FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Yellow Truck on June 11, 2016, 04:13:19 PM
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I know this is rather important, so I put some fuel in my baby today and pressurized my new system for the first time. Good news was there were no leaks, but the fuel pressure was acting oddly.
When I first turned on the pump it filled the carb (it is a QFT so it has the nice little windows - front one fuel was half way up the window, back one you can just see air at the top of the window). Initially the pressure ran up to between 6 and 7 PSI and I was pretty happy, but after checking for leaks I turned on the pump again, the gauge had shown pressure dropping to zero pretty quickly, but when the pump came on it shot up past 9 PSI, and it sat there. I turned it off and looked for the tools to adjust it, when I came back I tried it again, and it jumped to 9-10, then fell back to 6.
A few more tests and it is now consistently sitting above 9 PSI. I backed off the nut and backed out the screw as far as I dare, but the pressure is remaining up above 9 PSI.
What are the odds of a bad regulator vs a bad gauge? Is my process wrong (i.e. do I need to have the engine running to set the regulator?
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I'd adjust it running, that's what matters
However, 7 is a bit high, I'd rather see 5 or so. Pressure doesn't help a carb, it only needs volume, the pressure can make it fussy, especially in a truck where you may be bounding around
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I just went through the same situation. Took the regulator apart looking for problems. It looked fine. Should have since it was brand new. Couldn't get pressure to come down. Cure was another regulator which worked great out of the box.
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Mine is brand new as well. I'll try starting it tomorrow, if that doesn't work I'll get a new one Monday.
The carb documentation calls for 6.5 PSI, so 9 is NOT good. The gauge seems to be responding - I turned the adjuster screw in most of the way and ran the pump for a fraction of a second and it jumped to 14 PSI, so I'm thinking it is a bad regulator, but we will see when I get a few extra hands to start it for the first time (mostly need the extra hands for the fire extinguishers!)
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What regulator do you have? I've had a couple new Holley regulators that were doing the same thing, pure junk imo. I use aeromotive and have good luck since.
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Holley 12-803. Came with the fuel pump. Sadly it is kind of set into the fuel line routing now so changing the form is a bit of work:
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/2016-06-06%2021.26.40.jpg)
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Holy crap - Jaime at that price they'd better be perfect!
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They are a little pricey. Try the aeromotive 13205. 102$ from summit. That's the one I have and works great so far.
Also on edit, it's been a while since I changed mine but it was easy to do, looks like with the way your fuel system is set up, would be almost a bolt in.
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Thanks for that - when I looked on the Aeromotive site they only listed that in a kit with hoses and connectors that sells for over $150.
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Does it say it wants 6.5 or 6.5 max? I don't generally use QFT, but pressure doesn't do much for a carb, all of it's metering is in the unpressurized bowls
I'd still stay on the low side of it if I had a good regulator controlling things, but interesting if they really do want a
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Ross - the instructions with the carb say (note the poor grammar is theirs): "This QFT carburetor has been ran on an engine to insure all components are functional. The calibration should be very close for all adjustments. Different engine combinations could require adjustment of idle mixture, idle speed, and main jets. The fuel pressure was set with 6 1/2 lbs. of fuel pressure. The recommended fuel pressure for this carburetor is 6 1/2 PSI"
Seems they want 6 1/2 lbs.
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Wow, surprising, all that does is work the float and needle and seat a bit harder, but I agree, sounds like they want 6.5, If the man wants a ham sandwich, give him a ham sandwich :) 6.5 isn't horrible, but it's also why every time I talked to a QFT guy I was left scratching my head.
It's a like the back of the toilet though, the pressure only affects how much the float needs to push up. Once the fuel is in the bowl, it is completely unpressurized
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Drag car vs street car...
I'd agree with whats said on a hot street car but if you drag race this bad boy, pressure can compensate for 4 large jets and maybe 2 carbs living at Wide open throttle through the gears and out the back door,,,for you MPH number. If you make a lot of power, run slicks and low gears and want to see how it affects the time slip, watch the fuel pressure upstairs, under load, grunting to post your best MPH number and ET too.... More pressure can keep the fuel bowls higher than lower and often provide a more consistent fuel curve and better tunabilty and consistency. For me, there is a line where the car launches hard enough to need jet extensions because the fuel is rising and uncovering the jets. That can happen down track too.
Looks cool,fast and FUN !! Nice job. For hot street, no need to over pressure the needle and seat for cruising and an occasional mash of the loud pedal for us too....but we all ran a lot of the Carter and Holley, manual pumps set at 7.5 PSI for many reliable passes or miles.
Looks like a fast and fun Summer for you...! nice...
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Need volume for a carb, not pressure, running the bowls dry is a volume problem regardless how the engine is used
Problem is, you cannot easily measure volume during the race, so you watch pressure and if it drops you know you are running it out of fuel.
If you can hold 5 psi through the traps you won't run out of fuel any more than if you can hold 6.5 and inversely, if you can't hold 5 psi, you can't maintain 6.5
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Hi Ross
I hope I said on the old forum, but will do so again, I always really liked your work there. I recall you being an excellent resource to many FE cars and my pals and I always enjoy your work. And that Fast Back, well, I have one too and yours is S 'peach' !. How fast is she in the 1/4 I always wondered, I bet she scoots. Love that Mustang.
On this truck, I just share how we raced and won our trucks for FORD. We handed FORD a long row of trophies off road, and di the winners for parnelli, Walker Evans, Ben Ford himself, Larry Minor, who later sponsored the McDonalds funny car and rail, Rod Hall, and many others, James Garner even
We did a lot of R and D for Holley too, since we had the trick Heinan Freud Dynos with Fords EEE instrumentation, plus, we had the Autolite Dyno
On Holley testing, with their engineers in the cells, we always stayed at 7.
On the Ford Drag Team Winternations cars, and the 12 Ford Drag team cars we did in 68-9, we also shot for 7
Now here is a trick few recall but what the heck. and off road race truck does NOT like the cathedral bowls. We used many race Holleys, 750,850 Double pumpers, modified 780s, 750s, and changed the bowls on every one to race better, at 7 PSI. We re fitted the side hung 1850 style bowls because they take a lot more pounding and abuse, off road, and also, flat spot less in the rough stuff. I bet you and some of the old guys recall that era. Ford would budget us a bunch of money to enter 7 truck classes, and we usually won all 7. I see a truck here and wanted to add, if he plans to get her in the air, fly a bit over some jumps, and hammer her off road too, we had another key trick
We would take soft copper tubing, remove both steel bowl vents, then fabricate a u shaped tube, to plumb the front and rear bowls together. You bend the tube to go around the air cleaner stud boss, then drill 094 or so holes on the vertical axis, pointing up. These holes allow the atmosphere to balance both bowls, but during sever fuel slosh, and chassis attitude pitch and roll, aand let the fuel that tries to exit, move forward or back, and maintain supply
Same deal launching a car hard if the bowls are mounted inline, traditional. We had better luck with heavy cars pushing in to the 10s and 9s, using cathedral center swung bowls, sideways
Early examples would be Per AFX, or AFX, then Pro Stock FE's running 2 carbs, then 2 Dominators. Dyno Dons Maverick had 2 110 GPH pusher pumps out back, and 2 lines, to 2 regulators. Back then, we could run rubber, often 1/2 inch too, from the tank to the carbs.
I never know who is going how fast, and how much power we have, the goal, etc, so I want him to check a few more things
The Holley Mechanical pump says right on the box, 7.5 psi. It fits all FE's and here is my concern, that extra .5 in a way, helps compensate for the many Fords that only have a 5/16 fuel line
My 67 was always power limited by the 5/16 line that makes a lot of bends. By 68, our Drag Team cars, helped FORD re fit a 3/8 fuel line, and we went further in some cases.
Ford us, once we had a Big Block in to the 10s, and 2 carbs, we often had the good mechanical pump up front, and a carter or holley, electric pump close to the fuel tank helping
On the low 9 and 8 second stuff, a dual bung set up is good, since the launch sloshes fuel back then up the gas tank, so we silver soldered big female bungs to the back, no need for a center mounted pick up, and sediment trap
I think he has to fix this deal, reading closer, maybe his regulator has a latent issue, or defect?
Maybe debris, contamination?
I wonder if he needs a return
I do try to cover a lot of bases when I can, since it is real hard to tune by typing,,,,at some point....
I bet that if he gave you, or many other fast guys here an email, or phone call, you would dial him in just right.
You, for example, would be the kind of man that we would feel very thankful to have help fix a Hot Rod if we sent it to ya.
Keep up the exemplary work and thanks for your service...
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Thanks for the nice words, I appreciate it
What I failed to say was that "if you are able to keep float level under control" then although higher fuel pressure may not be needed, it doesn't hurt anything. You bring up good points with the float design, a center pivot should control better than hanging a long float off a side pivot and of course many rough running applications add more spring to stabilize as well as extend bowl vents etc.
However, what you also brought up was line size, you are spot on too. If the line is too small, you need to raise pressure to get the volume. Thats why EFI cars can get away with 8 mm (5/16) lines, they are at 49 psi or so. FWIW I run dual 1/2 lines with dual in tank pumps and equal return on the Mustang, overkill for sure, but its in preparation for a blown EFI motor in the future, if this one ever breaks.
Last thing, I make no secret about not being a QFT fan. However, I have held exactly ZERO QFT carbs in my hands. I have however talked to their tech guys about main well emulsion and how a transition circuit works and they never seemed to be able to explain why they did anything. On the other end of the spectrum, Bo Lawes, of BLP fame, not only talked the talk, but when we rapped about transition to the main circuit, he said that ALL metering blocks today are pretty poor for the reasons we rapped about, including his, and recommended to use an old style. So you may be on to something, but until I have a QFT in my hands, hard to say, and everything I do is slowly shifting to EFI, so it's not likely soon
Again appreciate the nice words, and if I need any work, I may call on you :) However, I remain lazy and things remain backed up for me LOL
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HolmanMoodyStroppeGang and Ross, the depth of your answers overwhelms me. Let me be transparent about a few things - I've never done anything like this before. I'm 59 and I wanted to build an FE since I was 16. I'm having a lot of fun with it, but you guys are WAY over my head. I can follow what you are talking about, but I couldn't do it.
I wanted this truck because I learned to drive a manual in the bush in northern Quebec in an 70 bump back in 73. It is a 4WD F100 Flare side, only one of 465 made in 1969. The suspension is stock although I took the spacer out of the rear to get it to ride level, and I put some traction bars in to reduce the spring wrap (and resulting wheel hop).
The fuel system is all 6 AN braided hose and I'm running a Holley Blue pump 12-802-1 (it puts out 14 PSI) and it came with a Holley 12-803-1 regulator (4.5 to 9 PSI). I have two filters on it including the QFT you can see in the picture, and I'm pretty sure the hoses were clean so I don't think it was contamination. I bought the carb from Survival on Barry's recommendation, I'm not pushing off responsibility - I just don't know enough about carbs to choose one.
I had planned to use the stock line as a return, thinking that the return flow would be adequate, but I've been advised that the smaller stock line will create an imbalance, so I'm just running a simple one line in - one out regulator.
This truck won't be seeing any rough use, it is a bit of a vanity project. Who knows, maybe I'll think about some suspension upgrades once I've got the engine working.
For now I'm going to buy a new regulator tomorrow - I don't want the loss of time and hassle of complaining to Holley. If they shipped a bad one once, what is to stop them doing it again. I'll buy a different kind. I have a friend who is a pretty good mechanic and a very meticulous person, so we will also take the carb apart and confirm the jets and probably take them down two sizes as we are running at 3,200 feet here.
I am always astonished at the quality of the answers I get here, and grateful that my questions get such thoughtful consideration.
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Gosh
Thanks kindly sir. Ross spends a lot of time sharing his tune up book to help, so do I. For me, this was the best part of being a Ford guy or gal,,,the camaraderie
People spend a lifetime earning things, and hundreds here can help you....I just hoped you might get her poppin soon, with less frustration
Now that I know more, sure, 5.5-6 lbs is cool since this is a street pounder. I didn't know if she was headed to the bracket races, to run for ET with sticky tires and low gears, open headers and so on
But another thought is, your power level, and use, would be just fine, with a standard, tried and true carter or Holley Hi perf mechanical fuel pump too? Real easy, very tested tried and true
They are rebuildable, get the diaphragm kit or send her out
But since you have the trick stuff,,,,you are set to go a lot further up the power ladder some day. Your system can support a very fast build too. You know high compression, big cam, a pair of carbs probably
What is awesome is....you finally did it !! How COOL !! You wanted an FE since age 16 and how awesome, your 59 years young and ready to check this off of the bucket list ! That just makes me beam with joy,,,
And don't worry about who is where and over under who-evers head or any such thing. I would wager hundreds of really skilled FORD folks here could do a better job than me....helping a general tech inquiry...but I try.
But you kind words are very much appreciated.
Hang in there, once the 'labor pains' pass, it is fun, fun fun time.....
Well deserved too...
Have fun
To ROSS,,,,thanks again sir for all that you do....I know how hard it is to help online, and how time consuming it can be, so I am among many who appreciate the work and wisdom.
How fast has that bitchin fast back gone, or is she a Street Terror? I was thinking shes a low 11, high 10 car?
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If you have a liquid filled pressure gauge then get rid of it. They are notoriously erratic and generally give bad readings. I went through several as well as 3 different regulators until I bought a cheap non liquid filled gauge and problem solved. 6-6.5 lbs pressure is all you need. Any higher will gain you nothing. If it did, my friends 935 HP 341 CI SBF would run more than 6 lbs.
Now, if your gauge isn't liquid filled, then as previously stated it's likely a regulator problem. Either way, keep the pressure down.
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Bought a new QFT regulator today (a 30-803) and we have pressure regulation! Holding nicely at 6.25 PSI. It took Holley 4 hours to call me back - it would have taken 4 hours on hold had I chosen that route - but I didn't notice the call. In any case I took the Holley 12-803 apart and it looked fine (no tears or foreign objects) it just didn't work. Set the floats, reduced the jet sizes (we live at 3,200 feet), and should be ready to fire her in the next day or two.
Posi67 - thanks for your suggestion. It is a non-liquid gauge. Up here in the frozen north "liquid" scares me. Short digression, I lost a heater hose in my 13 liter Caterpillar motorhome engine on the 805 in San Diego this February and dumped 13 gallons of coolant. I found the split and fixed it but now needed to find a bunch of heavy diesel coolant - and of course you don't know how much you lost (I had 2 gallons in the coach). Went to the first auto parts store and asked for "heavy diesel anti-freeze" and got a stare like I was a Martian. Took a second to realize that in San Diego "anti-freeze" had no meaning.
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HMSV - My stuff is all street, but IF I set it up for slicks, I do think low 11s, high 10s. The reason I haven't had it on a track is because I can't hook up, at all. I am considering a Calvert rear suspension (springs and bars) to help it a bit, but it really needs slick, or at least drag radials but when I jump in it, it's generally a 100+ mile day, so, so far at least, it is just relegated to street duty
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Hey Ross
We all live to run stuff like this on the street too because smoking the tires at the top of 2nd,3rd, and into 4th, is a blast and a bitchin way to learn how to slide a car and haul the mail....
I only asked because so many cats dual purpose a Hot Rod out this way,,,you know
A Nash or similar 5 speed, so you have a low final drive ratio in 1st through 4th...then you have the street trim, sticky cheater slick bias plys, or radials, sure, and adjustable ladder bars, 4 link on many of our cars, or Caltracs, etc,,,,,then the strip tune parts
This was mandatory for the car clubs we grew up in. You had the legal tires, and a pair of slicks to stuff in the trunk and wind over to the strip
Very common in the 60s and early 70s to get in to the pits, and see a bunch of stalls with a floor jack, the mufflers sitting there, the air cleaner and some fuel, maybe a tool box,,,often on a chain with a lock.....and the car in the staging lanes on slicks, open headers and a velocity stack. Usually you also, well we would,,,jet her up, bump the timing forward , run off the pump gas then make runs on good gas...lash the valves, change plugs,,,,you know
Well, sounds like some Summer you can set her up with the slicks, bigger jets and so on and run the number
I would very much enjoy watching that and hope many more guys do so this Summer
I had lunch with John Calvert a month ago. He was at out table for the judges at that Knott's All Ford show, with Butch Leal, Stroppe, 2 of DYNO DON's old guys, I was one, and others,,,2 FORD regional managers. He is a real nice guy and maybe if you need some Caltracs I can be of some assistance
Now for the old Drag dudes, we had a lot of luck, locally, in the 11,10 and 9 second range, on Mustangs, Camaros and similar,,,,with good old...ANSEN GROUND GRABBERS
These were hinged ladder bars that could take a huge, wheels up beating but were heavy,,,1/2 inch plate with lightening holes and a bunch of adjustments
I have on nice pair left and to old guys, they bring ya back to the cars hammering away at the local strips
Hey, maybe I can loan ya a pair hahahahaa !!
Thanks again for being a very knowledgeable asset to many aspiring Ford men and women.
One of our goals blogging was to make an effort to share some of the old tech with the next flock, so they could have fun without as much hassle. You know, share research, tune up and set up methods we got to use, and save guys time and hassle so they can have more fun
FORD spent millions to back all of our fleets then, millions on engine R and D alone
We always thought that it was a shame to let this work just fade away and be lost. So recalling a bit of it for the next generation to ponder seems fun, and a little piece of the old FORD team way for us
Just sharing, for fun and to maybe smoke more Dodges and Bow Ties
Thanks again to all, and of course, to the hundreds of very wonderful friends from elsewhere, who emailed over the past years
Many cool cats race here these days....and that seems productive, professional, and fun. Who needs to fight about Fords? Not us. We rather fight Chevy and Chrysler.
Happy that this FE man is up and running soon.
Working on a blown SOHC build today. Making a Magneto drive part for it and new chromoly crossbolt spacers,
Ready for the next race finally with a Funny car, looking for 570s next outing, and the dragster is 100% fresh, with a tune up and the latest parts to hopefully get in to the 550s on a good track, with good air and with some luck
Thanks guys
Oh,,,the latest acquisition for the collection is the original, and authentic car from the show Night Rider. So it is on display next to the 5 Movie cars in the theater area of the shop.
Christine is the 1st, next to my Bullit car, then the Back to the Future car, next to the Vanishing Point car, next to the Batmobile, next to the Night Rider
And we pull them out to cruise around the beach and LAUGH
THANKS
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I have to tell you, the old stuff is cool, but the Calvert stuff makes it much easier.
I see small slick FE cars launching at 3500, short shifting 1st and clicking off 9.80s, one of Blair's customers does it all the time.
The slick thing though, is the modern suspension makes it look like it's running 14s. It comes out smooth, doesn't wheel stand, it just drives away, you look at the clock and it's in the 9's. It's incredible.
I run underrider bars, subframe connectors, full welded unibody, and a strengthened rear housing. I have zero hop, but it burns the tires like an altered. What I am missing is weight transfer, however, I need to make sure if I toss it in a corner, I can get through the corner, or put a few people in the seat, I can still drive across the state.
That being said, we are drifting WAY off the original topic, let's get back to fuel discussion if the OP needs it
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Don't worry about me, I'm enjoying this. I think we are ok on the fuel problem. Crappy Holley part. Pressure is now sitting just above 6 PSI, bowls are just where they need to be, and reduced the jet sizes to compensate for our altitude. We had seepage around the bowls before we took them off to change the jets. That is how it came from QFT - they claim it was run on an engine and I could smell gas in it when I took the plugs out, but if they ran it they didn't inspect it took closely since the floats were off (fuel too high) and there was seepage. We put new gaskets in and torqued the bowls down - will check today to see if the seepage issue is gone.
Next up, gap the plugs and install them, and try to get it to fire. I've been reading about gap sizes, and since I'm running a Pertronix Ignitor and Flame Thrower coil I'll start at about .040 gap and see how she runs.
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Contrary to popular myth, CalTracs alone aren't the magic solution to traction problems. They certainly help and are a simple upgrade but unless everything else is right including track prep then the wheel spin doesn't just go away. Even my underpowered 390 recently tore up the start line on numerous passes and I have all the good parts on my car. An Automatic car is more forgiving but will still require the right combination to get ET's where they should be.
I also apologize for straying O/T however enjoy Ross's informative posts and hope he does get some time slips. Good or bad at least you can say you got down the track.
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HMSV - My stuff is all street, but IF I set it up for slicks, I do think low 11s, high 10s. The reason I haven't had it on a track is because I can't hook up, at all. I am considering a Calvert rear suspension (springs and bars) to help it a bit, but it really needs slick, or at least drag radials but when I jump in it, it's generally a 100+ mile day, so, so far at least, it is just relegated to street duty
Too bad you're not closer. You could use a pair of MT 28x9 Pro Bracket Radials and lightweight front tires that I got for my red '69 which should fit on your car and run your car at the track. The local track though doesn't prep the track very well though like for a NHRA event. Thor just went Saturday with the stocker and he had a good first run but car wouldn't hook after that. Not easy on 9 inch radials.
Here's Thor last Saturday:
https://www.facebook.com/OfficialSpokaneCountyRaceway/photos/a.1003208493049886.1073741914.174762352561175/1003209409716461/?type=3&theater
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So truth in advertising, here is what I need to fix to run it if it hooks up
- Need to figure out an engine strap or some other way to make sure I don't send the Victor through the hood.. stock mounts with PS and A/C I don't have an easy way to chain or strap it. I have been considering the Total Control mounts, but haven't figured out of they bolt to the early center oiler block
- Need to add a driveshaft loop (If I go slicks)
- Need to add extended lugs (If I go slicks)
So certainly nothing difficult, but I don't see myself racing a lot, so I keep talking myself out of it :)
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Since the OP is fine with the off topic, I'll chime in...
Simply through-bolting the stock mounts would probably work fine, Ross. I've done that several times and never had a mount break. However, that was always on the street. With slicks on a track, I think I'd step it up a bit, like welding an attachment to the AC bracket that you can tie down to the sway bar mounts, similar to how I tied mine to the front of the head where the AC mount attaches to. You've probably seen that in my "Upgrades" thread.
And ditto on what Dale said; simply throwing parts at it doesn't guarantee traction. I've got the full Calvert rear suspension, small block front springs, single adjustable rear shocks, 90/10 fronts, M/T ET rears, locker, and all I did was spin the first 100' at Beaver. And that was leaving at only 3000 (no slipper clutch, and I'm not interested in destroying my toploader). I got good weight transfer, but my shock setting was way off and let the rear 'rebound', unloading the tires. I think adjustable front shocks are in order also, and I need to install the roller spring perches I recently bought. Haven't had the opportunity to get it back to the track to see how some changes worked, but according to some play time on local deserted roads, I'm moving in the right direction. It's all fun though :)
Oh, and I can still corner. Just not fast...lol
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Yup, putting a bolt through the stock mount is a good idea. That's what the stocker has and it works just fine.
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I have a high dollar engine strap as well as the mounts bolted. Seems to work fine.
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You guys are being awful nice to me :) Especially when I learn a ton of stuff from you three heavy hitters!
I'll do it, aint nuthin but me making excuses for being lazy anyway
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Street trim vs Drag Trim
Hey Ross,,,,who da havy hitta here? Hmm JAY,,,that is fur sure
I would pin the mounts, we did it on the Drag TEam Cars for FORD and I kept doing it for years after. Grade 8 countersunk allen bolt through the left mount, both if you wish, and a castellated nut, USFine we used, then a cotter, or safety wire.
But you'd have fun. I would add, figure out your merge collectors and collector extensions
Develop the tune against the weather and the barometer, density altitude, track temp, grip and launch
Free up the front end. Adjust anything you can to allow the pitch roll to fight less, including, disconnect and or pull off the front sway bar. Get some adjustable front shocks to hold the weight transfer longer
Measure the roll out of both slicks, then don't be afriad to drop the perssure so that at the hit of the tire, the sidewal works
Ballast the car if needed, just a bit can help her track straight
Consider a rear mount battery. Figure out some cold air induction and maybe drop in a low thermostat to keep her cool. or cooler...
Consider a way to drop some water out of it to cool it down quicker between test runs.
Maybe drain the ethylene or propylene glycol, use water, water pump lubricant and even water wetter. Antifreeze can leak and really bust a tire loose fast. Anti freeze is banned on many tracks due to this. Water is much less dangerous if it gets under somebody's tires
Get a good puke tank to catch any boil over.
Maybe get a short belt to only spin the water pump, not a fan or alternator,,,,,or at least get a field bypass, You can use an old fiberglass flex fan that has just a little parasitic drag...
Preload the car if needed...this can be by way of ballast out back, or shims on the right perch sometimes, or, many things, using the bars and traction devices, like just the snubber adjustments on some old Lakewood style slapper bars,,,which hauled back when in Super Stock
Get a velocity stack or airhorn stub,,,,or baseplate
Get jet extensions if she launches hard enough to uncover the mains
Add a QT oil if you wish
Lower the viscosity if you wish
Bring a spark plug tree to read and hold on to the plugs, then write every adjustment and et in a notebook and compare it all. Note the bite, air, temp, settings
Watch the competition and see what car of your weight, and power level, has the best 60ft120 ft and 330 ft times. Use them as a tuning target.
Have a pal video the whole run. Then disect it step by step. How flat the car launches, how well it transfers weight, and how well the chassis reacts, how the tracks look after you make your run, and everything else.
Figure out when and where the car ET's best on the shift points. The Dyno sheet can help here as can short shifting in to high and so on
Figure out some retard amount for the car to MPH down track and as she winds...
Retard done right is a lot of free MPH for us usually
Look in to a bolt in roll bar
Mount a fire extinguisher in the car
Use a tell tale tach if you do not use a lap top to down load your data for the pass
A tell tale or tattle tale Tach is good to check how and where you actually shifted
HAve the best door car guy you know, stand behind the car. This is so helpful. Have him watch, look, listen and think it through. A seasoned and trained eye watching everything that you do from behind, and a good eye in the standsm, or down track, can be a huge help...when you need to make dial in calls
Lots more but have fun
And on the respect coming your way, hey, you take a lot of valuable time helping. I respect that, it is a asset to FORD Racing
So your praise here was deserved, and well earned ,,,people get paid on line, well, for providing good advice and decades of experience to new racers and builders, Plumbers get paid for online advice,,,,,,many trades do...so you earned it as have many other voices that try to help the FORD family
Most importantly Have fun and keep smilin !
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All that stuff you listed, neat for a racer, not for me, just being honest. When I do it, its for a short adventure, nothing more and I have no desire to change the personality of the car. In fact, if I put a set of drag radials and ran fast enough to get told to park it, I'd likely be done. Ever see the Tom Cruise movie, Days of Thunder? I am the grumpy old mechanic that builds for the racers, not the racer, in fact I'll likely apologize to the car for my indiscretion :)
FWIW though, not as much tuning for me and no jet extensions, etc. Its a port injected engine, quick release laptop bracket inside, I run it in any scenario, it logs everything, and a couple key strokes and I can change almost anything with a laptop and change it right back if I don't like it
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All that stuff you listed, neat for a racer, not for me, just being honest. When I do it, its for a short adventure, nothing more and I have no desire to change the personality of the car. In fact, if I put a set of drag radials and ran fast enough to get told to park it, I'd likely be done. Ever see the Tom Cruise movie, Days of Thunder? I am the grumpy old mechanic that builds for the racers, not the racer, in fact I'll likely apologize to the car for my indiscretion :)
FWIW though, not as much tuning for me and no jet extensions, etc. Its a port injected engine, quick release laptop bracket inside, I run it in any scenario, it logs everything, and a couple key strokes and I can change almost anything with a laptop and change it right back if I don't like it
Pretty sure Ross your Hot Rod will rip off a 11.50 no problem with some rubber and a good technique.
After that you need a bunch of safety gear including a spec roll bar.
As for Paul's setup your spot on at 6.25 psi.
Although at the track your setup would not pass tech. No fuel stuff on the firewall.
Looks great though. :)
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Not that I want to detract from the fun everyone is having with this thread - but I have a basic question this morning. To make sure we have the right size power valve we need to check the vacuum. All the instructions assume an automatic. I have a stick. First, does the vacuum increase or decrease when you put load on the engine, and what is the typical change?
I'm not crazy about trying to load the engine while stationary using a clutch.
And don't feel bad about the hi-jack - this question isn't related to fuel pressure either. BTW, because we had a slight leak coming from the bowls when we put them back after setting the fuel levels we took them off again and changed the gaskets. It was late so we called it a night and yesterday I ran the pump again to fill the bowls and make sure we didn't have any seepage. Good news was no seepage, but the fuel pressure had crept up above 7 psi, and the bowls were both filled to the tops of the sight glass. I confess some bad language was used. Today I'll drain the bowls again and we will re-set the levels. I'm hoping this is because we removed the bowls and metering blocks to change the gaskets out.
I don't understand why the fuel pressure crept up, but I'll set it down around 5 psi and keep any eye on it.
While I'm at it, Autolite says to install the plugs dry, I thought I'd seen recommendations to oil the threads - any opinions?
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You don't need to drain the bowls to set the level just run the motor. If you do drain, just pull one of the lower bowl screws and drain into a small catch can. Setting the level is easy with those clear sight plugs just remember that the big screw on top of the bowl is actually the lock and the nut below it does the adjusting. Logic wants you to think it's the opposite and I've seen so many guys spray fuel everywhere and adjust nothing. Turn the nut clockwise to lower the float. Sorry, I can't answer your power valve question properly so will leave that to someone more qualified.
As for the plugs (spark plugs, correct??) ... Never Seize is always a good idea especially if using aluminum heads. Doesn't need much but removal will be easier later on.
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Posi67 - thanks, but we have not fired it yet, so need to go the drain route. Have already done it twice so getting pretty good at catching the gas. I have some anti-seize I can use on the spark plugs.
Still hoping someone has a suggestion on getting the vacuum number.
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Vacuum usually goes down with load, and increases without a load, such as at idle or light cruise on a straight and level road, or down hill. Whatever the vacuum is at idle without a load, divide that by two, and get the next smaller power valve. ie 14 inches of vacuum with load(in gear with park brake applied/auto) and divide by two gives you seven. A 6.5 power valve would be just fine. The number is stamped on the side or top of the power valve. With your standard transmission, just start engaging the clutch with the park brake applied, and watch the vacuum for lowest reading just before stalling in gear. Divide that by two, and use the next lower number power valve. Joe-JDC
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Quickly
Ross can run any non sanctioned track all day without a cage and we do it all the time, so do others.
Fuel pressure can be dialed in old school, like a tuner. Run the car through the 1/4 over and over, reducing the PSI until she noses over. When she goes lean and slows down,increase it a pound maybe....but any setting in this range is fine....this is not a race car.
If you do pull fuel away, until she noses over(slows down due to lean mixture), you know the low range, but again, Holley spent millions developing their products, and the standard hi vlume Holley mechanical comes with 7 1/2 PSI for many good reasons
One key reason? VAPOR LOCK
When a FE car gets red hot after 4 hours of towing in a desert, or getting hammered real hard, like rode hard and put away wet .. hard. they get hot. We raced FEs about 24 hours for the BAJA 1000 and they could cook and cook since they were to the wood mostly. We learned a lot by winning a lot. Oil coolers are important, so is a deeper sump on a C6, and so on,,,,double trans coolers with ducted fans, etc,,,
The block, heads, trans, exhaust, and all related parts, can hold a lot of BTU's....then the engine can get shut off, go to restart and be quite unhappy. It heat soaks to such high temps can cause your fuel can percolate, boil off, bubble and cause hot start problems, and performance issues, big time. And the engine can have abig swing in Air Fuel ratio, and the fuel curve settings, We don't like that
Higher fuel pressure, PSI, reduces this ill effect, kind of like much higher radiator PSI, in a cup car reduces steam pockets in the heads. Using a nice carb spacer made of bakelite or phenolic, or sandwiched gaskets with aluminum plates, helps. Use at least the factory plastic or aluminum carb spacer,
All lines must be positioned far away from the hottest heat sources,, like exhaust manifolds, the exhaust flange area of the heads, and any other source of high radiant heat. Strategic ducting of cool air coming in and around the core supprt for the radiator can help remove heat,,,easy
The shielding is good on many builds, a simple heat deflection barrier, just tin you see on many OEM cars
The higher PSI can help raise the percolation point, or decrease these deleterious affects, and, cool the fuel source by compressing it just a bit more. Cooler fuel can yield better power too,,
Granted,,,,,a 390 GT Mach 1 for example, had, 3/8 lines, and a single diaphragm, 5 to 5 1/2 PSI small style mechanical pump. But this was fine for a small 4300 series motorcraft carb. As soon as you stepped up to a FE with a factory Holley, you saw the system engineered with 3/8 line and the better pump....the CJ Fe's for examples, and Bosses...
Once you took those cars, added cam, headers a bigger Holley, open exhaust, bigger jets, more compression, and so on, the 7 PSI system helped the car ET more consistantly....A high launch RPM and low gears factored in
You are fine PSI wise, the issues are now the tune up, for me
Tuning
her and making it your own,,,,
Get it close and break it in settings....Run her 100-200 miles and let the engine work itself in, get happy and loosen up a bit. I usually set it 'under center'. Set it a bit retarded on the total timing, and a bit rich to be safe.
I also still run it in, break it in, change the oil, let her cool all the way down and re torque all of it. Seat the rings, do a leak down and compresson test,,,,,etc. As she breaks in, the idle RPM can go up a tad, the oild pressure may settle down a few pounds, the engine will sound stronger, and it will come in to it's own....
We re snug everything....Exhaust, muffler clamps, headers, the heads, rocker shafts, intake, carb, front drives, lets see fan H2O pump, radiator clamps big time, radiator mounts, bellhousing, re tighten the belts, check it all....snug the oil pan, valve covers, plugs,,,,all of it
Then we tune
I do it how we did it at FORD to certify fleets of FORDS for Cal Emissions
For ever, just install a t fitting between the vacuum advance hose, that goes to port vacuum,,,below the primary throttle blades,,,,,
Run the line inside the car, either through the fire wall, or, out the crack in the hood, around and inside a window, then mount a large vacuum gage in your line of vision
Bring a note book
Now drive the car through all of the terrain you like to use the car on. Cruising, passing a car, climbing a hill, flooring it from a dead stop, from 30 MPH from 50 up to 70 MPH, and whatever you like
Make notes, of when you feel the main circuits come in
You can feel the primary PV come in, say at 6.5 like big Joe suggested, and feel the rear PV, if applicable say the 75 80 or 8.5
Now, do the drill
Change the front 65, to a 70, drive it, feel it
Try a 60, run it, feel it, listen close, use your Butt Meter to feel how hard she pulls
If you desire the best 1/4 mile ET, tune the PV's to net the bet ET and time/speed
If she is basically a cruiser, and once in a while, bruiser, then dial the PVs in to do this nice
Read the plugs after you pick your PVs and give her a tank of gas, or 20-30 miles at least.
Take these plugs, put them on a plug tree....or holder numbered to display all 8 plugs and the color, for comparison
Install fresh plugs, color them with some use, then have the best plug reader you know, opine.
Reading plugs is a science for top performance. It is a huge deal for a racer, or, a well well tuned V8
Use magnification, and do research to find out what to look for
Remember,,,,,your 4 V,,,,be it a holley, carter, AFB, QF or Weber, has 3 circuits to mess with idle, transiton, and main jets
and, secondary opening, and acelerator pump shot size, and timing
Get a tutorial or book for better exploration
We dial stuff on chassis dynos too, depends on the goal.
OK 2 macro thoughts and tuning schools. You can develop 2 tune ups. One can rely on the power valves, transition circuits and idle circuits more, and the main jets less......ao, vice wersa...less PV fuel and more main jets. Size wise...One make a better darg mobile, the other has a leaner economy mode for fuel mileage and economy.
A 3rd set up, or state of tune can be your Grudge Race tune....for when you have a big race....more jet, more timing, loose the exhaust pipes and air cleaner maybe, and hit er hard,,,,this is all your call
Gotta run, but have fun, nice job, and have a blast amigo
Email any of the tuners here, maybe those with the biggest tune up book,,,,like Joe there, he has decades and decades of wisdom, and a great attitude, and many awesome builds, over a life time,,,,,and Ross,,,and shucks, if Detroit Barry sold ya the carb, get his input,,,and Quick Fuels,,,,and do the work
Tune her sharp man, razor sharp. And if you feel a bit unsure, just be conservative and run a bit less total advance, and a bit more jet...
Also, dial in how the vacuum advance comes in. This is very important because if done right, and very methodically, it also reveals a lot of power, and less detonation, and economy...and ET
Set the total timing by power timing it, and writing that down. Vacuum advance removed and plugged, spin her up to 3000-4000 in the shop, and note the total advance.....write it down,,,,,use it to tune off of.
You have quick burn heads, that is another learning curve as to total advance,,,,,start low,,,,,call BBM, maybe run 32 total then bump her from there, in 1 degree increments. Our old true FORD heads liked more total,,,,especially on race gas and over 12.5 to 1. We ran 14.5 to 1 quietly in the NASCAR and PRO STOCK programs, for example....mixed gas, used tricks to not hurt it,,,,,interesting tricks too
Be consistent on the type and octane of the fuel. This is very important. If you are deaf, like me, you may get a knock sensor light some day,,,,,to never miss a ping when the stereo is blasting away and you are gabbing away with some fine thang,,,,,your lady
And try low octane, a gallon or 2,,,and learn how bad she wants to ping if you get a bad load of fuel
This happens, stations sell premium that is actually regular..all the time, they make a lot more money and could care less about breaking your ring lands, or detonating the moly off of the top rings, etc
have fun
Much more to share, this can get you started
Ross is a real good tuner too
Many are
If a person makes a living doing this trade, building engines, tuning Hot Rods, and if they have decades of work in their tune up book, listen to them and say thanks
Last thing,,,,never trust any blog if an anonymous expert is just re typing group speak from the blog. A lot of false theories get life by repetition, Be your own engineer and do your own dial in. And be wise and careful, make baby steps and never hesitate to ask experts, or pals with a similar build. Break her in with a safe base tune up..
You are a conscientious builder, that is great
Chip away at that stone
Proud of your attention to detail
Thanks to all of you guys. The above is just an essay to hopefull stimulate a nice guy to have more fun, and gain some cool results from his ride....and of course, there are many ways to skin an onion.
I enjoy when we all, chime in, to add any relavant idea, and help one and other. Over the years, I have a lot from some people on the web. I have shared what FORD was so gracious to share with us, out of respect and gratitude...
Ford tough
Smoke em hard for Henry (Ford)
Todays tasks include,,,,Magneto mounts for a blown FORD FE and mocking up SOHC drive parts to manufacture
Thanks now
Oh oh Larry Knapp is feeling a lot better, still on bed rest and medication
I gave ya 30 minutes, that is 60 bucks in our shop
And this was fun, spoke to Don The Snake after this, for 20 some minutes,,
Will be at the break in and burnout for the Super Snake....and for fun
The Injecor has 62 nozzles,,,,a blank in it,,,,and 40 degrees oof lead in tha pretty new Cirello Magneto
It is cackling hard and getting shot by Rodders Journal, soon
Prudhomme is eager to start doing some nice long burnouts in it ,,,,,,,soon
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I gave ya 30 minutes, that is 60 bucks in our shop
Well I guess that pretty much covers....everything.
Where does he send the check?
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Not that I want to detract from the fun everyone is having with this thread - but I have a basic question this morning. To make sure we have the right size power valve we need to check the vacuum. All the instructions assume an automatic. I have a stick. First, does the vacuum increase or decrease when you put load on the engine, and what is the typical change?
I'm not crazy about trying to load the engine while stationary using a clutch.
And don't feel bad about the hi-jack - this question isn't related to fuel pressure either. BTW, because we had a slight leak coming from the bowls when we put them back after setting the fuel levels we took them off again and changed the gaskets. It was late so we called it a night and yesterday I ran the pump again to fill the bowls and make sure we didn't have any seepage. Good news was no seepage, but the fuel pressure had crept up above 7 psi, and the bowls were both filled to the tops of the sight glass. I confess some bad language was used. Today I'll drain the bowls again and we will re-set the levels. I'm hoping this is because we removed the bowls and metering blocks to change the gaskets out.
I don't understand why the fuel pressure crept up, but I'll set it down around 5 psi and keep any eye on it.
While I'm at it, Autolite says to install the plugs dry, I thought I'd seen recommendations to oil the threads - any opinions?
I assume you have a dead head regulator. With those you should really have the engine running to set the regulator. I think you have a reasonable chance of getting a different pressure reading if you run the pump with the engine off. They are also very sensitive to any debris.
You might consider a return style regulator.
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Wow. Ok, all that is at the edge of my knowledge, but I know enough to now to start to follow it. I don't want to hire anyone, what is the point in that. It is about learning what you can by reading and what people who know can tell you, then going and finding out what that actually looks and feels like with your own hands.
Looks like I have a summer of fun ahead of me.
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I gave ya 30 minutes, that is 60 bucks in our shop
Well I guess that pretty much covers....everything.
Where does he send the check?
He will still be 40 short of what he owes Dale. ;)
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Fuel pressure creep is a sure sign the needle tip is soft, or wrong one. You need to make sure the rebuild kit had parts that were compatible with methanol/alcohol/ethanol/gasoline mix. The fuels of today will deteriorate the rubber/viton that was used a few years ago. I just had to replace a carburetor on my lawn mower that had a rubber needle and seat because the fuel had softened it to the point the tank kept draining into the oil. Joe-JDC
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I gave ya 30 minutes, that is 60 bucks in our shop
Well I guess that pretty much covers....everything.
Where does he send the check?
He will still be 40 short of what he owes Dale. ;) Ha ha funny,,,,I wish you guys joy, happiness and a lot of smiles. I think the poster could use your suggested tune up calls, and your input on dialing her in. Maybe suggest his jet ranges, and help him get some plugs charts, and so on,,,,,be well guys
Talked to Prudhomme for 25 minutes today,,,,what a nice man, and funny, and awesome...all good, all positive, all business,
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I gave ya 30 minutes, that is 60 bucks in our shop
Well I guess that pretty much covers....everything.
Where does he send the check?
I learned more from Joe in 2 minutes and it was for free. Apparently, talk isn't cheap but spending other people's money is certainly easy. At any rate, I'm still waiting for my escorted trip South with the US Marshalls. Could use a little spending money if someone paid off on the bet.
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Joe - it is a brand new QFT regulator. Howie - I assume everyone is taking Canadian dollars! BTW - who is Dale?
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I agree that you should have the engine running to set the pressure, however it should hold even without the engine running. My next suggestion would be to have a return fuel line to the tank to keep the fuel circulating and cooler. What fuel pump do you have? If you have an EFI pump instead of a carbureted electric pump, then the pressure will be much higher. I am sure they should have sent the right one, but errors happen. Joe-JDC
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Joe - it is a brand new QFT regulator. Howie - I assume everyone is taking Canadian dollars! BTW - who is Dale?
When talking FE I always use Yankee dollars.
Dale is Posi67. It's an old bet from the 54 forum.
Dale won, I finished but was slower, and Tom never posted.
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To make sure we have the right size power valve we need to check the vacuum. All the instructions assume an automatic. I have a stick. First, does the vacuum increase or decrease when you put load on the engine, and what is the typical change?
Your carb most likely came with a 6 PV and you said you are at about 3500 feet so yo will be in the zone.
The most important thing is to keep the rpm up when you do fire it.
You will have lots of time to mess up the carb after you have a few 100 miles on it.
Me, I don't really mess around to much with the carb if it is working.
I only make it worse. And I'm at sea level so it's easy to make them work. ::)
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According to QFT it is a 6.5 PV. The fuel pump is a Holley Blue (12-802-1). It should put out a maximum of 14 PSI. I'll try to get it to run and hold pressure with the simple system. If I have to I'll run a return. I may thy to use the original fuel system as the return even though it is smaller than the delivery side, and I'f that won't hold I'll run a whole new system.
I did learn one handy trick doing the fuel line. I'd been told that cutting the braided steel lines was a big pain, and most people use an angle grinder. Barry R said a sharp chisel worked best, but I borrowed a cable cutter from a friend. It is basically a chisel held in a cylinder with a base and an exposed striking surface. Holds the hose in place while you give it a mighty whack. It made getting clean cuts pretty easy.
Having said that, the biggest problem in running a return line is I'm running a stock fuel tank and it was hard enough to get an extra pick-up into it, to replace the old pick-up with a wider tube would be a significant problem.
Howie, our little Canadian dollars don't go very far these days.
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One parting thought for you
FORD won more than anybody with the FE F250 platform in the 70s. Some key tricks were learned by spending a lot of FORD money and by race engineering to win, a lot. I would have been fired on the spot for sharing a few tricks below, but, 40-45 years later, I think we are safe HAHAHAHAA Besdes, we hired the Boss' son years back,,,so,,,we all love the old trucks and want to see everybody have fun. No sponsorships to lose here HA HA
An race truck is a special deal. And FE is perfectly suited to win off road, it is a torque monstor if done right, and with a tall gear, say racing the BAJA 1000, they were very hard to beat !!
Imagine a trick F250, with 3 shocls per wheel, and a fully triangulated race chassis, tall BF Goodrich or Firestone 15 by 10 desert race tires, full floating rear axles with knock offs on aluminum mags, and over 140 MPH down a sandy beach,,,floored for mile after mile YEEE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
So
Your 3500 altitude tune up could be a tad lean at seas level. Let us know this, will the truck always run at 3500 ft? Will it coome down to seas level too? Will it get some action at 4000,5000, 6000 feet to? Hey, we all gotta climb that mountain to say we did it, ya?
ha ha
Here is what we did racing up Pikes Peak, or over on the Barstow to Vegas races, or, the Mint 400 races.
For max power, floored, on a race ngine...and you have a nice motor there...the 2 general tuning rules can help you get in to a safe zone a bit easier. Just info for you to use on the basic tune up
I would reduce the main jets, around 1 number, for every 2000 feet above sea level, if, and only if, you goal is max power while floored for top MPH and lowest ET
So for you, maybe is she likes, lets guess, 72s and 76s,,,primary and secondary jets
If we are hangin it out over half a mile in the sky,,,,3500 ft,,,your barometer, temp, density altitude, water grains will factor in heavily, if we tune off of a weather station, sure, but given STP,,,standard temperature, and pressure (atmospheric) Id start with 2 steps leaner
70s and 74's
You will not kill a pump gas FE being a little lean, and it will act crisper,,,and less boggish,,I HATE FAT FUEL CURVES if un necessary !! LEAN IS MEAN
NEXT
At altitude, the base tune up usually wants a little more initial advance
I would curve your distributor by pulling away a little mechanical advance, and a bit of vacuum advance, Id raise the start stop points there, then add 1 to 2 more degrees static
So since you have fast burn BBM heads you say, do the R and D,,,,,and maybe, if we pick 34 degree total timing.... and your distrib has a curve set for 24 in the mechanical advance, so 10 is on the damper,, 10, plus 24, for 34 total, no vacuum...I would change my curve, to 22 and 12. Do a base line before and after
You can acceleration test up there real easy too with a stop watch
Find a nice 1/4 mile out in the boon dock,,,,some safe place where you can mark off a nice flat 1320 feet...and be safe.....and make 10 runs and time them. Be consistent
Then use your hand tool,,,,,jets, timing light, vacuum gage, and plugs, and the spark plug reader....and so on
And see, by testing, what that cool F250 wants. She will tell you, every run, if she is happy as you adjust her to a nice state of tune
Have fun
And of course,,,,if you come down the mountain, for a race at seas level,,,,,use your note book,,,,maybe add some jet size back,,,,say plus 2 plus 2 and then pull the leed ie base timing,,,back 1 or 2 degrees,,,and re test her
And if you get a match race, decide to pull off the mufflers,,,lose the air cleaner, then add jet and add some advance, and so on
Just basic tuning
We won Pikes Peak and set a record that stood for years with another little trick
a 13 to 1 race motor at seas level,,,,,,has much much less cylinder pressure at a mountain race.
If we need to haul arse from 5000 ft altitude, up to say 8000 -9000 feet,,,,,guess what? You can run much much more compression, just to get the engine to squeaze the charge, like it does at sea level. We ran, say, BOSS 429s,,,,and stroked 427 High Risers, a few SOHCs,,,,way way up to 14-1 15-1
Here is a general knowledge missive for you and maybe it can help
The Holley suggestion of decreasing jet size by one number per 2000' elevation is a good starting point. You might want to experiment with power valves too. To check and verify your experiments, find a long section of relatively straight highway, drive at your normal cruise speed for a few miles then put it in neutral coasting to a safe place to park off the highway. Pull all of the spark plugs and read them. Use a lighted magnifying plug reader to verify that there are no aluminum dingle berries hiding down deep in the plug at the base of the insulator. Best plug condition will be a consistent light tan color on the insulator.
You probably already know this, but you will also want to advance your timing by a few degrees up on the mountain.
So using 2 or 3 sets of plugs can help you tune it. Allow some time to let the plugs color, or get enough deposits to see well dont read them when still white,,,let them color all the way down. Watch the color of each thread cloely,,,thread one tells a story, then thread 2,3,4. You will see the temperature, change the color of the sharp edge of the spark plugs thread,,,,this color is also, like a little temperature gage, or evidence...but the color, is first and best.
And be aware of how even all 8 plugs compare....you can sometimes bandaid a tune up depending on the intake and cam. Many FEs have won races stagger jetted. Not sure if we are racing though
But a perfect tune, on many intakes that are not optimized as to equal length runners, and equal intake port, tract, dynamics, do sometimes like a funny set of jets to get bitchin pyrometer readings on the dyno
Some of our winning race truck engines, for FORD, for class 1 and 2,,,real fast FE trucks,,,,did get stagger jetted a bit If you race, let me know. Our race trucks did some times have best power, with main jets out back, not the same size
Now here is a huge trick we also won with
a fast truck,usually sees a nice power gain, with a nice 2 inch, or 3 inch tall, carb spacer.
We used the 4 hole offenhouser spacer most. The good 4 hole spacers, reduce carb temps, thus add fuel density and cooling, plus, they mimic a larger plenum, and allow more jet.
Many FE intakes dyno better with a nice carb spacer,,,,but you cant fit them under many door car hoods. You can do a bubble hood, but on a F250, we also ran a 4 inch spacer, and a double stacked air cleaner,,,,,a 14 by 3, on top of a 14 by 3 air cleaner, and then a K and N oil foam pre filter around the air filters
Have fun
If you add some old FORD race Truck tricks to her, it would make a lot of old FORD racers smile
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HolmanMoodyStroppeGang - let me start by asking if you have a shorter name?
Thanks for an excellent lesson. Learned more from your posts than I have from the books I've read. The truck is an F100, not an F250 - that is one of the things that makes it rare. There were 465 Flareside 4x4 F100's made out of a total of 8,571 F100 4x4s made in total.
I did pull the jets back - it came with 78s in the front and 86s in the rear and we went to 76/84s to start. I had the distributor re-curved with 11 degrees mechanical advance, all in by 2,950 rpm. Also had the vacuum advance limited to 10-12 degrees. I wrote to BBM and they suggested total advance of 32 degrees.
I did put a 1 inch plastic spacer under the carb, and I did some port matching on the Street Dominator intake, plus opened up the plenum.
I don't plan on taking it down to sea level, but I may one day. If so, I'll have to lay in a supply of jets.
First thing is to get it fired and check to make sure we don't have any real issues, check the O2 to get it reasonable, then go break in the engine and clutch. Sadly, to break in the engine I want to do a bunch of runs at WOT for about half an hour to seat the rings, but the McLeod clutch came with instructions to avoid WOT and absolutely not put it on a wheel dyno until the clutch has about 1,200 engagements. I think I'll take it out to a highway near me and run it hard up and down the gears in 3rd and 4th (second on the old NP 435 is basically first and it would probably slip the clutch too much).
I don't plan on racing the truck, but you never know. Once this project is in the bag, may start looking at the tranny - I'd like to replace the NP 435 and Dana 21 with a Borg Warner T-19 and a Dana 20 to get 4 useful gears.
BTW there were only 14,143 F250 4x4s made in '69. They are not exactly common either.
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HolmanMoodyStroppeGang - let me start by asking if you have a shorter name?
This is Tom. Yes that Tom. ;)
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If you're limiting to 32 degrees total I believe you're leaving something on the table. Performance FEs with mostly factory parts like 10 (20) in the diz and close to 18 initial for a total of 38.
KS
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Tom (aka HollmanMoodyStroppeGang) do you have any pictures of those old trucks and engines?
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Tom (aka HollmanMoodyStroppeGang) do you have any pictures of those old trucks and engines?
And that's when the trouble started.... LOL. Sorry, but it's a bit of an inside joke that has nothing to do with your post and this Forum. Tom was a bit camera shy back in the 60's and 70's possibly due to his age however he does provide some good info once you filter out the unapplicable parts.
As for timing, I'd start with the BBM recommendation of 32 deg. The newer style chambers don't need or want 38 like the old days. No idea what rings you used but they will generally seat almost immediately. There again, not like the parts of old. Won't hurt to run it up and down a few times under a load but I wouldn't worry about the 1/2 hour ritual.
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Have fun dialing her in and nice work.
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Dale,
Thanks for the input. I was going to start at the recommended timing and explore gently from there. Don't spoil my fun breaking it in - half an hour of booting it outside of town and burning gas!
https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.8922519,-114.304462,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sCMXGt-y1TSW7UnZDfOTT2w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DCMXGt-y1TSW7UnZDfOTT2w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D81.669228%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.ca/maps/@50.8922519,-114.304462,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sCMXGt-y1TSW7UnZDfOTT2w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DCMXGt-y1TSW7UnZDfOTT2w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D392%26h%3D106%26yaw%3D81.669228%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656)
That is the highway I plan to use, and just at the horizon you can see the Rockies. They are much more impressive in person.
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That is the highway I plan to use, and just at the horizon you can see the Rockies. They are much more impressive in person.
I have a very young grandson who lives near that highway.
Last time I was on it I was driving a Kia. YA. ::)
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Tom (aka HollmanMoodyStroppeGang) do you have any pictures of those old trucks and engines?
And that's when the trouble started.... LOL. Sorry, but it's a bit of an inside joke that has nothing to do with your post and this Forum. Tom was a bit camera shy back in the 60's and 70's possibly due to his age however he does provide some good info once you filter out the unapplicable parts.
As for timing, I'd start with the BBM recommendation of 32 deg. The newer style chambers don't need or want 38 like the old days. No idea what rings you used but they will generally seat almost immediately. There again, not like the parts of old. Won't hurt to run it up and down a few times under a load but I wouldn't worry about the 1/2 hour ritual.
100% agree
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I missed your request about the old shop. We never had a problem with pictures of Ford racing, I just don't have time to scan, file, format, upoad and all of that.
We have piles of scrap books, and hopefully some day we can get these up on the web but doing so is not my passion. I have a ton of work, not a lot of time, and too many teams and projects happening.
If we get more help, we all think it could be fun.
Thanks for the request. We do have a website or 2, email us and we can share it maybe soon?
Our truck programs usually had 7 to 11 cars entered, in Class 1 through 7. We had an amazing win/loss ratio.
FORD filmed our trucks for their ad campaigns on TV and these old commercials are on U Tube we are told. Look for a fast, white truck, getting air, and FORD saying..FORD tested tough..
Google Walker Evans, FORD, Off Road race trucks, or Parnelli Jones, Bill Stroppe, Big OLY, Off Road Bronco. Look for the cars from about 1967 through around 1978. It was such an nice thing, to have such a dominant racer, and he is a platnum race winner, in trucks we built for him.
When FORD defunded FORD racings part of the race trucks, Chrysler raced in, handed us 1 Million bucks, and fully funded Walker to build his own shop and truck program. So we became Dodge Racing while still having FORD racing contracts for a while.
The Parnelli Jones Winged Bronco won every race it entered, but maybe one if I recall
Ford was so happy about this that the Bronco, is in the Parnelli Jones wing of the Indianapolis 500 museum there on the grounds. I posted pictures of me, Stroppe, Parnelli Jones, Larry Knapp and others a few summers ago. We were judging at a SHELBY event.
I got pages of emails after this lamenting a few people who invented things to claim we were not there and felt this wacky smear stuff might subside. No reason why it should not have because me and the gang were there, with a spare...LOL a spare BFG race tire and we blew up hundreds of them racing in the desert ! LOL !! Shredded them silly !!
Larry Minor had us build his race F250s for about 5 years. We are all still friends. He was a major provider of french fries to MsDonalds for decades and is quite successful. He is a happy, strong, racers racer. He did well, then he went back to Drag Racing and sponsored the McDonalds Top Fuel team with Ed the ACE ,,,,and the red Funny car with Cruz Pedregon and others. Google Larry Minor off road race truck, FORD f250. To be in a shop that builds the race cars for Larry Minor himself, was a privilege. He sure could beat and beat on a race car. We all laugh and cry remembering how hard he could race !! He was a brute !! never lifted !!
Rod Hall raced our trucks, so did heir to FORD Motor Company, BENSON FORD. Google Rod Hall, FORD race truck,,,,or Ben FORD, Courier race truck,,,in the 1970 1976 era.
Very fond memories I personally have of being in the DYNO cells, with Dyno Dan N(Built cammers for Dyno Don), was in FORDs EEE in Detroit.....anyway, i got to know BENSON FORD by explaining to him what we were doing as his race engines spun away in preparation for his Hot Rods. Ben Ford did real well racing his Ford offroad. Very kind, funny, decent, classy guy. Always has an entourage of assistants with him. A Doctor, Lou Fuentes, who was his Trustee, and a Lawyer, who was a hoot. And often a fellow mega millionaire from Detroit
We all were a very thankful FORD family. We raced to win, and won a lot.
Jack Roush was just beginning his race programs, and we would get him a motel and car, when he visited out West. He had yet to make the millions and remembers Stroppe and the boys for being very good to any FORD team member
We built cras for Mario Andretti and boy did I light up when he walked in to the machine shop one day and I was turning parts. Trust me, I shut down my machine, smiled until it hurt and said hello, in Italian. He smiled and smiled,,,,and of course asked,,,,where's Byron ( Our Leader, Foreman)
James garner, the actor,,raced our trucks,,,,google that. Steve McQueen raced COBRAS we did. He would walk in the shop,,,,,one time,,,,with Nataly Wood on his arm? mama Mia !!
There are many more. We were fortunate. We had a huge piece of the FORD DRAG TEAM, and the FORD GT40 program. I kept dyno data, and engine build sheets from this whole era.
Late on, when this shop closed, I went into partnership with our best guy, to do FORD race engines for a few years a mile away. My Boss then, built the drag car that won the First US Nationals. My next shop was doing engines and new car R and D with Stroppes best chassis man. We founded Terra Van, then BERM engineering, and one more corp. BRUCE, helps me do our essays here and there. He wrote for Off Road for about 10 years, and we raced top fuel in the late 60s. I was young, but building drag motors from a very young age with my older pals. Mostly, doing Crew Work, like writing down all the tune up date, then serviving it all betwen round. BRUCE, was a Crew Chief on Kalittas SOHC top fuel car for about 3 years.
If Connie remembers us, it felt odd some guys none of us know could be so upset that, we did not sna a KODAK hour by hour. ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa bruce wants his tool box back Connie,,,,that is his joke. Kaliita stole one of our guys roll away He laughs so hard when we remember this
Stroppe, PRE Holman, dynoed Kalittas Nitro SOHC. We also changed his chassi out. Cut up is dead chassis tubes and made a Go Kart !!
People wanted all of this in a book, i didn't....LOL....So me and 5 of the old team, began meeting, chatting and remembering this era, and I shared some of it online. The pushback never made sense to any of us, especially since the 6 of us, never met, or even know, a few guys who made a huge fuss over a lot of odd, personal things my friends would rather keep to themselves.
please believe this, from the heart. Every essay I did, was out of deep respect for the men who were our mentors, leaders and influences, and are no longer here. The remaining guys, have shared a little of the old FE team, out of appreciation to FORD, and respect for the older men. And of course, for teh FORD racers who we lost, while hanging it out for FORD.
Also Google our Courier Race Trucks. We did race trucks for FORD, to promote the COURIER line of vehicles. They were a nice platform for a very blueprinted, inline 4, on propane.
This was the Rough Rider era and Stroppe was a founding Father of off road racing, the BAJA 1000, the MINT 400, the Parker Race and more
Mickey Thompson got involved in the mid 70s, and helped give birth to stadium off road racing
Google OFF ROAD magazine artciels from 1970-80. We were in most issues, because we at times entered 7 classes, and won all 7 classes, for FORD
There is a book, called, The Boss, that recalls a lot of this era, and that was vetted by FORD Motor Company
We were so thankful to be well funded, to continue to race FE's, long after the Drag Team was de funded
So many of the team, and we had over 125 men in the shop for a while, made a living, racing 428s,390s, 427s, stroked 390s and also, refreshing FE's from the prior FE race boats, Drag Team cars, and more
We had a lovely engine room, and engineering building. 7 engines could get built at a time, on stands that were poured into the concrete, in a line, on a floor painted epoxy dark FORD Blue
An overhead crane and chain fall lifted then rolled them down to 2 FORD top shelf Heinan Freud precison race engine dynos, Once broken in, and dialed in, they slid in to a race car. And then came back, and torn down and inspected as I have described.
We built many winning INDY engines, many race cammers for Pro Stock, and Drag and Off shore boats.
We built the 2 fastest SOHC ever, they all agreed, since my bosses and mentors, did the 2 cammers for the AUTOLITE SPECIAL. This is the same streamliner Danny Thompson just set a new world record with. He did it for his Dad, Mickey Thompson. Danny and me smiled about the old SOHC car, last Summer.
please google that awesome hot rod. We all took it to Bonneville in 67. My 2 main bosses, who I did engines and machining under, were quite proud of FORD here. These 2 SOHCs, went 370 MPH, then 380 MPH on very bad salt. The rain, had hurt the course so nobody could floor thier car and make a full run. 2 of our SOHCS, spinning the tires, and not even floored, hit 380 MPH.
We built a lot more, in the 70s. I remain very proud of FORD and the old shop for pushing an FE that hard. These SOHC were injected. We have 1 spare SOHC from this very smae program. I did an essay on it elsewhere
There are more trucks, and also, a wicked fast EDSEL, with a 427, that flew off road.
We also wo PIKES PEAK a lot, for FORD, Google the UNSER Talladega Pikes Peak winner, with a stroked BOSS 429. We worked hand in hand with SMOKEY YUNICK on that program. I met him, in our FORD shop. He did side work under contract then. He was not all CHEVY. He liked the BOSS 429 architecture a lot. So did DYNO DON, who I helped, and crewed for
Thanks
HMS Tom
PS On your break in? It is wise, for us, to bed in brakes and clutches. Listen to McLeod.....if you are easy on the disc, and heat cycle it a few times, and let it bed in, of fit by friction, it WILL last longer, as will brakes. Bedding in brake linings, is kind of like curing the adhesives, and, hardening the compounded materials, I thought everybody knew that but the manufacturers know how to help the materials last longer.
On NITRO, we even bed in the powdered metal discs, by seasoning them with a few runs, then the get harder, you rockwell test them, make notes in the tune up book, turn the discs, and compare the clutch pack recession after
On the break in, we also let the mill come in to it's own in no huge rush. It is cheap insurance for a nice long life, But we all do our thing. So side step the clutch at a high launch if it makes you smile. If you hurt it, heal it
Thanks
Last tidbit
Spoke to Don the Snake yesterday. The SHELBY Super Snake is alive. They fired it up. It sounds bitchin. I have a video. DON himself put the engine in, 2 times because teh candlestick was 030 too long. For new guys, a candle stick is the drive shaft in a Funny car or Dragsters. Just a tough, splined shaft. The SOHC has an ENDERLE shower head injector(HAT, but the side nozzles are for show, and blocked. She has a plate under the bug catcher for 8 HAT nossles. Hat nozzles spray fuel on top of the blowers rotors. He did the fuel system himself. The port nozzles are key, and they got set to cackle, and do burn out
She has a blank in her. To new guys, this means, she has no high speed bypass jet in the barrel valve. On a Drag mechaincal injection set up, with 8 hat nozzles, and 8 port nozzles, the PILL has a small hole in it to lean her out at high RPM. The bigger the hole, the leaner. One little step, a mere 010 change, can melt the entire engine down and destroy the motor in the blink of an eye, at high speed. Running a BLANK, says, we have her nice and rich,,,or nice and FAT. FAT, means more fuel. More fuel means, more flame. More flame means,,,,get ready for a bitchin show !
Don set the mag at a safe, 40 degree BTDC. Let's see....no plan to do a burnout 2 weeks from now. The debut will be a secret, as this time comes, email me and we can maybe meet. Today, Rodders Journal is doing a full photo shoot. Started yesterday.
Snake says he raced for 50 years, and we tried to talk him in to driving again. He is so cool, he said thanks, such a cool dude, but he said, I have 3 daughters and I am in to many other things these days. He also said, OUCH, to how much finishing this engine cost him....LOL
He knows us through Don Long who did the chassis, then and now. Don Long had about 5 of us help finish the car over about a 1 year period. I was very happy when LONG handed me the new Snake Crew T Shirts they made. Long siad, here Tom, have 2 T Shirts, you earned them. Well, modestly, I was thrilled just to touch any pert of this bad old beast again. So was Terry, Paul, and the guys who help Don Long.
Have the Grand American Roadster show this weekend. Thank God, we were blessed with a clas win, each year, for the last 7 years. Hope to get the CHIEF a 2016 trophy out there in Pomona
See you cats next weekend
Testing a Heritage Funny car this wekend too
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There are more trucks, and also, a wicked fast EDSEL, with a 427, that flew off road.
Thanks
HMS Tom
So I had to google the Flying Edsel. I love Edsel's.
Sure enough I found one flying through the air. Way Kool. 8) 8) 8)
This one says 1980 Baja 500 and 1000.
Same one Tom?
(http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q128/ScotiaFE/HMS/w8I1xtA8TAiLXiX9fCa3_10152553624733411_zpsa97c6ggs.jpg) (http://s135.photobucket.com/user/ScotiaFE/media/HMS/w8I1xtA8TAiLXiX9fCa3_10152553624733411_zpsa97c6ggs.jpg.html)
http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/03/galaxia-de-la-baja-off-roading-in-style/
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Maybe there should be a new Child Board started, for Tom's stories? Where people can go if they have a couple hours to kill.
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Ha Ha ! please man, take a chill pill? Maybe if you do not like our old gang sharing true facts about our race programs, be it me sharing what Bobby,, age 84, Dave, 81, Bruce, 69, Dan 68, and Willie, me, and the rest, getting together to recall our team, or the vendors we used helping, guys also well into the 60s....and up in the 80s, how about you just skip it and do you own work?
We are helping a real nice FORD man tune his Hot Rod, how about you suggesting how you would dial her in and why?
Please, say anything you want about the guys break in, tune up,fuel curve, how to dial her in, anything relevant?
I love it when anybody shares any race related tid bit. They help me think about maybe helping build a better mouse trap? If you dislike it so passionately? Read another analysis...? Add content that is germaine? Share your tune up book? Or maybe just share your biggest wins, best ETs, and past Teams,,,,,,it is all good man...
Just doing what a lot of members asked us to do, share the old tricks, methods and wins
I dont care if you disagree with how we dial stuff, in, we all share and learn here...me too?
I don't know what your issues are but please, lets meet face to face some day, laugh, go fast and be gentleman.
None of us know you, or a few more trouble makers..haha teasin back. So maybe you are the head of R and D for Roush, or just as capable, that is awesome,,,,show us what ya know? Or maybe just share how you'd skin the onion? Its all cool?
But I ask you a simple question CJ, get on a plane, or train...lol come meet all of us, and just repeat all of the stuff you claimed here, and there? Ok? Man to man, on video if you wish? In front of our guys, and all of us will show you, we mean no harm, and tell no lies as an old group of pals.
I was told you are a good wrench on imports, that is just awesome, share the tricks you use to make these cars reliable, and long lasting. I have a Crew Man, who is a real good LEXUS Tech. We change heads on blown fuel HEMIS, and talk LEXUS reclls, tune up tricks, and so on. It is very interesting, and some of it does translate to FORDS, and race cars. Especially the precision, and attention to detail aspects
Thanks
Grand American Roadster Show, and Fuel Funny cars for me
Doug, you have some nice cars, lets just do good work and leave the,,,dumb stuff,,,in the garbage where it belings
Childs board....ha ha...I dont hve kids...nor do my bros
Be well big guy....we are better than this bickering BS. Would you mend a fence and feel better if I, well, you love the Mickey Thompson, Ongais Funny car. Our Team helped that team, I know Danny, and knew Mickey well. I know Amos
How about we get you a signed picture of that bad blue Funny car some day? Then would ya just mellow?
Amos tuned it, Danny has a shop by us, how about some little gesture? And you can return the kindness somehow...
I am assembling a 427 SOHC today. All original block and heads. MAG blower intake. SK crank.
I am in a wonderful mood due to it. I got a call that a few guys were trying the stuff again, so email me if you have some pressing issues...cool? Every daylight minute I type, costs m,y family income. And some of the BS on 54 affected our jobs. We had to explain these weird phone calls and emails to friends, the secretaries, and so on.
Howie?
The EDSELS were very very fast
The younger engine men got to build off of the blueprint and dyno sheets from the older guys
This car was fiberglass for a while, on a tube chassis, light, and 4 of us did FE's with each and every NASCAR 427 trick in the boo
This boy had some wicked fast race gas 427s,,,,,High Risers, Tunnel ports, a stroked FE or two and it was wicked fast. Full blown race gas engines, with over 13 to 1 in some cases and long, well tested, NASCAR race winning camshafts, Dual quads in 1 class, KENDIGS in others(1000CFM plus)
The point was this. A lot of us rose to the occasion to win this class, because everybody felt the EDSELS got a raw deal. We mostly felt they were a solid car, with many modern features, and great engines, drive trains, transmission and strength
So we did a lot of trick FEs for EDSELS, including guuted Drag Cars
This is a later version, you can tell because it has jackman wheels. The 71-4 Edsel team that won the most, used know offs, ANSEN 15by10s and a full floater. I made a lot of full floater parts since we provided so many to Holman, Ford and teams backed by FORD
This car had a lot of Mill and Lathe work in it for special X style parts
Howie, after you explained that you have been a machinist for decades, I smiled because you know how long it takes to make one off, axles, snouts, Axle hubs that are broached, the size changes after head treat, the special brackets needed to adapt full blown big disc disc brakes, and imagine all of the chassis fabrication
This chassis, was a step forward, from a EDSEL heavy chassis.
What we did on those was just like a 60s stock car. On a huge cast stell surface plate, we had fixtures for every tab, and every pick up point
So you would gusset some, lighten other parts, box others, like a arms, add a bunch of suspension travel, 3 shocks per front wheel, a DOM and cromoly cage. beefier trailing arms, longer travel springs, and the rest that you see,
Notice all of the halogen lights pointed down track?
This was a quiet set of tricks we also had. Bad light could kill you, or get you tangled up in somebody elses mess.
The tricks there, were up to 10, hi power lights, pointed and aimed, to make about 1/2 mile ahead bright enough to maintain well over 100 MPH, up to about 150 MPH on long stretches,,,
Thanks for the question. I have a feeling that you and me would be fine pulling 12 hour shifts making race parts for FORD...
The later EDSELS had full tube chassis', made of Chromoly. Total weight was slashed to go even faster. This EDSEL was wicked fast and had some fast fast FE's,,,and I cn prove, in a court...lol haha no thanks, that I had hands on its key pieces....
And I can show you how to re do the engines, because I alone have our DYNO and BUILD sheet library. At home. Hidden below my FE Mustang, that Stroppe drove and liked a lot
fastest Mustang around, back then..LOL Due to free FORD race parts ! LOL Not one stolen piece !! ha ha ha
back to Doug
All is cool
Let's just be racers and engineers
Nice fastback
Next question please
See you cats next week please
Thanks Howie,,,,you are a stand up good man I see.....I will help you some day, some how
I get WD deals on a lot of stuff,,,free stuff too
we'll chat
You keep up the good worknow
Tenth tolerance man,,,,,sweatin the 0001s as always !
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Thanks for the question. I have a feeling that you and me would be fine pulling 12 hour shifts making race parts for FORD...
It's great to see you can still do a back shift. I gave that up long ago now.
I have a hard enough time out in the shed. :P
All the best Tom.
Apologizes to Paul for taking over his post.
Looking forward to seeing some video. :)
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Right back at ya Boss, see the amended above......tell DOUG all is cool,,,go buy a mess of booze and send me the bill or something hahahaha
JAY,,,bless you for having such a steel trap mind,,,,and a stainless steel back bone, and drive....and that red hot candle that drives you to win....and push the envelope
Big news pending
Bigger big news on the prayer list
See ya
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Howie, not to worry. This has been entertaining. I'm reading up on the best procedure to start an engine for the first time. I have a few questions:
- With a roller cam is the usual advise to let the engine run for 20 minutes at 2,000 RPM relevant?
- I have primed the engine in the past week from the distributor, and I've turned it a few times with the starter but without spark plugs to cycle the water pump and oil, how critical is it to re-prime it before starting it (i.e. is it strongly recommended to pull the dizzy and turn the pump)?
- I've read a suggestion to pre-set the advance by manually turning the engine to TDC, then advance it 13 degrees, then with the #1 plug in hand turn on the ignition and rotate the cap until it sparks the #1 plug - the idea is to get the advance close before we try to fire it.
Any other specific advise? I'm happy with the plug gaps (all at 0.040), fuel pressure, fuel level in the bowls, the jets are down two sizes to 76 in the front and 84 in the rear, and the battery is fully charged. We will let it run until it reaches full temp and go over it for leaks before setting the idle, and we have an O2 sensor for a preliminary check. Once we are happy with that we will run it around the block a couple of times before we put the hood on it. Oh yes, I will roll it out of the garage and have a water hose with pressure and 3 fire extinguishers on hand.
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Roller cams do not require a break-in like a flat tappet cam, so you can start the engine and let it idle right away. Over the course of the first hour or two of running, you should be varying the load on the engine somewhat, so running it up and down the RPM range while holding it at various speeds for a few minutes is a good idea. Also, driving at various speeds in the different gears will help with the break-in.
Getting the timing set correctly is important because you want to have the engine fire right away. I would recommend a timing light. I would pull the plugs and spin the engine with the starter while watching the timing marks on the balancer with a timing light. Adjust the distributor until you have 10-12 degrees while cranking. Replace the plugs and the engine should fire right up when you go to start it.
As long as you've pre-oiled once I don't think you need to do that again. Especially if you are spinning the engine to set the timing, you should see oil pressure on the gauge. Once you've got that, you are safe to fire.
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As far as setting initial, I've had good luck just centering up the rotor for #1 but I add more advance.... more like 15-20 degrees on the balancer.
I figure it'll crank easy enough with that cold and with no load too much advance won't hurt.
I've never tried Jay's method, it sounds legit, but I don't know that I'd need it.
Ohh and Tom, a "child board" is a smaller offshoot of a particular forum (there are several here on FE Power).
Your stories are interesting if the reader has the time to sift through the 98% in order to find the little 2% of a gem that resides in it.
Brevity is king my man..... use it.
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Getting the timing set correctly is important because you want to have the engine fire right away. I would recommend a timing light. I would pull the plugs and spin the engine with the starter while watching the timing marks on the balancer with a timing light. Adjust the distributor until you have 10-12 degrees while cranking. Replace the plugs and the engine should fire right up when you go to start it.
That is a MUCH better suggestion. Disappointed that I didn't think of it.
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Howie, not to worry. This has been entertaining. I'm reading up on the best procedure to start an engine for the first time. I have a few questions:
- With a roller cam is the usual advise to let the engine run for 20 minutes at 2,000 RPM relevant?
- I have primed the engine in the past week from the distributor, and I've turned it a few times with the starter but without spark plugs to cycle the water pump and oil, how critical is it to re-prime it before starting it (i.e. is it strongly recommended to pull the dizzy and turn the pump)?
- I've read a suggestion to pre-set the advance by manually turning the engine to TDC, then advance it 13 degrees, then with the #1 plug in hand turn on the ignition and rotate the cap until it sparks the #1 plug - the idea is to get the advance close before we try to fire it.
Any other specific advise? I'm happy with the plug gaps (all at 0.040), fuel pressure, fuel level in the bowls, the jets are down two sizes to 76 in the front and 84 in the rear, and the battery is fully charged. We will let it run until it reaches full temp and go over it for leaks before setting the idle, and we have an O2 sensor for a preliminary check. Once we are happy with that we will run it around the block a couple of times before we put the hood on it. Oh yes, I will roll it out of the garage and have a water hose with pressure and 3 fire extinguishers on hand.
If it was mine,
- Stop turning it over when it is sitting, especially with the starter. At best, it doesn't help anything, at worst, you are wiping assembly lube off of things and not replacing it with oil because of the low starter RPM
- Set initial timing so the rotor points to the #1 plug at 20 degree mark. Close enough to fire and then set the timing after you do more important things
- I would double check firing order before firing it, because if you screwed a wire pair up, you may chase timing settings because it's in your head, when its really a spark plug wire problem (just trying to forecast potential issues)
- I would fill float bowls through vents if you use a mechanical fuel pump. Just makes things easier, if electric, just let it run before crank
- Initial timing should likely be HIGHER than required for first fire to keep headers cool, with no load it can be VERY high and not hurt a thing, so no worries
- No need to run in at 2000, just fire it, check for oil pressure immediately, then look for leaks, then let run at some mild rpm, 1000-ish to 1500 and focus on cooling system especially if you didn't drill the thermostat. It will likely raise up and down, and then gulp a bunch in as the thermostat opens. Fill it about 2 inches from the top and put the cap on after that and watch for coolant leaks
- When that is done, idle it down, set initial timing, then adjust carb, then drive away !!!!
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Here is an important one that we have done for decades. The cooling system on your FORD is designed to function as the platform moves. The break in has higher that normal friction, thus heat. The mean/average oil temperatures will elevate before they reach post break in equilibrium, The rings, pistons and cylinder walls will has break in friction as the parts burnish in to a form fit, imagine honing then steeling a hi carbon blade, knife, and ponder how the drag and friction diminishes as the edge is refined to perfection.
We are big on using at least one electric leaf blower, and often one of the big, 3 foot diameter caged electric fans, like you see in the front of the Dragster, Flopper and related Pro Pits for several reasons.
Moving significant air across the radiator helps the engine slowly come up to a safe oil temperature, and coolant temp, given normal ambient air temperatures...you know...55 to 70/80 Deg F
If we light during a very cold day, I attach a pre heater to the oil pan, plug it in, walk away and wait for the oil temp to register in the triple digits at least. Depends on the oil and class. On a car with a blower, running 60 straight weight, before we make a run with straight 70 W, is wise usually
You do not have t spin your tappets, true, but I like more, not less, splash from the rods, flinging away well on the underside of the pistons to pull away heat, and, to bath the cylinder walls well, and, to flush away the micro fine particles, sheering off, microscopically, the fine edges of the honing job, the high spots of the pistons surface finish, the ring pack, the rod side surfaces and of course, and honing stone residues, AND, I hope to build up the post break in cylinder glaze. This glaze, hardens to cause a nicer surface finish, that has less friction, and more seal potential. Biggest thing for me is, cooling the pistons by drawing away the much higher temps inside the combustion chambers
As she runs in, I use a 2nd electric lawn blower, to wash cooler air across the heads and headers,,,,a minute on the left, a minute on the right, then kneel down, and run air across the oil pan, and bottom and sides of the block
This also helps keep the CO2 and exhaust gas smell moving back and away from the work space
Of course, have a crew guy, helper, sitting in the car, using hand signals, to watch the coolant temp, oil pressure, oil temp, charging system, amps, volts,, 1 guy can do this fine, you just run around, up front, inside, around, up down
Every few minutes, of course, walk out behind her, 10-20 feet, smell the exhaust, glad you have an O2 meter, but listen for the compression balance. Listen fr the pulses to be even. Listen for a nice even purr. If it sounds nasty, uneven, rough, or just, jagged? We call it, chipped teeth-ish, I shut it off....slow...cool her down and check everything
We compression balance everything. Always have. To the tenth of a c.c. . The pay off is the exhaust note, sound, and scope results. We scope stuff old school too. If all 8 pulses, and a cylinder balance test(post break in of course) is all even Steven...you get an 'Atta Boy'
Lots more, but I watch the vaccum,,,manifold vac....turn the idle up for splash, then I move it every 2-3 minutes. Easy, just move the idle with your helper. Give him hand signs. Finger up, means, a little more RPM. Finger down, less. Finger waving a little up, then a little down,,,means, modulate the RPM
Many OEM re-builders, and race teams, modulate the RPM on break in, so does my gang. In most settings.....the internal spray and splash pattern gets to change and wax then wane, if you rev her up a tad, down, then up and down. Harmonics and resonant frequencies are a very real aspect of an engine. Ring rotation is a designed in parameter. Modulating the RPM can coax the rings to migrate more than less, and sometimes induce valve rotation
FE's, truck style, and many flat tappet mills, had designed in Valve and lifter coefficients
Making the valve train full Drag, defeated some of this. For endurance racing FE's, for FORD, many victories were quietly helped by not defeating the durability design aspects of the OEM engineering.
And for the oil mod devotees, we would have lost a lot of endurance races had the oil, and it's ability to pull away valve, piston and chamber heat and coolant heat BTU's, been reduced so much. A lot of oil migrating across a head, takes away a lot of heat that robs power, and pushes key component temp higher, which we don't want.
Move air across it
DEFNITELY Bed in the clutch, just like we bed in brake shoes, or pads. Light, cycled uses, is cheap insurance for a better heat treat, and higher finished rockwell hardness
Bed in, or heat cycling, brakes and clutches(organic) cures the adhesives, and, adds integrity to the friction faces, and, fits in the steel rotor, disc, drum, etc
Last thing
We usually have the car in the air, on a 4 post lift, finger lift, or jack stands, good ones, or on the cars lift stands(Rails and floppers, have the trick lifts with the long handles, they go over center)
If you idle her, then slide her in gear, slowly engage the clutch, drag the brakes a bit, disengage, drag the brakes until the wheels stop, this is also nice
Remember, if you are idling her, and the wheel speed gets up there, and the speedo is showing some MPH....be VERY light on the brakes because they will grab and catch with a light brake input. Don't want to shock the car, with a lurch of the wheels stopping with a thud....well we don't
Please have a blast
Feel the valve covers by hand, hunt and feel for any leak any where, goes without saying
and heat cycle it to be nice to her.
ALSO, we have a VP race gas fuel room for the cars, 3 grades of gas in 55 Gallong drums, depending on the car. I send a runner to get us 5 gallon jugs of the best pump premium too. CHEVRON, 76 and SO Cal Fuels because they sponsor the Pomona Track. I add around 2 tablespoons of Marvel Mystery Oil in 5 gallons for any break in. We have added this top cylinder oil to hot rods, on pump gas, for 45 or more years. No valve seat recession issues, nice guide life, nicer ring pack life, and it seems to be a little help. Red can. Always have a oil squirt gun full of the red stuff too, nice general lube, light penetrates, smells good, doesn't hurt paint, etc
She will break in soon enough and then you can ask her to 'Pay the Rent" and if she fought ya
You please go 'Beat on the brat' (Ramones) (Kids joke out here,,,never smacked any gal)
Nice work
In a few weeks, maybe please get us a video sample of you' Riding her hard, and puttin' her away wet'
Off to Pomona
Manana, rat a tat tat tat...Blown fuel testing, yes, on Dads day,,,,
Thanks and bless you all for being such fine FORD men and women