FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: fairlanegt427 on June 06, 2016, 08:33:40 PM
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its just a dumb question i am going to ask. any of the engine builders in here ever seen or done all 8 sleeves in a motor? i have never had to sleeve one personally but i am just wondering if it is possible and or can it be done?
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They do it for aluminum blocks, don't see why it wouldn't work for an iron block.
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Old time drag racer Carl Holbrook used to sleeve all eight holes in his Cobra Jet blocks. As I recall from a 25+ year ago conversation with Carl, he did alternate cylinders (two per side) to minimize stresses in the deck before doing the other two per side. I seem to recall that he furnace brazed the sleeves to the block and then re-machined everything square again. He did this with brand new blocks!
That's a lot of work, but the sleeves are stronger and more stable than the native cast iron block material. The benefit was better ring seal at high output, with a respectable HP gain for drag racing.
It all depends on how hard you want to work to edge out the other guy! Another famous guy - Ray Paquet knows all about that :D
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Danger, Will Robinson! Eight sleeves in a stock block is asking for trouble. Typical failure is a crack between the bores at the deck, because after boring oversize for the sleeve there is not enough material between them at the deck anymore. They crack with heat cycles and then leak coolant. Been there, done that, and seen other people do it to. Wes tried this on his Poor Man's 427 and I believe he had the same issue, although maybe he will chime in here on it.
Furnace brazing may solve this problem although I don't know of anyone who has put a significant number of street miles on a furnace brazed block. I think those were mostly for race only applications.
A single sleeve, or multiple sleeves that are not next to each other, will be just fine, and last forever. Just my opinion, but as a general rule of thumb, use the thinner sleeve sizes, and never sleeve two adjacent bores.
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Old time drag racer Carl Holbrook used to sleeve all eight holes in his Cobra Jet blocks. As I recall from a 25+ year ago conversation with Carl, he did alternate cylinders (two per side) to minimize stresses in the deck before doing the other two per side. I seem to recall that he furnace brazed the sleeves to the block and then re-machined everything square again. He did this with brand new blocks!
That's a lot of work, but the sleeves are stronger and more stable than the native cast iron block material. The benefit was better ring seal at high output, with a respectable HP gain for drag racing.
It all depends on how hard you want to work to edge out the other guy! Another famous guy - Ray Paquet knows all about that :D
I remember the same thing from Carl. And a side note, he had B C do the furnace brazing. He IS capable of good work, there's just too much crookedness going with it.
KS
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im not a engine builder but i bought a 390 that had all eight cylinders sleeved.believe it or not i ran it for 15 or 16 years hard on the street with no issues till a screw ended up going down the carb and busted the sleve in the no 7 cylinder
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Danger, Will Robinson! Eight sleeves in a stock block is asking for trouble.
Didn't mean to imply that this is something to do for a typical street build :o It's stupid expensive and fraught with risk. This only made sense to a guy like Carl who at the time had a good supply of cheap CJ race blocks to play with.
Nowadays I'd only try this as a last resort, with a damaged or worn-out numbers-matching block, and with thin sleeves. I think furnace-brazing would be the only way to reliably support the deck in this situation. I bet that a block done this way would run reliably on the street.
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Thin wall sleeves
Light press fit (not the .003+ that some guys use)
Careful deburr of sleeve and top of machined bore
Smooth pulling fixture installation (not a BFH and a block of wood...)
Step register at bottom of bore
A tight press fit, a BFH, and adjoining thick wall sleeves will split them between bores and things get really difficult from there. I have a fully machined customer block that has a split between sleeves which a prior shop tried to repair by installing a pin in the deck. Pressure checks and looks perfectly OK. Gasket surface machines perfectly flat. We have not been able get it to hold a head gasket. Tried Fel-Pro race, Fel-Pro passenger car, Cometic - all fail at the same spot. Block is available for sale - customer went another route. I think the best option for saving this one might be adjoining interlocked top stepped sleeves like used on aluminum blocks... Are ya feeling lucky? ::)
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I had a pretty good idea that it isn't a very good idea. but was wondering if the sleeving technology has "caught up" with todays engine machining . But obviously it is still risky. it is just me thinking too much, trying to one up the other guy.
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The C3AE Top Oiler block in my blown car has 8 sleeves. I injured number 1 & 5 bores pretty bad, and it had a few more that sonic'd well below .100.
So far so good. I must admit I was half way into an aftermarket block, as far as expense goes, by the time I was done with it.
I'll let y'all know if/when she lets go.
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when mine let go antifreeze started running out my exhaust pipe,i pulled the heads and intake,found a beat up screw on top of the no 7 piston and saw the sleeve was split.but i really did run it for over 15 years before this happened.
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wow i feel like i am getting the full spectrum of sleeving advice i like it. i think i am just going to keep it the way it is. clean it up and just live with what i have.