FE Power Forums
FE Power Forums => FE Technical Forum => Topic started by: Drew Pojedinec on March 04, 2016, 12:21:05 PM
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445 being built, aluminum BBM heads.
-Torque for spark plugs and intake?
I currently have the plugs torqued to 13 ft lbs, intake to 15 ft lbs
-Where to find oil fill cap for manifold?
-where to find a good inline 3/8 x 3/8 PCV for back of manifold? (I currently have 3/8 barb from manifold)
-BJ/BK carbs or dual Quickfuels?
I like the idea of adjusting the QF's, but absolutely love the look of BJ/BK reproductions. Just looking for any first had experience on this one. From looking at previous builds, it just seems like folks have more trouble getting the Qf's tuned.
-Anything wrong with the idea of breaking in a new engine with a known good 4v carb and just blocking off the other 4v holes?
Appreciated as always any input.
Drew
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I can't help with the other stuff, but I've used 2 sets of the reproduction BJ/BK carbs now, and I like them. Out of the box, they tend to be rich, but that's probably a good thing. I haven't had any issues with them, but I still like to take them apart and put in non-stick gaskets and give them a thorough cleaning and checking. I have not had any street driveability or WOT issues either. For hotter engines, they do need basic tuning principles applied, but for stockish builds they're pretty darn close out of the box.
I wouldn't be afraid of breaking an engine in using them both. Done it twice now and just the basic 1 1/4-1 1/2 turns out on the idle mixture screws was good to go until after break-in. If you only used one carb, I'd probably use an IR temp gun to keep an eye on exhaust temps for possible distribution issues. I know they idle on one carb from the factory, but at 2000-2500 RPMs you may see some issues creep up.
Edit to add that when I used them for break-ins, I tied the carbs together so that they both opened about the same amount. I did that because I was afraid that with no load the 2nd carb would not be opening at all and I wanted to avoid distribution issues. I don't know if it was necessary, but that's how I did it.
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Appreciate the input.
I figured on breaking the engine in with a QF 735 I already have, mounting it backwards in the forward position for distribution reasons. I'm not hung up on the idea, but it might make the install go faster.
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I have just installed a pair of Survival's custom QFT 750's on my 406/462. To the untrained eye, they look very much like a factory set up. I haven't fired them up yet, so don't know how they are calibrated for my engine. Here are a few work in progress pics to show what they look like.
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/toddkeen/image_13.jpeg) (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/toddkeen/media/image_13.jpeg.html)
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/toddkeen/image_12.jpeg) (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/toddkeen/media/image_12.jpeg.html)
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I don't think I've ever torqued a spark plug LOL. I always put them on a 1/2" drive speed handle and snug them up. Maybe my speed handle is calibrated. :)
As for the intake bolts, I'd go 20-25 lb-ft.
The Quick Fuels will have more tune-ability. I think a lot of the issues with guys and the Quick Fuels is that they buy them straight from QFT with universal settings. Our QFT carbs always come from us, after have been disassembled, washed in a sonic cleaner, then reassembled per engine specs. The good thing about custom carbs is that you can get them in a variety of finishes, so essentially they can be made to look like the old Holleys.
I would be very leery about firing the engine with just the front carb on, as it could make it hard on the rear cylinders to pull fuel in.
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I don't think I've ever torqued a spark plug LOL
5.4's taught me otherwise.
Thanks for the rest of the info Brent, Doug, and Todd, I appreciate it.
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Some fasteners need torque specs......mains, rods, heads, cam bolt, etc. to get the proper stretch. However, on others, it's often best to have a calibrated hand. I have customers who try to bolt an oil pan on with two oil pan gaskets and a windage tray, and ask me for a torque spec....good way to find a leak.
As for spark plugs, those horrid 5.4L modular engines are in a different realm than our beloved FE's. They are plagued with not having enough threads in the heads and having a totally different style of plug.
Torquing at 13 lb-ft is most likely close to a calibrated speed handle. However, in the heat of battle, or changing plugs on the dyno, I have just never used a torque wrench. It will also depend on whether you use a drop of oil on the threads, anti-seize, etc. I used to use never-seize on the plugs, but then it can make it hard to read the plugs (heat range) so I quit doing that.
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I tighten my spark plugs by feel. You can feel it bottom out and then you can feel the metal washer/gasket squish. When the "squish" stops, I stop.
JMO,
paulie
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I have just installed a pair of Survival's custom QFT 750's on my 406/462. To the untrained eye, they look very much like a factory set up. I haven't fired them up yet, so don't know how they are calibrated for my engine. Here are a few work in progress pics to show what they look like.
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/toddkeen/image_13.jpeg) (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/toddkeen/media/image_13.jpeg.html)
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/toddkeen/image_12.jpeg) (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/toddkeen/media/image_12.jpeg.html)
FYI, those aren't the QFT carbs. Barry used to build them from Holley parts like the ones you have until they would no longer sell him what he needed. Maybe that has changed and he went back to Holleys, but the QFT carbs do have a unique look. They still look great, but not quite as close to the BJ/BK as what you have.
Personally if it wasn't going to be an absolutely 100% correct looking engine I would probably go with the QFT just for the adjustability.
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From what I have read on various forums the BJ/BK carbs are just about identical in jetting and air bleed sizing to the common Holley 1850...the older versions.
For you guys that run these on 500 HP FE engines how far do you end up from the stock jetting going richer or leaner?
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I have just installed a pair of Survival's custom QFT 750's on my 406/462. To the untrained eye, they look very much like a factory set up. I haven't fired them up yet, so don't know how they are calibrated for my engine. Here are a few work in progress pics to show what they look like.
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/toddkeen/image_13.jpeg) (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/toddkeen/media/image_13.jpeg.html)
(http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp89/toddkeen/image_12.jpeg) (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/toddkeen/media/image_12.jpeg.html)
Are you going to run carb spacers under those at some point and if so open or 4 hole? Looks great!
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Specification sheet with new Edelbrock heads will give 15# as the proper torque. Ford uses that on their 5.0 HO specifications, also. Unless otherwise stated in the plug box, use a small amount of anti-seize on long reach plugs going into aluminum heads to prevent seizure. Some of the new plugs come with a coating that does not require the anti-seize, so read the instructions before installation. Joe-JDC
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Specification sheet with new Edelbrock heads will give 15# as the proper torque. Ford uses that on their 5.0 HO specifications, also. Unless otherwise stated in the plug box, use a small amount of anti-seize on long reach plugs going into aluminum heads to prevent seizure. Some of the new plugs come with a coating that does not require the anti-seize, so read the instructions before installation. Joe-JDC
Thank you very much, Joe.
I'm used to having specs for EVERY bolt at work (Might be why the service manuals are 40lbs).
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From what I have read on various forums the BJ/BK carbs are just about identical in jetting and air bleed sizing to the common Holley 1850...the older versions.
For you guys that run these on 500 HP FE engines how far do you end up from the stock jetting going richer or leaner?
Had to jet 4 sizes down on my 497hp 427 (stock stroke, 4.250 bore). It's still a bit rich down low but is right on in its powerband.
And with the 1850's you don't get the progressive linkage hook-up or the connected secondary caps, although they could probably be modified. You really want the progressive linkage on a street engine.
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Are you going to run carb spacers under those at some point and if so open or 4 hole? Looks great!
I will initially no spacer, but plan to try a 4 hole spacer at some stage.
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15 lb-ft sounds pretty low for a 3/8" sized bolt going into a helicoil, and is in-line for a SBF intake bolt torque, which is a 5/16" fastener. If any bolt on an FE should be tight, it should be the intake bolts.....
Joe's right on the spark plugs. If you buy the Autolite race plugs (AR numbers), they should be coated.
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I agree with Brent
25 lbs for the intake, same as Ford spec with an alum intake. Iron is higher. My hunch is 15 will let the gasket move
15 for the spark plugs sounds good, but I am not sure I have ever torqued one. Paulie gave you a good description of the feel, although of course that won't work with stock Ford heads and a tapered seat if other guys try it :)
Also, I use anti-seize on all bolts (or spark plugs) that go into aluminum, leftover from the old days with Chrysler K-cars and the Mitsu engine, you needed an impact wrench to get them out if you didn't. Don't go crazy though, barely enough is enough and keep it above the strap, too much is easy to get everywhere, a little dab on your finger wiped into the threads is all you need
I can't imagine that a single carb would cause an issue for break in, especially with the the front carb being backwards, the front carb's primaries aren't far off of a 2 barrel carb location.
HOWEVER, I think it's worrying about nothing. Slap them on, adjust them the way they are supposed to be and go for it. There shouldn't be any reason that you'll have a benefit with the nice parts you have. Unless the rear carb has a stuck float that bathes it, it's really only running on one other than a little idle circuit fuel anyway.
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I think he was asking because he doesn't have the carb pair yet, he just has a single carb available to him for break-in.
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On the OE style carbs I experience is similar to that of Mr. Smith (or his is similar to mine - we ran one of his engines here and jetted the 2x4 setup). Seems closer to the 500HP range you are the better they feel - wilder engines are further from happy. They tend to range from rich to really rich, and be non-linear in response to jet changes, you get "what you want" at one end of the curve and only make it to "what you need" at the other. They want some bleed work, but changing bleeds is pretty tedious while on dyno since they are press in, and usually you get close enough to be OK with the simple jetting outcome.
The QFT stuff seems to deliver with a slightly fat but smoother curve, and are more linear and predictable in response to changes. You can throw some jet changes at them and they remain smooth throughout the RPM range. If you choose to shuffle bleeds they react predictably. I also preferred the cosmetics of the older stuff we had made from Holley parts but a bit of a sibling rivalry makes them no longer available. The newer ones look a little different, have a few added features, and work very well.
You can run one carb, but I don't really know why to...
I am in the habit of putting a tiny amount of nickel anti-seize on the threads of every spark plug. Just one getting stuck will screw up your entire afternoon. Especially in an engine bay where you can't even see the darn things and you have to remove them by braille. Tighten until you can feel the gasket crush a bit. After running you'll probably find them feeling loose, especially on aluminum head motors. Snug then up, but a gentle touch - no muscle exhibitions - you are going to want to remove them someday...and its amazing how tight stuff feels when you have a shock tower and valve covers in the way. Ross is spot on with the taper plug comment.
I don't torque the intake bolts anymore - can't even get anything other than a hand wrench on some of them anyways. But I am certain that we are tighter than 15. Probably closer to 25-30. Put a wrench on them after running for a while and you'll find they all are asking for an extra little snugging as things settle in.
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Usually a closed-end wrench on intake bolts here too. Maybe a torque wrench on the end bolts that you can reach easily.
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I think he was asking because he doesn't have the carb pair yet, he just has a single carb available to him for break-in.
Pretty much that. Entire engine will be done a month before carbs are available. I am leaving to go to work at an LNG terminal here in a few days, and will be gone most likely until the end of April.
When I get back I figured on pulling the 429 out, test fitting a C4AE engine block with junk heads and headers to see how everything fits and adjust as needed. Figured it would totally kill me if I have the engine fully assembled and installed and lack the carbs.... would make it hard to go back to work and wait another month :P
Intake bolts will be snugged up a dozen time as I used BT intake gaskets. I really like the material they are made out of. At work we use this material and call them "clay gaskets."
They stand up really well to engine parts that shift when hot/cold, but being so hard they often require several bolt checks after a few hot/cold cycles.
Either way, thanks for the input one and all.
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You could use the multi adjustable primary metering blocks with the older carbs and tune the emulsion bleeds to get a better fuel curve. Why they anodize those blocks red instead of the Holley gold I don't know? Maybe "resale red" sells better! ;D
I have a pair of those and may use them later on my dual 600 setup after I get my WOT A/F where I want it.
On my,yes it's different, 427W I'm getting a nice 13.9-14.5 range with 67 primary jets along with the stock 1850 Idle Feed jet but with .070 Idle Air Bleeds for my idle and cruise setup. Changed to a 8.5 PV to get a 12.9 during heavy throttle without secondary kick in. On my setup with 300+cfm heads at my .600 lift the 1850's were lean as setup to stock specs.
I machined all main body sealing surfaces flat to prevent any issues with good gasket seal.
Enjoy talking carb setup with you FE guys cause this is where the knowledge of a dual quad setup is!
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Paulie gave you a good description of the feel, although of course that won't work with stock Ford heads and a tapered seat if other guys try it :)
Thanks for clarifying. I saw the heads were BBM. As usual, I use too few words. ::)
paulie
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Brent quote: "I have customers who try to bolt an oil pan on with two oil pan gaskets and a windage tray, and ask me for a torque spec....good way to find a leak. "
What's torqueing a double-gasket & windage tray sandwich to 9-11ft lbs. (from FoMoCo shop manual) have to do with finding a leak?
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Because you'll have one and it will be easy to find.
What does your Fomoco shop manual say about putting an Aviaid pan on a Pond aluminum block?