FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: HolmanMoodyStroppeGang on April 30, 2016, 07:13:05 PM
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Hi guys
Many of us wish we could be at Beaver but we kind of debuted a car I have been very quiet about for a while,
Please check it out. This car recalls the Stroppe car we had a cammer in way back when, that was too fast, then got banned after practice. I will say one thing about this car, it has a race engine in it, like we did then, and since, and this old FORD is F A S T.......!!
Also, the collection acquired Bat Mobile 10 and that's me getting ready to light her. Barris authorized 10 special continuation cars and this one is fast. My kid brother drove it to the show. He gets paid to drive this down Pacific Coast Highway? We estimate that thousands of people wanted a picture by this car and it was a blast. Kind of hard to keep people from touching it which we have to stay on guard for. Has a big stout Rat in it. The original, with an FE, went for 4.2 Million a while back. This is the latest acquisition and all I can say here is, Batmobiles are not cheap...LOL !
I will do a Biikini's and Nitro post soon. Made a lot of noise and there were a ton of pretty ladies there. We light the fuel stuff backed in to the tanning part of a big car show by a surf beach. So the ladies get all wound up and that is fun.
We fired the Beaver Hunter,,,,on 95% nitro. John Force got his license to drive fuel cars in Beaver Hunter 2. We may acquire the Beaver Hunter, who knows, maybe bring it to Beaver some day. That would be hilarious...darn thing went way over 200 MPH in 65
One picture is of Don Long, Tommy IVO and me last Saturday at a chassis shop. IVO is just the kindest, funniest, coolest guy. The plan is to show him the big shop soon. Awesome man, go to his website, it is awesome. One of his old short wheel base rails sold for $600,000 recently. A wealthy collector grabbed it, then donated it to a museum for the write off. IVO has a lot of cool things to share about Cammers on Nitro that he raced. For another day.
Good luck from all of us to everybody at Beaver. Hope the records fall and of course, please have a safe and fun race
Thanks now,
Tom
Busy
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Tom,
Great shots, thanks for posting! Btw TV Tom Ivo's book is really entertaining too. That '64 Galaxie Lorenzen car looks like an excellent resto.
Growing up in SoCal, I remember the yellow Helms Bakery trucks (behind you in the Batmobile) that used to deliver fresh bread and pastries to our neighborhoods back in the 50's and 60's. When those panel trucks would get a zillion miles on them Helms would sell them off; my cousin bought a worn-out '56 Chevy panel truck from them, put new paint and a new engine in and drove it another zillion miles!
Bruce
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For a few years before he passed away I would talk occasionally with Earl Wade. He was following my SOHC builds on the FE Forum (before I started this web site), and would give me some engine advice on the builds. Anyway, one day we were talking about the old days, and Earl told me that in late spring 1964 Fred Lorenzen's Galaxie with the SOHC went to Daytona for some practice testing, and ran well over 180 MPH (I think Earl said 187?). Apparently it was several MPH faster than any other car had ever run there, including the hemi cars that were dominating NASCAR that year. Unfortunately, the powers at NASCAR were so unnerved by the speed that they banned the SOHC for the remainder of the season, so Lorenzen's cammer Galaxie never got a chance to run.
My own personal take on this is that NASCAR held in their hands a golden age of engine development, and squashed it by effectively eliminating the SOHC from any NASCAR competition. Chrysler was threatening a DOHC hemi if NASCAR let the Ford run, and if I recall Oldsmobile also had a DOHC engine running in prototype form. Probably Ford would have had to go to a gear drive DOHC version of the FE to stay competitive, and of course per NASCAR rules they would have been required to build production car versions. Can you imagine the flight from pushrods to overhead cams starting in the mid 1960s? Think of the gold in the junkyards in the mid 1970s. I have always hated NASCAR for that decision...
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Great build on a great car! Yes nascar is really a screwed up mess trying to micro manage auto racing into a circus act.
Now and for many years they run only special built nascar spec engines which have no connection to what you can buy in a showroom. Is that progress??
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Very nice! Thanks Tom for the pics! It is about 30 years ago now that I was at a race talking about cammers and listening to a gent that worked for Goodyear. I still remember his take on this. He felt Goodyear put the bug in Bill France's ear that the cars were too fast. At least for the time 1964- Goodyear was worried about tires holding those lap speeds. 1964 was a deadly year for auto racing and Goodyear felt the speeds were outpacing the available tire and safety technology.
I agree that Nascar has lost it's way. The "golden years" for auto racing have passed IMHO.
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Re: "NASCAR held in their hands a golden age of engine development, and squashed it by effectively eliminating the SOHC from any NASCAR competition. "
Sadly that decision by NASCAR put the US Auto industry decades and particularly Ford behind the remainder of the worlds car companies that have OHC'd for years. Like Jay stated other US Mfgs were ready to OHC for NASCAR racing. "Win On Sunday Sell On Monday" would have had buyers coming into showrooms and saying: I want that OHV motor in my new car. Took four decades for Ford to OHV their primary V8 motors and the remainder of the US Auto industry still is pushroding.
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Doc (C5HM on the FE Forum) has repeatedly documented that the SOHC was never banned from NASCAR, but rather given a weight penalty that made it near impossible to run safely. Just to clear up that misconception.
And Tom, that engine has polished valve covers, polished timing cover, polished intake and a stock air cleaner assembly. Is that the way it was run back in '64? Because I recall you giving Doc a very hard time over him not using the correct OIL PAN on his '64. What gives?
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Dr. John is correct that in 1966 Ford was allowed the Sohc but with a 1 lbs. per cu/in penalty. 1964 the engine was submitted to Nascar but they refused to allow it to run. This is all 62 years ago now, the story that was related to me by a Ford engineer was that Ford purchased a hemi from Ray Nichols engineering after the 1964 Daytona 500. It was tested and produced 550 bhp. I am not sure but some HM documents show a 427 hi riser pretty damn close. Anyways this engineer did a calculation based on frontal area of the Plymouth and Galaxie and determined a 3.5 mph difference in favor of the Plymouth because of the smaller frontal area. So if one can transcend the 62 years it seems most of the advantage was the aerodynamics and not the hemi. Dr. John may have some documentation to substantiate this , all I have is memory. As a side note to this AJ Foyt was in second place with 25 miles left when the engine had a valve break. AJ was mad and switched to a Dodge. He ran the Firecracker at Daytona but later was back in a Ford. The Charlotte paper reported he was leary of the Dodge's lack of handling at that time.
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Here is a link to the other forum and the recent discussion on Nascar Ford intermediates where C5HM posted a couple copies of letters from Ford on this subject.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1461541817/Not+so
The first letter references and agrees with what Katz427 cited, that the 427 SOHC was initially not allowed, them allowed in 1966, but with the weight penalty making it unpractical. The second letter references the testing I think Jay talked with Earl Wade about, with the 180 mph top speed, and being 7 mph faster than the existing wedge 427 racecar.
I'm just glad documentation like this exists and is shared so we all can become the best educated FE fans on the internet.
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Doc (C5HM on the FE Forum) has repeatedly documented that the SOHC was never banned from NASCAR, but rather given a weight penalty that made it near impossible to run safely. Just to clear up that misconception.
To say it was never banned is not really correct, based on what I've been told by Earl Wade and others. The SOHC was not allowed in 1964 and 1965, regardless of what car it was in, or the vehicle weight; I don't think this was a case of NASCAR issuing a ban, but more of a non-response to Ford requests to run the engine. But it was effectively a ban nonetheless. It was of course legal to run an SOHC in 1966, but only in full size Galaxies, and with a weight penalty, which would have rendered the car uncompetitive.
If you've got a link to documentation that proves the SOHC was legal to run in 1964 or 1965, I'd like to see it - Jay
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I want to add a little side note to this if I may. A friend who was a Chrysler engineer always claimed that all of Petty's engines came directly from engineering in Detroit. He claimed he could hear them running on the dyno when he was testing.I thought this was odd,but when Petty went to Ford for 1969, a gent who worked installing dynamometers claimed he helped install a dyno at Petty's place in NC at the request of Ford Motor Company. He claimed the Petty's never had a dyno before that. The engineer left Chrysler back in 1979 and he claimed all of the small block Mopars had been built at engineering in Detroit right up until Petty switched to GM. I was at a gathering and Richard was a guest speaker. A team had just been caught 5 cu/in over the 358 limit. The host asked the now retired King to comment. Petty said he never really knew what size engine was in the car. Sometimes a 454 sometimes a 472 and a few times He thought they were in the 480 inch range. Petty then said "I just drove it"! So it was kind of hard to tell what parts were used in his engines. I had heard from another mechanic that worked around the race shops that Ray was upset that Ford accused him of a "ringer" hemi engine. HM thought it should have made more than 550 bhp. Supposedly Ray Nichols told John Holman that was a damn good horespower number for his hemi engines. I guess John was comparing it to the numbers HM was seeing with the SOHC.
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Doc (C5HM on the FE Forum) has repeatedly documented that the SOHC was never banned from NASCAR, but rather given a weight penalty that made it near impossible to run safely. Just to clear up that misconception.
To say it was never banned is not really correct, based on what I've been told by Earl Wade and others. The SOHC was not allowed in 1964 and 1965, regardless of what car it was in, or the vehicle weight; I don't think this was a case of NASCAR issuing a ban, but more of a non-response to Ford requests to run the engine. But it was effectively a ban nonetheless. It was of course legal to run an SOHC in 1966, but only in full size Galaxies, and with a weight penalty, which would have rendered the car uncompetitive.
If you've got a link to documentation that proves the SOHC was legal to run in 1964 or 1965, I'd like to see it - Jay
I never mentioned a year, just making the statement in general about the misconception of it being banned, but in re-reading your original post I see you were talking about the '64 season. Personally, I know nothing about the subject, but John seems to have plenty of documentation to back up what he says.
I'd still be interested in hearing about the details of this restoration, because there doesn't appear to be anything correct about the engine or engine compartment, at least from what I've seen of the many vintage pictures that John has posted, which is alot.
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Dr. John has some nice info on the Fe forum. Does explain some of what was a political war as well as engineering battle. Racing helped to sell cars back in the 1960's. I was born a Ford fan so I followed all of this as best I could. Over the years I have met some people who remeber different bits but it sure is nice to see the documents Dr. John has in his possesion. Unfortunately a lot of history is not researched anymore, and the people involved are all gone. I know Dr. John gets upset by the false history, but most of the scribes writing this stuff were not even born when all this happened. Today it is just a google search / right or wrong it gets printed.
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Here's a post over on the FE Forum that addresses the SOHC legality question. Not sure why C5HM won't post here; he sure has got a lot of good info. He also contradicts what Earl Wade told me a few years ago, about Lorenzen's SOHC Galaxie making test runs at Daytona in 1964 (sometime after the Daytona 500). Earl was pretty positive about that when I talked to him, but who knows...
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1462227051/CAMMER+in+NASCAR
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Funny thing, the memory. My Dad, at 82 now, remembers things that simply didn't happen, or didn't happen the way he remembers. My wife says the same thing about me ::)
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Loved that post by C5HM and the NASCAR "wars" of the 60s. I remember seeing pictures of the '66 Galaxies at Daytona and the way they massaged the aero! The car pictured is I believe the #29 HM '66 Galaxie driven by Jack Bowsher. Notice how far the front fenders have been lowered and/or sectioned! The lower headlight is about half exposed above the bumper, and the front bumper is "V'd". It was said they canted the windshields back too but that's harder to tell from the pics...
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Cool car Tom. You say it was a Stroppe car tho? I didn't realize Stroppe worked for Ford, I thought he was a Mercury guy..... I learn something every other day.
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I saw somewhere pics of a cast aluminium 64 nascar instrumet panel.
I think it was a repro.Any one who knows who makes them or have
a pic of a panel?
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Thanks from me and the guys, it has been a thrash lately, I did a reply but will post it soon.
I wanted to try to reply to the email first and thanks from all of us.
Just got to see all of this, I will let the guys know and forward it.
Next reveal SOHC 57 Ranchero
Big news pending on other things
Jay, you are the class of the field, our best
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Still waiting on the bikini post!!!!! ;D
Hi guys
Many of us wish we could be at Beaver but we kind of debuted a car I have been very quiet about for a while,
Please check it out. This car recalls the Stroppe car we had a cammer in way back when, that was too fast, then got banned after practice. I will say one thing about this car, it has a race engine in it, like we did then, and since, and this old FORD is F A S T.......!!
Also, the collection acquired Bat Mobile 10 and that's me getting ready to light her. Barris authorized 10 special continuation cars and this one is fast. My kid brother drove it to the show. He gets paid to drive this down Pacific Coast Highway? We estimate that thousands of people wanted a picture by this car and it was a blast. Kind of hard to keep people from touching it which we have to stay on guard for. Has a big stout Rat in it. The original, with an FE, went for 4.2 Million a while back. This is the latest acquisition and all I can say here is, Batmobiles are not cheap...LOL !
I will do a Biikini's and Nitro post soon. Made a lot of noise and there were a ton of pretty ladies there. We light the fuel stuff backed in to the tanning part of a big car show by a surf beach. So the ladies get all wound up and that is fun.
We fired the Beaver Hunter,,,,on 95% nitro. John Force got his license to drive fuel cars in Beaver Hunter 2. We may acquire the Beaver Hunter, who knows, maybe bring it to Beaver some day. That would be hilarious...darn thing went way over 200 MPH in 65
One picture is of Don Long, Tommy IVO and me last Saturday at a chassis shop. IVO is just the kindest, funniest, coolest guy. The plan is to show him the big shop soon. Awesome man, go to his website, it is awesome. One of his old short wheel base rails sold for $600,000 recently. A wealthy collector grabbed it, then donated it to a museum for the write off. IVO has a lot of cool things to share about Cammers on Nitro that he raced. For another day.
Good luck from all of us to everybody at Beaver. Hope the records fall and of course, please have a safe and fun race
Thanks now,
Tom
Busy
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"Next reveal SOHC 57 Ranchero"....This I got'a see. 8)
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I see that over on the FE Forum C5HM has uncovered some more information regarding the SOHC running in 1964 at Daytona:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/message/1462404898/More+NASCAR+Cammer+Data
Seems that Earl Wade was giving me the straight scoop when he told me about the SOHC running a test session at Daytona in 1964, although there's no way to verify the speeds he was quoting. Nevertheless, I'm glad that Earl had this right. It reminded me of an old magazine I had from 1964 with an early version of the SOHC installed in a 1964 Galaxie. After I dug it up it turned out to be CARS magazine, from November 1964. I've scanned it and reprinted it below.
The article shows one of the early SOHC engines with the spark plugs coming in at the bottom of the valve cover, instead of the top. Also, if you look very carefully at the pictures of the driver's side of the block from underneath on page 4, you will not see a sideoiler oiling passage. Its hard to tell from the scanned photo, but from the original photo in the magazine it definitely does not appear to be there. Definitely an early 427 block, not a sideoiler, which I found very interesting.
Another thing I noticed is the front cover, which looks completely different than the production style front covers, which had the inspection plates on the front.
Another thought, pure speculation, is what SOHC engine ran at Daytona in 1964? Given magazine lead times, this magazine would have probably come out in September, and the article written in June or July. I wonder if the engine that ran at Daytona in 1964 was the early version? Earl told me it was the later version with the revised spark plug location and sideoiler block, but I wonder...
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/cars1164cover.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/cars1164p1.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/cars1164p2.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/cars1164p3.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/cars1164p4.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/cars1164p5.jpg)
(http://fepower.net/Photos/Posts/cars1164p6.jpg)
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Did anyone notice on page 70 of the Cars article the statement that "Heads are separate from the aluminum intermediate adapter housing that carries the cam and rockers"? Could this be a mistake? Was the author confused about the aluminum front cover for the chain and sprockets? Interesting.
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I have that magazine also and never noticed the fact that they're using external oil return lines on the heads. Obviously this was before the sideoiler block was designed, or at least finished. That also sort of confirms what I've always heard, that the sideoiler block was originally designed to support the SOHC platform and incorporating it into the standard 427 was sort of an afterthought.
Has anyone ever seen a set of those early heads, beyond the one engine that is known to exist with cast iron SOHC headers? I wonder how many sets were cast and if any still exist?
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I know a collector who has some parts of the early engines and he is looking for some parts to complete a display engine. He is not intending on running the engine, and he not the type who ever sells anything. Right now he is looking for one more head and some valve covers where the spark plugs are near the exhaust side.
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Did anyone notice on page 70 of the Cars article the statement that "Heads are separate from the aluminum intermediate adapter housing that carries the cam and rockers"? Could this be a mistake? Was the author confused about the aluminum front cover for the chain and sprockets? Interesting.
I think there were a few mistakes in that article, including the one you pointed out. They were only looking at the engine from the outside, and admitted they were making educated guesses, so they could have easily thought there was a separate housing for the cams and rocker shafts. They also guessed head studs tightened from the underside of the valley (wrong), "chains" for driving the cams (rather than a single chain), and the water pump bolts up to the "cam drive tower", whatever that is. They were probably looking behind the water pump and saw part of the stub cam cover, and figured it went through to drive the water pump or something. The engine was kind of a mystery to most folks back then...
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Pictures of an early Cammer head:
http://s134.photobucket.com/user/stuffnpics/library/sohchead
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He is still looking for some more early parts for his display engine, and some more pictures of the front accessories, like the alternator brackets and front pulleys.
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I would bet a couple dollars that the 64 Gal in the magazine article was the same one that was sold to Gordo Cooper for $1 for publicity, and he drove it for an extended period on the street
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The testing in the Lorenzen car was / is no secret, pretty well known and documented, as was the 64 Galaxie going from Passino to Gordo Cooper for $1. The SOHC got effectively legislated out by huge weight breaks against it which would have made it look like the Hammy cars "beat" them- just like NHRA did with Jenkins' small block Vega, just gave it a huge weight break compared to just about everything else, Hammys, B9s and SOHCs, and in particular the Cleveland, to make the Chebbie fans happy as it appeared the Vega "beat" the others, when actually, as with 'ol Hillary, the fix was in
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I would bet a couple dollars that the 64 Gal in the magazine article was the same one that was sold to Gordo Cooper for $1 for publicity, and he drove it for an extended period on the street
The Gordon Cooper car was a 1966 Galaxie, so it's not the same car as the '64 in the Cars magazine article. Copies of internal Ford documents ( maybe belonging to Dennis K.? ) have been posted on the other forum and the internet that include the Cooper car's VIN.
(http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff437/red0wl/gordon%20cooper%20sohc.jpg) (http://s1235.photobucket.com/user/red0wl/media/gordon%20cooper%20sohc.jpg.html)
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ahh schidt, what was I thinking- of course the Gordo car was a '66
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When the cammer was first being talked about, I had some contacts at EEE that made it possible for me to slowly accumulate the parts to put an engine together. Remember that the earliest plans were to offer a 'kit' that would convert to OHC. My stuff was early enough to have the low plug placement. I never did get everything together and when I moved I sold the parts for a nominal sum---even at that time. :(
KS
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Sorry we have been racing and busy, Thanks for the emails, calls and comments here. The guys get the news from us and it is very nice,
Over on the old forum we explained about magazines, and how the FORD teams told people enough to,,,,insert joke,,,be dangerous, or enough to kind of get a glimpse, but in no way at all, how we built the engines inside, or what key parts helped the FE run better, None of it was for sale, or available unless FORD backed you and you had HM or HMS doing your work, under a deal with Detroit
Putting the methods in a magazine was against all rules, because it helped the competition out fox you
The build of the SOHC Daytona car is in no book, it is in our data base and FORD's, and of course, old Bobby S, Bruce, Art,Mike,Jr and a few others were there, and a small gang who re did the same builds for the following years, had the mentors guiding each piece, and we sold these builds, to later owners.
This engine was thoroughly blue printed by changing certain parts and specs. Cams were a big deal and we had 5 vendors, plus many selections from Detroit,,,,we call those X cams and we still have a big crate of FE X cams.
The early SOHCs got the heads ported, the intake matched, the pistons reworked, domes, oiling and often, lightening....rods got fussed with, the big end dimensions reduced often, more crush, lots of oil pump work, we ran more pressure than many, the blocks were relieved in a special way, trick for the era and all dyno tested, and Detroit, HM, and HMS moved the cam timing a lot to look for best power in a given RPM range. Yes, the cams did get strobed
Ford was so trick, we actually built a test cell, shared with SHELBY, that measure crank shaft deflection under high load.....
Primitive by todays standards but accurate in what it observed.
Very nice articles shared by C5. He has a nice archive and our original hope was to share our archives with more authors since few had access to get in to our place, and few were in that shop then due to FORDS secrecy agreements. Even when we had about 135 men, talking out of school was a major no no,,,,,like, your fired bad.
ISKY,CROWER,ENGLE,HOWARD,MOON and MADDEN ground hundreds of special SOHC cams for many classes out West,, and CRANE made awesome sticks, and even had a nice shop here for some time, Crane Cams West.
You have to remember this, well we respect it a lot. The great OHIO GEORGE had the ultimate A Gas Gasser. His Willys with a SOHC was a dominant car that killed the Dodge boys in droves. He set the standard for a well dressed, professional crew and rig too. He was the fastest of the Gassers, and won so much, using ISKY cams for his SOHC. Old ED has all of the specs still, and his boys still do a lot of SOHC cams, I send them crane billets to get re ground to a nostalgia lobe profile sometimes.
Many are still around and we hope the hard work from back when can get passed won for the future FE racers. That is kind of why we started posting, and to respect the old Ford guys
Must note, by 68,9, 70, general Kinetics had some awesome SOHC cams, as did others,,,,Lunati is awesome. DYNO DON won with General Kinetics cams in some of his engines, and with CRANES in others.
The chassis was all in house here, at Stroppe. This was before Holman merged with us.
The key chassis guys did it as I described before, Bruce and Bobby have a lot to share here, for later
This car is a 'tribute',,not a 100 point resto.
It has Art Chrismans finger prints on it too, he worked for us, running the famed AUTOLITE Dyno inside our complex. Art is a old friend of many of our guys and we all raced nostalgia for decades too. What a great guy. Sold his old race cars for millions a few years back. Told me he wanted to have some money for the grandkids futures to be better.
Art was our neighbor, so was Jack, in the 60's. North Long Beach had a lot of local Drag cars, a big Service center Speed Shop, LAKEWOOD industries, and Stroppes, reath, Venolia, Delta Crank, all the magneto guys, MickeyThompsons, and many others. He and Jack did it all.
And better than most. Art is getting better and a wonderful man. He was at a recent event, in a chair. He is improving and well cared for. Our Bobby Spears is a close friend, so we get the news. Art loves my kid brother, calls him,,,Beau..cool
Lots for later
OH,,,,Mr Bikini foto boy vanished,,,,must have jumped the shark or something....think the talent cooked his lens or something hahahahaa
We have a veterans charity we fund and provide offices for. The girls were at this event, maybe 20 helpers, and they were all so pretty too....if we get time, we will add the bikini gals,,,,too fun and funny, Nitro A Go-Go......ha ha
Thanks guys
Email me questions if it can help ya build a faster FE
Please give me, and my pals, a while to reply
Thanks JAY for running a very productive and thought provoking site here
The 57 SOHC Ranchero is running,,,,more on it as time allows.
This Stock Car,,,,has pulled up next to a lot of local sports cars tooling down Pacific Coast Highway...rattling their poor expensive windows a bit, poppin away on race gas. Then blowing their fancy pants doors off, old school. Boy that ruins Joe Porsche's Sunday,,,,
FORD tough......smokin 'em hard for Henry (Ford)
See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya' Have some SOHC smoke and all that....just hilarious...
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"Next reveal SOHC 57 Ranchero"....This I got'a see. 8)
There has been a white 57 Ranchero with a 427 SOHC engine and 4 speed driving around the Northwest for many years now. Among his many well known SOHC powered cars, including at least 2 street rods, a pulling truck, the "Assassin" AA/FD Nitro Cammer, Greens white 57 Ranchero is regularily seen parked nearby the Top Fuel Cammer. Quite a sleeper that Ranchero, stock body with narrow tires , complete with "spinner" wheel covers and whitewall tires. Many would expect to find something like a 312 with3 2 barrel carbs, instead, when the stock flat hood is open, wall to wall Cammer! A couple of years ago, at the Seattle NHRA National event, I even saw die hard MoPar Pro Stock racers Roy and Allen Johnson spending quite a bit of time eyballing the car, er truck.