FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Yellow Truck on April 26, 2016, 06:58:32 PM
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Gentlemen (I don't think I've seen a lady post on this forum),
I put the engine together, got the oil pan on it, and decided to run the oil pump with a cordless drill to see how it oiled. Well, it is pumping a lot of oil. I have BBM heads with T&D roller rockers, hydraulic roller lifters, and I put the restrictors in oil passages under the rocker stands. It is also running a Melling high volume pump.
I am running the cheapest 10W30 I could find because I'll dump it and the filter before we install and fire the engine, but it is not even warm so it is fairly viscous. I noted that without the valve covers I was getting oiling to all the rockers, but it was gushing a bit from the center ones.
I put the covers on and ran it for a little more than a minute and the resistance fell off, so I checked (seemed it wasn't pushing much oil), and the heads had a LOT of oil in them (this picture was taken after a good bit of the oil had drained back down into the pan). (http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/410dyno/2016-04-26%2017.25.40%20HDR.jpg)
It took a couple of minutes to drain back, and then in a little over a minute I had emptied the oil pan - it had about 4.5 liters in it.
Is this normal, or should I be alarmed?
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What's the orifice size in the restrictors? I have had good results with 0.070". That does seem like a lot of oil to the top end...
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Jay,
The invoice from Barry indicates that they are 0.060 restrictors. When I was installing them I noticed that they had a little shoulder on one end, but one of them fell all the way down the oil passage, while the other stayed up at the top.
Both heads are filling with oil, so I don't think that was the issue. Clearly there is more oil coming out the middle rockers but there is oil coming out of all of them.
I've never done this before, so I'm wondering if the oil moves around the engine differently when the crank and cam are not rotating?
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I know it's a simple thing, but sometimes overlooked, are you sure the shafts are not installed with the oil holes up? If Barry built the engine, I'm sure he installed them correctly, but just thought I'd throw that out there.
Even with the oil being cold, taking a couple minutes to drain back is way to long, in my opinion. If the engine was running, it would be even worse. I'm of the mindset now that every FE built needs to have the drainbacks contoured, smoothed and ground slightly to get around the head bolts. That's a major restrictive point and is what stops the oil from draining back. It's important to get plenty of oil to the valvetrain for several reasons. It's also important to get it away and back to the pan as quickly as possible.
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Doug,
Barry's not on the hook for the build, he prepared the heads and the rotating assembly. I'm not sure what you mean by the "shafts not installed with the oil holes up" - the T&D rocker assembly installation instructions don't mention oil holes other than the bolt with the tapered shoulder, which didn't apply to the ones I bought. So - I'm not sure what you are referring to.
I am curious - I assume many others have done what I described - does the oil move to the heads in greater volume if the engine is not turning? I think I'll go put a level on it to see if that may be influencing oil movement.
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The T&Ds bleed a lot of oil. The .060 restriction is about "right". Theoretically you could block off the oil feed and lube through the pushrods - or run restricted or even solid ball pushrods to restrict it further if really necessary. I kinda like to have a bit of oil heading through the shafts though - and a bit heading into the pushrod cup.
What kind of oil pressure were you getting while "on the drill"?
The oil will drain back faster once warm, and I usually add a quart to the pan recommendations if dyno testing shows a dip at the upper end of the pull.
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Your engine stand also puts the engine level, not like it'd sit in the car.
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Also not sure about the drain location, gasket clearance and layout for the BBM heads. Worth looking into.
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I checked the engine on the stand, it is dead level, and the oil was moving pretty slowly along the head before I put the covers on.
I don't have a way to check the pressure on the drill, the gauge is installed in the truck and the copper tube won't run that far! Any cheap and quick suggestions?
We didn't check the gasket fit to the bottom of the heads, just to the block, and that was good. I can't compare the BBM heads to anything else, but the drain back holes are in the outside corners of the heads. I assume if there was a problem with the design it would have been mentioned here as some members are already running them, and mine came through Barry's capable hands.
I think you are right that hot oil will drain quickly, I was mostly worried about how much oil was running into the heads.
I'll ask again, is there a difference in the movement of oil with the engine turning over vs just spinning the pump? Wondered if more of it would pass through the cam to the crank when running. Obviously I can't see what is going on.
I will put additional oil in it when running, I only put in 5 liters, and then didn't notice the drain valve was open so spilled half a liter on the floor. I was doing this to make sure I was getting ENOUGH oil to the top end, now I'm worried I'm getting too much.
Since I'm running without baffles under the rocker covers I can check the oil in the top when it is hot, but at that point it will be completely buttoned up in the truck.
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I'm sure you're aware that the shafts have a hole to feed each individual rocker, and the holes should be at the bottom. If they're at the top of the shaft, where the rocker is unloaded, it's a free path for oil to escape. If they're at the bottom, it has the pressure of the rocker against the hole and the oil must force its way out. The rocker needs the hole at the bottom, at its pressure point.
I suppose the rotating assembly in motion may make some difference in flow, but what you see in the head now is likely what you'll see with it running, maybe more or less so depending on how fast you were spinning the pump. The pump will be turning half speed of idle RPM, at idle.
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With the oil hot and all running towards the drain as Drew pointed out, I doubt you'll have issues with it.
I have never ran T&D's and oiled through the heads (I oil through pushrods), so I can't give data to compare to. I typically don't see that much standing oil when I prime though.
I would get it in the car and run it, then check things out. As Barry pointed out, you can always restrict further, or switch to pushrod oiling.
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Plumbing supply. Pressure gauge. Screws right into the filter adapter. About five bucks.
I'd just run it myself....
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If the restrictors are 0.060" as Barry says I think I'd just run it too, and pay attention to the oil pressure. Sounds like the issue is slow drainage rather than too much oil to the heads. The oil drains go past the head bolts on a wedge FE, and I've had Edelbrock heads where I haven't felt comfortable without opening up those drains a little bit. I don't know what the BBM heads look like in that area. Also the intake should have reliefs in the face where they bolt to the heads to allow that oil an easy path into the lifter valley. You wouldn't be able to check any of this without pulling the intake back off, which would suck of course ::) Run it and watch the oil pressure.
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Thanks you guys, I'm probably just suffering from rookie nerves. I will watch the oil in the heads when it is warm - I don't have baffles under the rocker covers so I can monitor it.
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Barry - in answer to your question it is making 70 psi on the drill. The drill is a Makita 12v, so nothing that fast. I think it is rated up to 1,300 rpm but it is turning slower than that.
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70psi is right in the zone for normal.
Let it rip!
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I will. Sadly will take a week to get it into the truck so I can start buttoning it up. Kind of driving me crazy.