FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Yellow Truck on May 01, 2016, 12:37:18 PM
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I'm looking at the flywheel and clutch - I bought new ARP flywheel bolts that will need to be checked for depth based on some scary posts here and elsewhere, but I'm also looking at the clutch.
The flywheel is a McLeod that came off the old 410 (I removed the counter balance), but the clutch is a Chinese piece that was originally on it with the 360. It and the pressure plate are in good shape, but I can't find the clutch to flywheel bolts and was looking around for new ones. I see on the McLeod site most of the clutches are listed at 400 HP max.
Two questions - what do you use for clutch bolts (old ones were of unknown origin, so buying new ones is probably a good idea), and if I'm going to change the clutch, now is the time to do it. Do I trust this part with my new beast - 445?
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You can use ARP pressure plate bolts.
Actually, most of the McLeod pieces are minimum of 400-425 hp. I would go to a dual friction disc for the new engine. If you want to go McLeod (and I would recommend using a McLeod disc as some of the manufacturers vary on clutch disc thickness), I'd use a 500 series disc.
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Not familiar with a "dual friction" clutch. I've looked for a decent explanation about how this is different the the clutch I have, but all I can find is that the flywheel side seems to be a different material than the pressure plate side.
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You have dual friction plates with a steel plate between them.
Like a multi disc clutch in a auto trans or a motorcycle
so you got more friction surface on a given diameter clutch
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Thanks, probably over much for a pickup.
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I think he is actually referring to a single disc clutch that uses two types of friction material. One side will be a normal organic "rag" material while the other will be some sort of Kevlar or ceramic (depending on the brand). The combination gives you the smooth release and grab of an organic disc along with some of the high temperature durability and grip of the other material.
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"Thanks, probably over much for a pickup."
I don't know about that Paul.
All it is is a way to connect engine to trans and from what I hear the pedal pressure can be less with a dual disc and still retain the coupling power of a heavily sprung clutch.
For instance I run a McLeod super street set up. It is a beast of a clutch. I'm a big dude so no prob for me. But every now and then in traffic I might wish for less of a push.
I'm going to look into it (the dual disc) for my mustang.
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I think he is actually referring to a single disc clutch that uses two types of friction material. One side will be a normal organic "rag" material while the other will be some sort of Kevlar or ceramic (depending on the brand). The combination gives you the smooth release and grab of an organic disc along with some of the high temperature durability and grip of the other material.
Oh my bad not reading properly. It said dual fricton i thought about dual disc ::)
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Hah, me too.
What I get for reading at work. ::)
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Yes, dual friction disc. In this case, organic on one side, sintered bronze/aluminum on the other side.
In the "good ole days" you made a clutch clamp harder by adding heavier springs to the pressure plate. Clamping forces were in the 3000-3500 lb range. These days, your clamping forces are 1800-2400 lbs, but the capacity of the clutch is manipulated by the disc material.
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Marc,
From your post I gather you are running a McLeod Super Street Pro, which according to McLeod is a dual friction clutch as described by Barry. You say it is a bit of a beast? I am also a big guy, but an overly stiff pedal is tedious.
This engine will put about 1/3 more torque and twice the horsepower to the clutch. I did find the old pressure plate to flywheel bolts, and the old clutch is in good condition, but changing it out later would be unpleasant. The current clutch has no brand identification (says PHT 200 Made in China). It worked fine, just a bit of shudder which I understand is a characteristic of the NP 435.
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Yes I am running the Super Street Pro.
My engine is 400hp/500tq.
It's prolly a bit over clutched HOWEVER, as you allude to, NP435s (reputation deserved or not) do chatter and mine does not.
I attribute that to the clutch. It may be the clamping force. It may be the new dual materials.
It's most likely a combination of both.
As far as the pedal pressure goes. I have driven it in stop and go traffic many, many days with no problem. My wife really can't drive it though.
Hope that helps.
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Thinking about a Centerforce clutch - they offer an easier pedal engagement with a high engagement pressure. Also a bit cheaper.
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FWIW, I get more complaints about Centerforce clutches than any other brand.....
I would put a 500 series McLeod disc with your pressure plate and call it a day.
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I'd be one of those to complain about the Centerforce's. Smoked it within one year and harder than heck to shift at high RPM. I suppose it might work in a daily driver or a truck, but certainly not the greatest for any hard play in my experience. Some guys have gotten them to live at the occasional track use, but many have not been so lucky.
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Thanks for the insights. Won't go buy the Centerforce.
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Brent,
This may be a dumb question, but the 500 series is just the disk. Would you put that disk in the existing assembly, or is it your intention to suggest I get the whole kit (which I assume is the Super Street Pro)?
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Here's what McLeod recommends for your truck.
Right off of their selector.
https://www.mcleodracing.com/index.php/catalogsearch/advanced/result/?name=&description=&short_description=&sku=&price%5Bfrom%5D=&price%5Bto%5D=&make=Ford&v_model=F-100%20Pickup&year=1974&engine=6.4L%20(390ci)%20V8
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If your pressure plate is in good shape, I would just buy a disc.
I wouldn't go by the selector, it doesn't know which flywheel you have (some are not dual pattern) or which bellhousing you have....
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If your pressure plate is in good shape, I would just buy a disc.
I wouldn't go by the selector, it doesn't know which flywheel you have (some are not dual pattern) or which bellhousing you have....
Brent, I thought my pressure plate was dual pattern.
It was a while ago and I don't remember for sure.
Am I wrong about that?
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I will be politically correct and cautious about how I state this.
Centerforce is junk.
I have had three customer vehicles now that have had unexplainable and unfixable vibration issues. All were repaired once I replaced the Centerforce clutch. The ring of weights on these apparently found a "happy place" off center, and they caused an imbalance and vibration. You would push the clutch in and sometimes they'd center up and it would drive nice and smooth. Next shift and the vibration came back. You could see the off-center wear pattern on the fingers and on the side of the throwout bearing on one of them.
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If your pressure plate is in good shape, I would just buy a disc.
I wouldn't go by the selector, it doesn't know which flywheel you have (some are not dual pattern) or which bellhousing you have....
Thanks for that. It saves me a small fortune. I'll replace the throwout at the same time - it looks a little beaten up.
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Barry I always thought that the weight deal was just a gimmick.
Thanks for the info.
Paul, I'll be real interested to see how your old clutch and flywheel do with a new, modern plate.
Hope it does real well.
Good luck with it.
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I appreciate all the wisdom I find here. Marc, I am asking around for prices on the disc and throwout. As soon as you cross the border things get expensive. The McLeod Super Street Pro is $435 on Summit, is $696 here. It is a relief to go with just the disc and bearing.
I have to go to London next week and Seattle when I get back, so this will now sit until June. Sigh - not a record I'm sure, but it is a year right now.
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Forgot you're north of the border.
Yeah that's a big hit.
Have fun in London. Lotsa good pubs ;)
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If your pressure plate is in good shape, I would just buy a disc.
I wouldn't go by the selector, it doesn't know which flywheel you have (some are not dual pattern) or which bellhousing you have....
Brent, I thought my pressure plate was dual pattern.
It was a while ago and I don't remember for sure.
Am I wrong about that?
It's the flywheel I'm speaking of. Some are just drilled for an 11" Long pattern. Some are just drilled for 11.5/12". Some are drilled for both.
The Centerforce pressure plate is really just a gimmick. Their plate is essentially a Luk or Sachs plate that you can buy at Autozone, with their "counterweight" system added to it. Sometimes the weights work. Sometimes they don't. They seem to cause premature engagement, especially on lighter cars and guys end up removing the weights....then you're back to an Autozone clutch.
RAM and McLeod are it in my opinion when clutches are discussed.
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I have to go to London next week and Seattle when I get back, so this will now sit until June. Sigh - not a record I'm sure, but it is a year right now.
Hey, why not just order the stuff from Summit when you're in Seattle? They have super quick shipping, and even if you had it overnighted, it would be much cheaper than you mentioned for your country. Is there some sort of issue with taking it back across the border with you?
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I have to go to London next week and Seattle when I get back, so this will now sit until June. Sigh - not a record I'm sure, but it is a year right now.
Hey, why not just order the stuff from Summit when you're in Seattle? They have super quick shipping, and even if you had it overnighted, it would be much cheaper than you mentioned for your country. Is there some sort of issue with taking it back across the border with you?
I had the same thought as Doug. In fact I think I'd be loading up as much as I could carry lol.
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Thanks guys, I usually do get stuff sent to me in the states by Summit, but sometimes you need to be hit on the head with the obvious.
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I found an NOS 11.5 truck clutch and it has a light pedal and seems to clamp just fine. Not saying it is the best, just throwing out another option.
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Funny i am reading this and dont care one way the other.I have a center force dual friction set up. Car is 3100 lbs without me in it. Off the dyno at 580 hp .clutch has gone through 3 engines. And 9 years.. It has over 40.000 miles on it. It will still light the tires up in 3rd gear. So i guess i just got lucky.
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I hear ya, but trucks with 33 to 38ish tires have a little bit different physics involved.