 lbs in the wifes car at the same 60' to keep her from going red. Right now with the 302 I'm actually running "Volkswagen" fronts. 165/80R15, about 25.5 inches diameter. Works well with my 1.78 60' times.
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Found this to be interesting..... http://beta.hotrod.com/articles/line-lock-launch-a-mustang-drag-racing-tradition-since-1965/