FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: TorinoBP88 on March 16, 2016, 04:44:57 PM
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In light of the engine failure i had on Sunday, dropped an exhaust valve from a used set of CJ C8OE heads (unknown valves at this point) and beat up my 'new' 416 bottom end (link to story at: ( http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1458099200/last-1458162466/View+Thread )),
My question is one that has been asked a dozen times before (but my perspective is different now!):
1) Do i rebuild these CJ heads (or a set of C6AE-R heads) with all new parts new guides and exhaust seats at least,
or
2) Do i buy a set of Edelbrock heads (or save up a little more) and get Survival or BT heads.
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#2 gets my vote.
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Sorry to hear about the engine failure. I saw your post on the FE Forum and wondered about the failure's train of events. I have never seen a valve just break in half without contact of some sort. Not saying it didn't happen, just wondering if you saw any other evidence of contact, for example a bent pushrod, that may have indicated piston to valve contact prior to the break. Also, was this a hydraulic lifter engine? If so, are the clips still in the top of the lifter where the failure occurred?
Anyway, where you are now it seems to me that you would be money ahead buying a set of the Edelbrocks, swapping on your springs, and going from there. Good luck on the repair.
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Does anyone make a set of aftermarket cast iron FE heads?
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I just did a set of CJ heads.By the time I had new seats installed,had them surfaced got all new springs and retainers and new valves I probably could have bought new aluminum heads..Customer wanted the stock iron heads or I would have done it..
I am not a fan of CJ heads with hardened exhaust seats.Unless the head is shallow (counter)bored and a thin seat is installed the seat support is not 100%...JMO.
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Does anyone make a set of aftermarket cast iron FE heads?
No, no aftermarket cast iron heads are available for the FE.
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Jay,
Well careful looking and I found the exhaust pushrod was bent about 0.020".
More carbon on valve stem than I expected to see. Probably from the other guy running this 750 carb which is on the rich side. There was a slight witness on stem of possible seize in the house. Stem broke like glass.
Found valves are all trimmed down hollow Sodium Valves labeled S 3-9! I missed this... I never would have run them had I known!!! Wish my machinist would have replaced the valves when I asked him to. I guess he thought he was helping me save $$.
Live and learn.
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Ouch! Yes, when new those sodium filled valves were the latest and greatest. Yet, years later, they ate away inside way too many great engines, Cammer's included, as they were time bombs just waiting to go off.
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They might not be trimmed down, they made lightweights in CJ size too. Pip, I have a set, IIRC, of C8's that are pretty fresh that I don't need that could go pretty cheap. I do have an extra set of Ebocks but not sure if I want to give them up yet- if I sell a couple other things I'll probably hang on to them
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As much as I love the old iron, I think I'd go for the Edelbrocks also. Those heads are still saveable though for someone who needs them.
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MeanGene, What does IIRC mean. C8 heads, are those chambers on the small side for a 428 (or a 462 stroker?) I would hope they are 8 bolt exhaust a well?
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I'm not MG but...
'If I Remember Correctly' will get you in the ballpark.
Last I knew you could get iron heads from Dove but you'd undoubtedly have to order them specially made and it would probably take a year or more to get them. And to what purpose?
Iron heads are, by this time, only for those who MUST use them due to some sort of class rule.
KS
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The curse of the sodium filled exhaust valve! Sorry to hear Pippin. Have you talked Keith Craft? I saw an ad he was running last year about offering CNC porting for iron heads. Maybe he can hook you up with a ready to run CNC ported iron head? And save you a few bucks.
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Iron heads are, by this time, only for those who MUST use them due to some sort of class rule.
KS
Or for the stubborn, or the ones who just want to prove a point, or who just want an all Ford iron engine, or are nostalgic. or.... :)
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IIRC means you might have a touch of CRS- and hopefully not full-fledged CRAFT...
Pretty sure the heads are C8AE-H's, eight bolt set that was built fresh for a jet boat and only run a little. Should be able to swap to your springs and put 'em on
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What was the reasoning behind filling them with sodium?
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Heat dissapation. Spelling??
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Still don't get it. How would a different substance trapped all round help heat dissipation? Must be missing something.
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A valve with a hollow sodium filled stem dissipates heat faster than a valve with a solid metal stem. I believe the sodium conducts heat better than the metal around it.
At running temperatures the sodium liquefies in the valve stem. So you have the heat of combustion transferring heat to the head of the valve, the metal in the valve conducts heat into the stem. The stem conducts it into the liquid sodium where it's conducted away from the head of the valve up toward the other end, and then into the guides, cylinder head, and even the rockers. All this to keep the valve head cooler. I think sodium filled valves are still used in some applications. Maybe turbocharged industrial applications???
Anyway. I think the whole idea is that liquid sodium is a very good heat conductor.
Someone who knows more about it can say it better and/or correct me, but I think that's the jist of it.
paulie
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Still don't get it. How would a different substance trapped all round help heat dissipation? Must be missing something.
Maybe this is more directed to your question. Think of the liquid sodium as a short cut for the heat. It allows the heat to travel up the valve stem faster than if it were solid metal. The heat still has to travel from the sodium through the outer metal of the valve stem, but the sodium gives it a short cut from the valve head to the end of the stem.
JMO,
paulie
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Heat dissapation. Spelling??
Think about it like the insulation in a wall in a house. but the other way around
The insulation is there trapped all around to stop heat transfer
Insulations heat transfer= Low
Sodium heat transfer= high
And like this to change the state of the sodium from solid to liquid form it
takes energi (heat) Like with transforming ice to water
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And like this to change the state of the sodium from solid to liquid form it
takes energi (heat) Like with transforming ice to water
I think the phase change occurs as soon as the engine is warm. Sodium goes from a solid to a liquid at around 98C or around 208F.
So I think once an engine is up to operating temperature the exhaust valves are going to stay above that temp. So no phase change inside the valve stem in the running (and warmed up) engine. I could be wrong about that though.
paulie
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Here is a video of sodium explosion in water !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FK-HA_5mAAI
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I remember we had it at school in the cemistry lab
it was stored in kerosene
Some one stole some of it, and we take it down
to the river and filled a coffe can with water and
dumped the sodium in the can and nothing hapened
This was late autum and almost freezing temp
Some genius said lets piss in the can so it gets warmer
He started to piss and seconds later it exploded ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Hes running around screaming I got piss in my mouth Igot piss in my mouth
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Great story, had me laughing. At least it was his own piss!
So it was to conduct heat away from the head and into the stems faster........hmmmmmmmm.
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In light of the engine failure i had on Sunday, dropped an exhaust valve from a used set of CJ C8OE heads (unknown valves at this point) and beat up my 'new' 416 bottom end (link to story at: ( http://www.network54.com/Forum/74182/thread/1458099200/last-1458162466/View+Thread )),
My question is one that has been asked a dozen times before (but my perspective is different now!):
1) Do i rebuild these CJ heads (or a set of C6AE-R heads) with all new parts new guides and exhaust seats at least,
or
2) Do i buy a set of Edelbrock heads (or save up a little more) and get Survival or BT heads.
Some pretty good deals on BBM's right now.
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If you're an Amazon Prime member, get the Amazon Store Card. I got a set of Edlebroks and used the finance interest free for 12 months with the Amazon Card.
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Two things about the sodium exhaust valves. The valve is much lighter from being hollow, and the sodium turns to a liquid at body temperature. It pulls heat away from the valve head faster, and being lighter, only needs 90-110# seat pressures to keep from bouncing off the seats at high rpm. Less weight, less spring pressures, equals more horsepower available from same camshaft profile. Joe-JDC
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Pretty sure the exhaust valves in my 39 Dodge were sodium filled and I wouldn't be surprised if the Hercules engine for the Diamond T had them as well..Were talking low reving,light spring pressure flats heads tho...
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I do remember reading that hollow stemmed valves were first used in pre-WW1 (no typo!) and WWI radial air cooled engines for all the reasons mentioned, plus one. In heavy use, apparently the stems would grow laterally enough to seize the valve in the guide and kill a cylinder. Not a good idea when your at 7,000 feet! Once warmed up, the valve heat at the stem would stabilize, hence no more seizing.
This source says 1919 but I'm sure engine before then had them as well.
http://www.aucountry.com/ACA_Folder/Technical/Valves.html
Btw, most light-medium aircraft engines like Lycoming still use sodium valves to this day.
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...but they were much thicker stem, and the L6 was about 120#s open, maybe #50 closed (well not that low, but i could open the valves with my hand when the head was on the bench, and it was built by a reputable shop, on and the cam lift was like 0.39 or 0.44, something really small.
Anyway, i decided in the interest of time and speed, to rebuild my spare 428 engine 100% stock CJ spec (0.030 over bore, std/std crank and rods), down to the stock CJ cam, except the intake will be either a correct for my 64 Galaxie C4 cast iron 4v (gulp!) that i have or the PI intake, and will use the Sanderson Headers. The reason for the stock cast iron idea was it matched the power range of the GT/CJ cam. Also it has a fill pipe so i can run the stock red Baldy round FORD valve covers i have from a 1958 Fairlane 352 car.
I am picking up my 100% reconditioned stock 1966 heads that match the 1966 428 Tbird engine i have. Valves are totally new stock chromed valves, 0.15 over stems so the guides could be reamed out, not requiring inserts. Hard exhaust seats. I had the heads, total cost $700.
I have a new 428 balance flywheel coming in the mail. Jegs recommended the PRW SFI rated one with the removable weight (so i can put it on a 390), overnight shipping included with CA tax was $330. I hope the quality is ok for a driver. New water pump and fuel pump and MSC items. $200.
I will then find another block (i dont think its worth it to sleeve my broken 1968 block. Then I rebuild either build another 410/428 or a 445/462 with a stroker crank, and will use Jay's intake adapter, timing cover, the hot solid cam i have (or my 270H i have or a 282S style but on a 112 separation depending on the intended use.
PS i have a set of usable 0.030 over 428 pistons available now, but with domes cut down about 1/16 or 3/32 for sale. Might be useful if someone offset ground a crank? Not sure if they are cut enough for a 4.125 crank, i need to measure them. Anyway price is $1.00 for the set of 8 (but you have to pay shipping). I know this is a classified add, but i figure for $1.00 i could get away with it here.
Anyway, i hope to get the engine together this weekend, and with any luck, into the car. But with no garage, and family activities, i am not sure how car i can get.
PS, i want to mention the importance of Coors beer: my neighbor came over to see what was going on, now my motor progress was going, and he offered me a cool one. So i chilled out for a minute before put on the oil pan. As i showed him the progress, i realized i had forgotten the oil pump drive rod!!! Wow, that was a close one. If not for the neighbor and a Coors, i would have had a big headache later!
Also during assembly i found that one reason the motor may have been pulled out of the truck it was in was because the damper had slipped! It was 20+* off! It must have been confusing to try to time to get to run right!
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OK, realizing I don't have budget or time to build a 462 with alum heads just now, and I inventoried my parts, I decided to build a 100%stock 428 with a CJ cam and the PI intake. Infact I was going to even run the cast iron C4 intake, but I didn't have the bypass pipe and other plugs on hand.
I had my stock C6AE-R heads 100% rebuilt, used 0.015 oversized stems so we did not have to install guild inserts. Hard exhaust seats and new stock GT/CJ spring, 95# seat, 240 open.
I got it all together yesterday. Today I hope to pull the broken block out of the car.
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Sounds like a great match for the car, and I like the PI intake for a stout cruiser.
Any chance to get headers on it, or maybe cast iron Ford shorties?
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Car iron shorties would be a great match, but...
For now I have Sanderson ceramic coated 1 3/4 tube Shorties, I like them OK. 3" collector, but they came with 2.5 reducers, so it's 2.5" pipes down to under car, step up to 3" under car, 2.5 H pipe at back of transmission, 3 " magnaflow box straight through offset mufflers, then 2.5" over axel and exit to rear corners with turndowns, looks like stock.
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That's good enough for me...I was mostly wondering if you were going to use stock manifolds, that should be a nice running machine!